'CHARD Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 1 hour ago, LNER4479 said: Many thanks for that; hope you enjoyed the read. Sounds like we're kindred spirits then, at least in the sense of being inspired by the work of said Mr Jenkinson. I sometimes wonder whether modelling LMS/LMR subjects has been quite the same since his passing? It's no secret that I intend to apply The Principles (as they shall henceforth be known) to my Waverley Route conceit. When I've finished creating the layout space, I should have 9ft by approx 35ft, so folded figures of eight and ruling 1 in 75 gradients feature heavily in my planning brain. I'm really encouraged by your Swiss cheese approach to filling the space with layout. The principal contrast will be that I intend a continuous run to be an available default - taking in a few circuits of the room over several minutes. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted October 27, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2020 22 hours ago, St Enodoc said: That's right. All systems, except clockwork, only need (multiples of) two wires. Multiples being the operative word......my 2-wire system: (It's better now!). Tony 2 1 2 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted October 27, 2020 Author Share Posted October 27, 2020 That's just showing off (I think ... ?) 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted October 27, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2020 7 minutes ago, LNER4479 said: That's just showing off (I think ... ?) Probably! A key difference is that whereas you envisage multiple control positions I started by specifying that everything must be controlable from a single panel; whilst it has given me what I wanted, that decision cost a lot in wiring complexity, not to mention drums of cable! And now I'm trying to build in some duplicate control options to allow others to share the operation - so much for pre-planning. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted October 28, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2020 This is a photo from a few years ago under the junctions at the north end of our model of Citadel. This is DCC but there's still a lot more than two wires.... You can see the "only two wires" for the track power - red and blue at top right plus black for point motor common. The relays control route setting and signal setting, I'm not sure if all the signals were wired when this photo was taken though. It is actually quite pleasant working under the baseboards - they are 5ft off the tiled floor so I can sit comfortably on a chair. 9 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LNER4479 Posted November 1, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 1, 2020 (edited) Evening all, Nothing dramatic to report, although work continues. So thought I'd post a few current thoughts about stock matters. Have I ever mentioned, just once or twice, how much I like Stanier's Duchess pacifics?(!) Well, recent efforts for Shap in exhibition mode have resulted in a reasonable stud to call on for the time being, so time to turn attention to the next locos in the pecking order - the various permutations of the LMS three cylinder 4-6-0. Well, if the Duchesses are my fave loco, then the three cylinder types aren't far behind, in particular the Jubilee '5XP's (yes, I know they were 6P in BR days) with their wonderful empire and battleship names. So here is the current 'stockpile' or queue of 3-cyl 4-6-0s awaiting attention. Let's take a closer look. Heading up the cavalcade are two old split chassis Mainline rebuilt Patriots, neither of which I envisage being used in their current form. I know that the old split chassis are somewhat frowned upon but these will be 'layout locos' and, in my experience, if you get a 'good' split chassis mechanism, they're perfectly adequate with a splash of oil every now and then. I certainly don't have time to built new chassis for them all. An immediate advantage is that it's the same chassis for all these loco types, so mixing and matching will be the order of the day. The next loco in the line is a perfect case in point. This one is a 'bad 'un', never ran very well, so that's a simple chassis swap and then we'll get into the detail. I rather fancy 46159 'Royal Air Force', which was a WCML loco in BR days. Now, a couple of more individual locos, sandwiching another Mainline product. Firstly, we have 46107 'Argyll & Sutherland Highlander' (great name!), scratchbuilt by the late Peter Sykes. However, its old X04 motor (yes - really!) has given up the ghost and it could do with being re-shod as the existing wheels are a bit cr@ppy. Then we have Mainline 45596 which 'boasts' the newer type of chassis with the can motor. Except, when I tried it recently, it didn't want to work either! Also, I'd quite like to keep it as 45596 for personal reasons (and there's a cracking 1963 pic of her breasting Shap summit); however, it has the wrong boiler type! (long firebox). So, currently stumped on that one. Then we have a bit of a sorry case, another Peter Sykes scratchbuild which does need a major rebuild to breath life back into it (and I don't just mean the tender chassis!). When I get round to it, 'Bihar' will stay in its current condition and we'll use it for the proposed 1930s LMS group of trains for Shap in exhibition mode. And three more '5X's bringing up the rear. No.45713 'Renown' is another 'tale of woe' as I did spend quite a bit of time super-detailing etc and chose the loco as a long time Kingmoor resident for S&C services. However, its split chassis motor has expired, so this may be a candidate for the other Patriot chassis, seen earlier. No.45700 is - fairly obviously - a source of spares only; by contrast, 45611 is an out-of-the-box Bachmann