BR West Highland sleeper question

[BR37414]

Hey folks,

 

While I wait for several books to arrive, could someone maybe point out the typical arrangement and type of cars on the Glasgow to Fort William/Mallaig passenger/sleeper services circa 1986?

 

I'm having a hard time picking out the different types in the videos.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Alex

[GBMRG]

Hello!

You might find the planned formation on the BR Coaching Yahoo Group website. Actual workings will be seen on your video and books.

Best regards,

GBMRG

[37409]

Usually the sleeper was;

 

Mk3 SLE, mk3 SLEP, Mk2d BSO, Mk2e declassified FO, Mk1 SO, Mk1 BSOT, plus occasionally another SO during high season. Air braked.

 

Normal rakes were combinations of between 2 and 7 Mk1 BSOT's, SO's, SK's, Mk2a/z BSO's, BSOT's, TSO's. All vac braked examples (including the Mk2a's)

 

The sleeper generally used dual braked Mk1's as there were no air-braked Mk2a's allocated to the WHL during that period. Very occasionally a Polmadie Mk2a BSO or SO from the West Coast Mainline pool would be used. The Sleepers and Mk2d/e worked Euston to Fort William and return as a portion splitting/reattaching from a Inverness sleeper at Mossend hence the need for the BSO. This portion worked to/from Glasgow Queen St where the 'day coaches' forming the 0450 Gw-FW/1550 Mallaig-Gw were attached/detached. The day coaches plus the declassified Mk2e FO also worked the 14.05 Fort William-Mallaig and the 15.50 Mallaig-Fort William before being reattached to the Mk2d BSO and the Sleepers to form the 17.40 Fort William-Queen St/Euston.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Kylestrome]

In your other thread you refer to the West Highland Extension, which is the part of the West Highland Line that runs from Ft. William to Mallaig. It might be worth pointing out that the sleeper services only ever ran as far as Fort William. The sleeper cars themselves never went to Mallaig.

 

David

[BR37414]

37409, thank you kindly for that info. That is exactly what I needed. Now I can budget my equipment needs and still be fairly accurate.

 

One quick question. You mentioned the SO/SKs, BSO and BSOTs where used on the day trains.

 

I guessing the 1S07 service would leave there sleepers at Fort William station and the loco and cars would become a train to Mallaig?

 

Same in Glasgow with the sleepers on there way to Euston, that left them free for a morning train? I think thats what you said in that part so my appologies if I am reiterating what you said.

 

Do you happen to know the schedule for the local freight services and days?

 

David, sorry for the two thread confusuion. I do certainly know the sleepers never went to Mallaig.

 

I hoped the two threads would have prevented that. Thank you though for the clarification.

 

Thanks to you both!

 

Alex

[John M Upton]

Just to add to the fun, the day coaches including a declassified aircon Mk2 FO would sometimes run to/from Mallaig with a couple of black TTA type oil tankers hanging off the back!!

[young37215]

The air conditioned sleepers and Mk2's from the down sleeper were detached at FW and usually sat in the siding before forming the return working that evening. Depending on the date, I believe sleeper cleaning took place in the station or at Tom na faire, the depot area at FW.  Again depending on the year and as others have noted in this thread, sometimes the Mk1's from the sleeper were used as part of other service trains, other times the whole sleeper rake was simply shunted into the siding to wait the return working that evening. The MK1's that were removed from the up working at Glasgow returned to FW the following day on the down sleeper.

 

As John Upton has said, occasionally the Mk2 air conditioned stock got an outing to Mallaig in times of stock shortage. I don't think this was that common but, like with class 20's on Mallaig passenger service, there are a disproportionate number of pictures and videos of the air cons that can be found on the web. There is a clip of a  Mk2 on a Mallaig service at 4 minutes in the attached link

  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkjw7kssXoU

 

In terms of freight workings I recommend that you keep your eyes open for a working timetable, they crop up on Ebay from time to time. WTT's are an invaluable reference source. My latest one is for 1986, if you want I will scan the 2 pages that make up the WHL and post on here.

 

regards Rob

 

[37409]

37409, thank you kindly for that info. That is exactly what I needed. Now I can budget my equipment needs and still be fairly accurate.

 

One quick question. You mentioned the SO/SKs, BSO and BSOTs where used on the day trains.

 

I guessing the 1S07 service would leave there sleepers at Fort William station and the loco and cars would become a train to Mallaig?

 

Same in Glasgow with the sleepers on there way to Euston, that left them free for a morning train? I think thats what you said in that part so my appologies if I am reiterating what you said.

 

Do you happen to know the schedule for the local freight services and days?

 

David, sorry for the two thread confusuion. I do certainly know the sleepers never went to Mallaig.

