Derailment in Washington state

[jsp3970]

It was reported by several sources that the speed on that curve for Talgos was 30 mph yet they think the train was still doing 81 mph,

[Talltim]

I’m yet to be convinced about reports on the speed. It appears to come from the Amtrak website and this is not necessarily real-time, ie it is updated every few minutes

That’s not to rule out over speed.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Talltim

[Ozexpatriate]

As to the cause: it has been released that the speed was close or above the max permissible* in the US of 79 mph. The location is in the middle of a sharp S-curve, so this was most likely a factor. Why and how, that's the NTSB's job to find out.

Very much so.

 

Today was the first day of operation for train 501.

 

No doubt the NTSB will look into human factors like training and route learning as well as the condition of the track.

 

This is an upgraded alignment improved for passenger working by Sound Transit which operates the Sounder on this line as far south as Lakewood. Some of the improvements were funded by the State of Washington and there were some Federal grade crossing funds available as well. 

 

EDIT:

CNN is reporting at least three casualties and over 100 people transported to hospital (including ambulatory patients) some of whom were travelling on the highway.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[BR60103]

I've been watching the Seattle TV most of the day.

From the aerial views, it looks as if the lead loco came off on the outside of the curve and went down the bank onto the highway. Followed by a number of the cars which may have been pushed by the trailing loco. There are a few cars zig-zagged on the bridge and the last 3 are hanging over the other side of the bridge. The last coach shows signs of crumple. The trailing loco is still, reportedly, on the track. There are coaches under the bridge, including at least one on its roof, and threatened by one of the danglers.

One report was that 5 cars and 2 trucks were struck. Injuries but no deaths on the highway.

Because this was the first revenue trip, there were a number of railfans on board. They may give understandable commentary.

One of the local mayors was opposed to this new high-speed route.

The highway detour route runs up the far side of Puget Sound and is reported to take nearly 3 hours (I don't know if that is today or normally).

[dave1905]

I would wait a bit before jumping to the conclusion that the train was going 81 mph.  A lot of people seem to be getting that speed off an app that shows the speeds of Amtrak trains as they go across the route.  Those are notoriously inaccurate.  Not saying it wasn't, but the source I saw for the 81 mph speed  was suspect.  I believe that the speed limit of 30 mph is correct for the curve it was going on was correct, based on some railroad timetable pages that were posted.

 

I have seen reports that the train hit an obstruction on the tracks.

 

Not many real details so far.

[Supaned]

I'd have thought the possibility of hitting an obstruction on the track can be ruled out fairly quickly - most if not all Amtrak power now has a forward facing camera fitted in the cab , and I'd have also thought if that was the case then they'd have said so already , so using Occam's Razor as a guide , sadly the reason for this accident is likely to be the most obvious.

[jsp3970]

NTSB has apparently already view the date recorder and it was going 50 mph over the limit.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amtrak-train-ntsb-update-1.4455726

[Zomboid]

Terrible situation for everyone involved. I hope the all injured make a fast and full recovery.

 

I'm sure the whys and hows will come out in due course.

[admiles]

NTSB has apparently already view the date recorder and it was going 50 mph over the limit.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amtrak-train-ntsb-update-1.4455726

 

If true that would certainly do it! Lots of questions for the engineer/driver I suspect. Assuming he/she survived?

 

Certainly echos of the Spanish high-speed crash a few years ago.

[beast66606]

Reports coming in (various places) that the data recorder shows a speed of 80mph into the 30mph restriction.

[caradoc]

Is there still no universal system in the US for automatically controlling train speed approaching severe restrictions ? There were accidents causing fatalities in what appears to be similar scenarios in 2013 (Spuyten Devil, NY) and 2015 (Philadelphia, PA).

[jsp3970]

I am sorry to say that the two passengers my friends knew were among the fatalities.

[Oldddudders]

I am sorry to say that the two passengers my friends knew were among the fatalities.

How awful. How many Christmases has this accident ruined? We so often seem to have such an event shortly before the festive season. PanAm 103, Clapham, Sweet Hill etc. Of course there is no causal link, but the timing is impeccably tragic.

[Bruce Depot]

DId the driver know the line speed I wonder? First train on first day of service, all new.... Presume they have to sign the road as such?

Edited December 19, 2017 by Bruce Depot

[Fat Controller]

DId the driver konw the line speed I wonder? First train on first day of service, all new.... Presume they have to sign the road as such?

The TGV accident in Alsace comes to mind. A friend of ours was killed in that.

[bike2steam]

DId the driver know the line speed I wonder? First train on first day of service, all new.... Presume they have to sign the road as such?

 

Doing 80 thro' a 30 speed limit - obviously not.

[Zomboid]

If the train was indeed travelling at 80 when it should have been 30, we shouldn't jump to conclusions about why.

[Titan]

Sorry to hear that news.