which I only acquired this week (Hattons pre-owned) which will be an early candidate for treatment, to be 45573 'Newfoundland', a long time Holbeck resident and subject of a Peter Handford sound recording 'Newfoundland heads the Waverley', a trip over the S&C so an obvious candidate. Happily, the newer Bachmann offering feature the short firebox variant, so suitable for the first half of the class (roughly) and thus capturing all those wonderful empire names. BUT, all BR era pictures show her towing an all-welded 4,000 gall. tender. It's never straightforward, is it?! Talking of the 'Waverley', here it is! (sort of). Some recent maroon MkI coach purchases have allowed me to put together this reasonably accurate representation so, once 45573 is ready, then I look forward to seeing here at the head of this train (not that there's anything wrong with 70054 at the head, either!) Finally, for today: I've had this in the kit pile for AGES (at least 20 years) so I think it's about time I had a crack at it. Looks like it could be fun! (anyone built one of these before?) More soon. Edited November 1, 2020 by LNER4479 24 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted November 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2020 1 hour ago, LNER4479 said: Heading up the cavalcade are two old split chassis Mainline rebuilt Patriots, neither of which I envisage being used in their current form. I know that the old split chassis are somewhat frowned upon but these will be 'layout locos' and, in my experience, if you get a 'good' split chassis mechanism, they're perfectly adequate with a splash of oil every now and then. I think my two oldest locos that still run decently enough are both Mainline engines - a Collett Goods from 1979, and a Standard 4 from 1980. I bought the latter the same week as Model Railways' Borchester Market special issue came out, and I'm not sure if it's had more than drop of oil (if that) in the ensuing decades. Both start and stop smoothly, about the only downside being that they're a bit whirry-whirry at speed, but otherwise not too bad, 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrock Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Your Waverley looks fantastic there - what configuration of Mk1s is the formation made up of? Was it only an 8 coach working in your time period? Continuing to follow with great interest - I really look forward to your updates! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 Hi I'm looking to represent a late 1950s formation there. 'Correct' formation (as per Clive Carter 'Passenger Train Formations - LMS/LMR' for 1960) is: BSK-SO-SO-SO-RF(LMS)-FK-CK-CK-BSK My formation is: BSK-SK-SO-SO-RC(LMS)-CK-CK-BSK So not QUITE right and a coach short. However, picture evidence varies - it quite often appears as an 8-coach formation and I'm going to stick to 8 coaches, using the principle of slight compression. However, I'm aiming for FK-CK at the first class end. Not so bothered about SO versus SK, although it should at least be a SO next to the dining car I think. As usual, it's the restaurant car that is the awkward one. As you might observe, that's the ex-Dapol LMS PdII RC (12-wheel) so not strictly correct. HOWEVER, the majority of pictures do seem to show a PdII type, rather than a PdIII (Stanier) type so ... well ... close enough? Meanwhile .... 1954 formation (which would of course be all blood n custard) BTK-TK-TK-TK-TK-RT-FK-CK-BTK Interesting that that's ALL corridor and higher proportion of third class. But of more interest visually is that pictures show Stanier stock (either all or partial) which leads to the rather delightful combination of one of Carlisle Canal's A3s heading off towards the Cheviot Hills with a rake of Stanier coaches in tow. The Waverley is the only principal express passing through Carlisle that I can depict on both its route north and south of the city, so quite an important train for me. In the fullness of time I'd like to have rakes for both eras, but for now it'll be the maroon rake shown (subject to finding a suitable FK!) 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted November 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2020 Is that a Mk1 FK or a Stanier one? For the latter I have two sets of parts to build into coaches... just saying like... Baz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 I have just woken up from a dream in which I was building an O gauge Duchess... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted November 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said: I have just woken up from a dream in which I was building an O gauge Duchess... The Dave Andrews kit built one I have seen is a thing of great beauty.. but Red Leader would not get as big a layout in O Gauge than in OO.. Baz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said: I have just woken up from a dream in which I was building an O gauge Duchess... Quick! Go back to sleep again and let us know how you're getting on... Great dream. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Barry O said: Is that a Mk1 FK or a Stanier one? For the latter I have two sets of parts to build into coaches... just saying like... Baz According to Carter, the Waverley started to go MkI from 1954 onwards. Certainly, all late 1950s pix show it all MkI (apart from the caterer) in the maroon era. If you fancied building it in blood n custard, however... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Barry O said: The Dave Andrews kit built one I have seen is a thing of great beauty.. but Red Leader would not get as big a layout in O Gauge than in OO.. Baz I do have this one in stock but I think it would be more of a nightmare than a dream... 