 

I hoped the two threads would have prevented that. Thank you though for the clarification.

 

Thanks to you both!

 

Alex

 

That's correct, the 'day coaches' were from  Qst - FW (with sleepers and aircons), FW-Ml (with 1 aircon), Ml-FW (likewise) and FW-Qst with the sleepers and aircons. 

 

.

 

As John Upton has said, occasionally the Mk2 air conditioned stock got an outing to Mallaig in times of stock shortage. I don't think this was that common but, like with class 20's on Mallaig passenger service, there are a disproportionate number of pictures and videos of the air cons that can be found on the web. There is a clip of a  Mk2 on a Mallaig service at 4 minutes in the attached link

 

 

Booked move, the sleepers and the Mk2d BSO were left at Fort William and the declassified Mk2e FO plus the two (or sometimes more depending on season) Mk1's worked the 14.05 FW - Mallaig and the 15.50 return. This happened from the summer timetable '85 through to the end of hauled services when the sleeper became its own train separate from the normal WHL services. This meant that the 15.50 ex Mallaig was effectively a through train to Glasgow with a seated coach for Euston.

 

Note that the tanks attached to the afternoon (16.05 ex FW) Mallaig were TTV's or TTG's, not TTA's. This is because, aside from the sleeper, all WHL services were vacuum braked.

[Bomag]

In the mid 1980's the declassified a/c FO was a MK2f SO in the 64xx range - the seating was definitely IC70. The BSOTs were either 9015 or 9016. They were dual heated and dual braked but only had 90mph BR1s whereas all the 100mph rated BSOTs were VS.

[young37215]

That's correct, the 'day coaches' were from  Qst - FW (with sleepers and aircons), FW-Ml (with 1 aircon), Ml-FW (likewise) and FW-Qst with the sleepers and aircons. 

 

 

Booked move, the sleepers and the Mk2d BSO were left at Fort William and the declassified Mk2e FO plus the two (or sometimes more depending on season) Mk1's worked the 14.05 FW - Mallaig and the 15.50 return. This happened from the summer timetable '85 through to the end of hauled services when the sleeper became its own train separate from the normal WHL services. This meant that the 15.50 ex Mallaig was effectively a through train to Glasgow with a seated coach for Euston.

 

Note that the tanks attached to the afternoon (16.05 ex FW) Mallaig were TTV's or TTG's, not TTA's. This is because, aside from the sleeper, all WHL services were vacuum braked.

 

I attach a scan of the May 1984 WTT which is the most up to date that I have. This was the first year that the FW to Mallaig services were run as independent trains with separate stock. In previous years for as far back as I have ever looked and with the exception of the teatime mixed service, Mallaig trains had been a through service from Glasgow.

 

Interestingly all passenger services except the sleeper and 14.05 FW to Mallaig are shown as VB/SH whereas the sleeper and the 1405 (plus its return on the 1550 ex Mallaig) have no designation which back up 37409's observations.  

[BR37414]

This is all wonderful information. I appricate everything that has been discussed.

 

I ordered my first class 37s today and was going to order some coaches and such, but the BSO/Ts are proving to be besting me. Sleepers are proving difficult to locate as well.

 

Could someone explain the difference between Mk2a, Mk2d and Mk2e BSO(T)s. I've also seen Mk2f coaches but unsure of these are accurate.

 

As for the timetable, should i look at ebay for those?

[Bomag]

This is all wonderful information. I appricate everything that has been discussed.

 

I ordered my first class 37s today and was going to order some coaches and such, but the BSO/Ts are proving to be besting me. Sleepers are proving difficult to locate as well.

 

Could someone explain the difference between Mk2a, Mk2d and Mk2e BSO(T)s. I've also seen Mk2f coaches but unsure of these are accurate.

 

As for the timetable, should i look at ebay for those?

 

Firstly BSOT are Mk1s converted from BSOs - this is not helpful as they are not available RTR in OO or N (AFAIK) - the nearest option is to use a BCK with the interior replaced. It has one to many toilet windows and the van sections is therefore short. A BSK looks completely different.

 

Mk2s a pottered guide.

 

The original Mk 2s (sometimes called MK2Z) had/were.

 

1. Three doors on the TSO with two loos at one end.

2. Vac braked (some later converted to air).

3. Sliding corridor connecting door.

4. Generally they did not have 'Intercity' logo.

5. Regularly intermingled with Mk1s

 

Slightly later in the 60's the Mk2a was produced.

1. From the side they generally looks like the MK2 but usually had 'Intercity' branding.

2. They were air braked when built but some were vac braked.

3. The corridor connecting door is folding, and a different cololur - there is another thread on the colour of these for various coaches so will skip this.