 

 

@caradoc: Yes there is, but no there isn't, actually. PTC was selected as the US-wide standard, but particularly the Class I's have resisted installing it, citing costs and availability issues. The deadline for installing PTC on certain types of track has been missed by them several times. Availability has indeed been an issue, hence some extension of the mandatory instalment date by previous administrations, I'm not aware if there's a current reprieve in effect and if so, for what reason.

 

 

I understand it is only mandatory for lines with a maximum speed of 80mph and above. So to avoid fitting it many lines now have an official maximum speed of 79mph, of which I think this is one...

[Edwin_m]

I understand it is only mandatory for lines with a maximum speed of 80mph and above. So to avoid fitting it many lines now have an official maximum speed of 79mph, of which I think this is one...

The 79mph is based on a long-standing requirement to have cab signalling above that speed.  The PTC requirement is more recent and applies, I believe, to all passenger lines regardless of speed. 

[Glorious NSE]

Sorry to hear that news.

 

 

@caradoc: Yes there is, but no there isn't, actually. PTC was selected as the US-wide standard, but particularly the Class I's have resisted installing it, citing costs and availability issues. The deadline for installing PTC on certain types of track has been missed by them several times. Availability has indeed been an issue, hence some extension of the mandatory instalment date by previous administrations, I'm not aware if there's a current reprieve in effect and if so, for what reason.

The deadline was extended (just before being missed by everyone involved) to the end of 2018. It is now in use in some area's, but i'm sceptical that the end 2018 will be met.

 

I believe that some commuter agencies haven't even started yet...

 

[Titan]

And if they don't meet the deadline, they will face the severest of penalties. The penalty of having the deadline extended again. Meanwhile...

[Jeff Smith]

There's always a chance that this accident may alter that imperative but as not much of importance can be achieved in DC right now this seems unlikely.

 

I did read somewhere that the rear loco was not under power but that the speed record was from there. As with most accidents it will take time to assemble the correct explanation.

 

The accidents per passenger mile must surely be higher in the US than many other countries, especially on Amtrak?

[Glorious NSE]

There's always a chance that this accident may alter that imperative but as not much of importance can be achieved in DC right now this seems unlikely.

 

Without getting too political, my observation is that the issue with commuter agencies is they rely on the individual states to fund their budgets, if the state refuses to fund the installation then the railroad can't do it...presumably at the end of 2018 any that haven't done so will face-off against the federal government to extend the deadline again or shut down operations.

 

PTC is a federally mandated, but not federally funded project - ironically whilst the freight railroads made their initial reluctance clear (and there were many practical reasons for not meeting the 2015 deadline) - they are now well on the way to complying - it's ironically the passenger ones (where arguably the most obvious benefits exist!) where funding the installation is less simple and they appear to be further behind on it.

[dave1905]

Just read that the NTSB has confirmed that the train was going 80, so it looks like the cause was speeding.

 

PTC is NOT universally mandated, only required on those territories that meet requirements with regard to passenger service and hazardous material volumes.  A line could have 100 trains a day, but if none of them are passenger trains and none carry above the minimum of certain hazmats (for example a line running to coal fields) then PTC is not required.

 

There were many things, that delayed PTC, the railroads were several years into the project before the government issued its final rules, for the first several years the railroads were building infrastructure guessing on what the final requirements would be.  The system requires a completely separate radio network to be overlaid over the top of the existing systems.  All those radios requires tens of thousands of antenna poles to be erected.  Because of the being radio towers, the Federal Communications Commission had jurisdiction on licensing the antennas.  Because many of the poles were in lands that could have had native American artifacts on them, every hole dug for a pole had to be approved by the appropriate tribal council.  That backlogged the process for a year until the FRA finally got the FCC to streamline the process.

 

Then the railroads had to figure out where to put the extra electronics boxes, wiring and antennas on the engines, which already were crammed with radios and telemetry devices, plus they found that some of the computers had to be in climate controlled areas of the engines.  And different runs of different models might have different configurations of components depending on the type of cab, its internal arrangements and how other equipment had been installed.

 

After all that they had to test it to see how it worked and how it played with all the other signal, communications and information systems on the railroad, and then because several different railroads all bought equipment from different vendors, they had to test to see if all the equipment was compatible between the different other systems and the physical arrangements.

 

It was not like it was just plugging something into the wall and flipping switch.

Edited December 19, 2017 by dave1905

[dave1905]

PTC is a federally mandated, but not federally funded project - ironically whilst the freight railroads made their initial reluctance clear (and there were many practical reasons for not meeting the 2015 deadline) - they are now well on the way to complying - it's ironically the passenger ones (where arguably the most obvious benefits exist!) where funding the installation is less simple and they appear to be further behind on it.

 

The incident that finally caused the PTC rule to be implemented was ironically between a  freight locomotive that was equipped to operate in coded cab signal, automatic train control and automatic train stop territory, all technologies that were decades old, but none of them were installed on the commuter line and the commuter train wasn't equipped for any of them.