3 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted November 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2020 36 minutes ago, LNER4479 said: I do have this one in stock but I think it would be more of a nightmare than a dream... If I were you, I wouldn't start from there. 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 (edited) The winter timetable formation for 'The Waverley' north of Leeds in 1962-3 was: BSK-CK-FK-RF(LMS P2)-TSO-TSO-BSK All were Mark 1s apart from the RF. In 1960-1 earlier it had conveyed two CKs. If you go back to the summer of 1958, the catering set was made up of a RS and a CO, as part of a nine coach formation. Edited November 5, 2020 by Leander Typo 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 (edited) Yes - the Carter book just quotes certain years so, if it was a formation that changed regularly (and many did) then it might not be the best 'snapshot'. Some of the (many) pictures I have to hand match those formations you quote. 1962/3 is a bit late for me however. For the maroon era, I'm more interested in 1958/9. For pragmatic reasons, I'm happy with a 8 coach, representative rake. The CO is an interesting shout however (coaches in the middle of formations are always the hardest to identify from pictures!) Just had an (enjoyable) look through my various books. It's a predominantly MkI train as far back as 1954. Even the 'classic' Treacy pic of 45573 beneath Wild Boar Fell is MkIs as far as the eye can make out. I've come across one picture so far with an LMS coach in the formation (other than the caterer). Edited November 5, 2020 by LNER4479 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted November 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2020 you mean some of these or more probably... Baz 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 8 hours ago, Barry O said: or more probably... Baz The roof looks like it's wrong way round Baz. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted November 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2020 41 minutes ago, Leander said: The roof looks like it's wrong way round Baz. It was..it is correct now but I haven't got an up to date photo... Bas 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 (edited) What shall we talk about this evening? I know - signal boxes! (crop of image from disused stations website) Well, one in particular - that at Central station. Like many congested, inner city sites, the signal box at Manchester Central was on legs (with trains passing underneath), following a re-signalling exercise in 1935, replacing several mechanical signalboxes with power signalling. This corner of a damaged image from the ever-excellent britainfromabove website fortunately captures the station throat in the relatively undamaged part of the image, showing the shape of the signalbox and its position relative to the station. SO - despite my Central effectively being a glorified fiddle yard, thought it might be a bit of fun to incorporate this distinctive feature somewhere on the station throat. So here is a first attempt mock up. It can't really go in the equivalent position of the prototype as my trackplan doesn't suit it. This seems the best place for it - I've tried to replicate the roof shape, based on the aerial view but, as always, it's a compromise (ie smaller that the prototype) and does distort the overall shape a bit. That line beneath is actually the station headshunt - beyond are the main arrival / departure lines. From this side, the elevation is a bit bland; the interesting elevation is the other side, with large windows to look out over the station throat. This is the view not normally seen but shows the other side. It also shows the size relative to the stock. There's sufficient clearance beneath, as demonstrated by 45549 ... but not THAT much room! Meanwhile, I've taken delivery of Central's station designated pilot loco. This loco was shown on 'Sir's thread as 'looking for a good home'. An old K's kit, re-engined with the latest DJH motor / gearbox combo, it has all the 'grunt' and smooth application of power to shift up to 12 coach formations around the station so 'a deal was done' and here she (he) is, patiently waiting for the station works to be complete so she can explore her new surroundings. Although it's a historical anachronism for me, I rather like it in post-wat LMS black so, as its a fiddle yard, I think it'll stay that way. Meanwhile, standing behind, is another kit built loco which will add a bit of variety. This time 'for services rendered', it was built by a certain Mr Duck of this parish from a Comet kit and is the result of me enjoying myself laying track (and other stuff) at Seaton Junction. It awaits a return to the paintshop for lining and numbering as 44757, a Holbeck engine from new (1948) until 1963 and plenty of pictures of it (can't quite bring myself to call this one a 'her'!) on the S&C towards Carlisle. More soon Edited November 8, 2020 by LNER4479 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
apbolton Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 https://images.app.goo.gl/QbuEmB6H763YcwZV6 Here is another photo of the signal box. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Thanks Paul. Here's another ... https://railscot.co.uk/img/31/4/ Plus some decent ones (including interior) in the Foxline book 'Midland Route from Manchester' Part 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS29 Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 1 hour ago, LNER4479 said: Thanks Paul. Here's another ... https://railscot.co.uk/img/31/4/ Plus some decent ones (including interior) in the Foxline book 'Midland Route from Manchester' Part 1 Paul, Do I feel a build coming on?? Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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