4. Except for the vac baked versions they normally only ran with catering and brake Mk1s (Mostly BGs some BSO (6), BFK (4), BCK (1) but not often BSKs unless on the Southern Region).

 

After the Mk2as were the Mk2bs which only had TSO/BFK/FK

1. The switched to the wrap around doors at the ends, the TSO omitted the middle door and moved the loos to being inside the doors at both ends.

 

Moving swiftly on were the Mk2c.

1. The first batch were externaly similar to Mk2b but the later half has a single pane of glass on the loo as opposed to having a frosted pane with a vetilator in the top.

2. The later half had roofs similar to the later Mk2s with a large access panel at one end.

3. Internally it had a lower roof for possible refitting with a/c equipment (the development of which was apparently running late).

 

At the beginning of the 70s we had the air con Mk2Ds

1. Obvious by having shorter windows and a/c fans etc on under frame.

2. Interior was very similar with a lot of wood.

3. The BFK/FK were the last corridor day coaches built.

 

By 1973 we had Mk2e

1. Interiors were plastic and loos were made smaller with luggage racks opposite.

 

The last lot, completed in 1975 were the Mk2fs

1. The intention was to have new seating - IC70 as used on HST etc and a different a/c system (with single fan on TSO/FO), however some were build with older type seating and the older stones a/c system (twin fan).

 

Ignoring knowing the number ranges the identifaction of the various MK2 is (with some big caveats)

1. If it has not got wrap round doors and has no intercity logo and/or is in a mixed MK1 rake it's a MK2

2. If it has not got wrap round doors and has intercity logo and/or only has a catering or brake Mk1 in the rake it's a Mk2a

3. If it has a wrap around doors and mulit-pane loo window it is either a MK2b or c

4. If it has a wrap around doors and single pane loo window it is a MK2c

5. It is has a/c then the position of the loos is about as good as it gets - however, the loaction and destination of the train is proabaly the best guide.

 

You don't say which gauge you are moddeling so a solution for 1986 is:-

 

Farish blue ribbon MK1 BCK b/g with modified interior and the first class symbols pained over.

Farish blue ribbon Mk1 TSO in b/g.

Farish b/g Mk2f brake.

Farish b/g Mk2f FO with the first class symbols pained over.

2 Farish Mk3 b/g sleeper - should be SLE/SLEP combination but give the number of SLE over SLEP a pair of SLEPs would not unknown. They were often run at the time with the SLE on the pantry end of the SLEP with the loos at the opposite ends - this means that the corridor side of the SLE would be on the same side as the compartment side of the SLEP.

 

It may be possible that the odd a/c coaches could be in ICE livery by 1986

Edited December 6, 2017 by Bomag

[John M Upton]

In OO there is now a Mk1 BSO from Hornby. N gauge is a cut and shut job if you are feeling brave.

[BR37414]

Sorry, I'm modelling in OO.

 

That is a wealth of knowledge. Is there a number series listed somewhere?

 

I broke down and ordered a Mk2 BSO and a Mk1 BSO but unsure of the variations. Also got a couple Mk1 SO/SKs. I will have try and see these points when I get the coaches in hand.

 

Lima made Mk3 sleepers are they SLE or SLEPs?

 

Did resturant cars ever run on the West Highland?

 

Thanks again!

[frobisher]

Lima made Mk3 sleepers are they SLE or SLEPs?

Yes There are no external differences between the two apart from markings. Hornby have also produced a slightly updated version of these in the past (new bogies I think).

[keefer]

I don't know about the models, but didn't the SLEP have an extra white window on the berth side? i.e. one for the toilet and one for the pantry.
Whereas the SLE only had one (for the toilet) and the other was a normal window (and therefore had one more berth than the SLEP)

The corridor side was the same for both types (5 small windows)

 

EDIT:

photo of SLEP with pantry nearest (notice also the small rectangular vent next to the opaque window): http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474

 

SLE with normal berth instead of pantry: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474

Edited December 7, 2017 by keefer

[frobisher]

I don't know about the models, but didn't the SLEP have an extra white window on the berth side? i.e. one for the toilet and one for the pantry.

Whereas the SLE only had one (for the toilet) and the other was a normal window (and therefore had one more berth than the SLEP)

The corridor side was the same for both types (5 small windows)

 

EDIT:

photo of SLEP with pantry nearest (notice also the small rectangular vent next to the opaque window): http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474

 

SLE with normal berth instead of pantry: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474

Ah, okay (I was lead to believe the bodyshells were absolutely identical - but that vent makes a difference). In which case, the ex-Lima tooling is a SLE but it might have been sold as a SLEP in the past with that window opaqued...

Edited December 7, 2017 by frobisher

[keefer]

I must admit I'd never noticed the vent until I looked at the pic before posting, I was simply going by the opaque windows!

I wonder was it a later addition and when did it appear?

 

EDIT: pic from 1983 in robertcwp's Flickr, would suggest the vent was original: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5068748133/in/album-72157603653607671/

Edited December 7, 2017 by keefer

[mjkerr]

the SLEP have an extra white window on the berth side? i.e. one for the toilet and one for the pantry.

Whereas the SLE only had one (for the toilet) and the other was a normal window (and therefore had one more berth than the SLEP)

Yes, it was helpful when the white window and vent was on the platform side to know where to board into the cosy cupboard

There was also an additional water tank in the SLEP, hidden

 

The vent was fitted to SLEP in the case of air conditioning failure or being switched off (insufficient ETH) the staff member still had ventilation for the steam

Edited December 7, 2017 by mjkerr

[Bob Reid]

Definitely original Keefer - bottom left image this page

​they both used the same basic shell otherwise - altered for each type though...  

[BR37414]

Ok, my next question is. Does anyone make detail kits for the coaches and sleepers?

 

I'd like to get them as close as I can.

 

Thanks!

[Combe Martin]

On ‎30‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 15:56, 37409 said:

 

The sleeper generally used dual braked Mk1's as there were no air-braked Mk2a's allocated to the WHL during that period. Very occasionally a Polmadie Mk2a BSO or SO from the West Coast Mainline pool would be used. The Sleepers and Mk2d/e worked Euston to Fort William and return as a portion splitting/reattaching from a Inverness sleeper at Mossend hence the need for the BSO. This portion worked to/from Glasgow Queen St where the 'day coaches' forming the 0450 Gw-FW/1550 Mallaig-Gw were attached/detached. The day coaches plus the declassified Mk2e FO also worked the 14.05 Fort William-Mallaig and the 15.50 Mallaig-Fort William before being reattached to the Mk2d BSO and the Sleepers to form the 17.40 Fort William-Queen St/Euston.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

In the period 1980-1987 (roughly) I used the overnight Motorail service from London to the highlands every year when going on holiday (I was working hard and being knackered didn't fancy the long drive then) using various different routes depending upon availability because I always booked up at the last minute.

 

Mostly it was up the WCML.  When going to Inverness there was always the loco change at Mossend Yard, but the train never split into 2 portions there.

 

When going to Fort William the train worked into Glasgow Central and changed loco/reversed there before working out of Glasgow (via the low level lines I think) then via Helensburgh to Fort William.  It didn't split or run into Glasgow Queen Street.

 

I'm not saying the above quote is wrong, just that the services I used didn't  go those ways.

 

The very first time I went, the motorail service ran from Kensington Olympia.    

[Bomag]

2 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

In the period 1980-1987 (roughly) I used the overnight Motorail service from London to the highlands every year when going on holiday (I was working hard and being knackered didn't fancy the long drive then) using various different routes depending upon availability because I always booked up at the last minute.

 

Mostly it was up the WCML.  When going to Inverness there was always the loco change at Mossend Yard, but the train never split into 2 portions there.

 

When going to Fort William the train worked into Glasgow Central and changed loco/reversed there before working out of Glasgow (via the low level lines I think) then via Helensburgh to Fort William.  It didn't split or run into Glasgow Queen Street.

 

I'm not saying the above quote is wrong, just that the services I used didn't  go those ways.

 

The very first time I went, the motorail service ran from Kensington Olympia.    

 

There used to be two sleepers a night to Inverness; it varied overtime but I never went on the FW sleepers with Motorrail GUVs, so may be you travelled on the other one. As indicated in another thread in the later 80's the section was uncoupled at Sterling but in 1986 it definitely went via QS and not Central and was added at Mossed. When it stopped going via QS HL it went vial the W to N curve at Eastfield and last year looked to go via Bathgate and QS LL.

[design8027]

Saw a photo of 37404 on the down sleeper taken in 1989. Train was 3 aircon MK2’s and 2 MK3 sleepers. Would other coaches be added at Fort William or could just the aircon coaches have gone to Mallaig? Be something different to model. 

[Bomag]

24 minutes ago, design8027 said:

Saw a photo of 37404 on the down sleeper taken in 1989. Train was 3 aircon MK2’s and 2 MK3 sleepers. Would other coaches be added at Fort William or could just the aircon coaches have gone to Mallaig? Be something different to model. 

 

I think by 1989 all service trains from FW to Mallaig were Class 156. Before then e.g. 1984 the a/c coaches were normally serviced at FW, but photos show a few got through, presumably they were short of vb stock. The Mk1s used on the sleeper started as the 16:05 from Mallaig, had the Euston coaches added at FW and then the Mk1s removed at Glasgow QS.