Cement/Aggregate business in the 80's-90's (and a some BR questions)

[Lacathedrale]

Hi there,

 

Needing to strike out in an entirely new gauge for my layout to fit my proposed space will require me to build a little test plank ahead of time. I'd rather it not be a total waste of time and as such wanted to take some inspiration from local industries! Purley's "London Cement Ltd" is situated on the site of the Purley (nee Caterham Junction, nee Godstone Rd) goods yard. Originally the yard was mainly for builders merchants and coal in equal measures due to the large amount of firestone, red brick earth and aggregate. I gather that's why when the goods yard went the way of the dodo, a not-insignificant cement plant remains - oddly enough, as a loading point. It consists of what I can only assume is a loco spur (red), a loading shed and a runaround loop, and a storage siding (blue): https://i.imgur.com/8H0Y1v4.jpg

1. Is the red spot really a loco spur? This would have been the area for the goods yard and that track would have lead to the other sidings in an earlier era. If not, would it be totally anachronistic to have a loco laying over there?
2. What purpose would the runaround be? Just to get on the right side of the train for the onward journey? I gather the wagons would have been propelled empty into the siding, and then drawn back into the sizeable headshunt (before subsequently navigating the pointwork onto the mainline).
3. What wagons would have been in use in the 70's and 80's? I see Presflo photographs but they seem oddly anachronistic against BR Blue and Sectorisation
4. In the BR(S)/NSE region I'm going to work on the assumption that a Class 33, 73 and 37 would all be in evidence - I gather at this point they would be a mish-mash of blue and sectors. When did Blue really start to fade away? One of my memories of being a whippersnapper is watching 33's hauling trains across the earthworks around Hither Green (which would have been the very early 90's) but I can't be sure if they were blue or not! 
5. In a similar vein I would imagine that the station would be done up in glossy red for Network South East, were there any particular cut off points around the permanent way I should be aware of?
6. Lastly, my research suggests that BR only approved SOME freight trains to run without brake vans in '85 - realistically what is the likely cut-off point for their use in this traffic?

Many thanks!

 

 

 

[black and decker boy]

Are you sure this is a loading point which sends out stone?

 

It won’t be a cement works, you need huge limestone quarries for those.

 

It looks from your photo like a receiving yard for stone / aggregates. Loads of which arrive by rail from the big quarries in Somerset or Midlands or maybe dredged aggregates from the Thames or South Coast. These are then dispatched locally by HGV.

 

The various ‘bins’ visible contain different grades of aggregate & sand needed in construction.

 

It might still have a concrete batching plant which will mix the aggregates, sand & cement and send out in readymix lorries..

.

.

Edited December 21, 2017 by black and decker boy

[Lacathedrale]

I see - well, the firm is definitely 'London Cement' - but you could be right in that it's just a branding and this particular depot is for transloading to lorries. I did wonder where all the mining would be, but then again the area is known for it's natural building resources so I figured it was "over the horizon"  

[black and decker boy]

A bit of googling has found these

 

https://goo.gl/images/UaEhQi

 

https://goo.gl/images/mpx4Lg

 

https://goo.gl/images/EPhKGA

 

https://goo.gl/images/Kj1Z1c

 

The services shown on Realtime trains are run for Foster Yeoman (Aggregate Industries) bring aggregate to Purley from Acton (so Merehead would be the origin) and Hoo/Isle of Grain (so possibly Glensanda Quarry by ship). Inbound load 1800-2000 tonnes, return load 600 tonnes.

[Oldddudders]

I am unaware of present arrangements at Purley, but in the early ‘70s a stone depot was established there, with regular - several times a week - trains from Cliffe, on the Isle of Grain. These were for the account of a firm called Marinex, using sea-dredged aggregate, albeit from the Thames estuary. I think these trains ran via Tonbridge, but may be wrong.

 

I’m unclear what you seek re Network Branding. Purley was one of the first stations on South Central to be done in Summer 1986, probably not unconnected to the then-Chairman of the BRB, Bob Reid, living there. So red lamp-posts, red station furniture and NSE signing. Network digital clocks came a little later.

[Lacathedrale]

Olddudders, so would that be stone/aggregate inbound?  Honestly that era is exactly what I'm after  I gather the wagons in the photos of 'black and decker boy's post might be a bit new for the 80's?

 

With that in mind, what kind of wagons would this plant see inbound? If there is 600 tones outbound, would that be light, or loaded with something else?

Edited December 21, 2017 by Lacathedrale

[Oldddudders]

Yes, the stone/aggregate was dredged in the Thames, loaded to rail at Cliffe, ran to Purley. The wagons in those days returned empty. The vehicles were100-ton (not tonne) GLW high-sided bogie hoppers. I think a loaded train consisted of 8 of them. They bore a passing resemblance to the modern ones pictured, but were, from memory, a bit shorter.

[SED Freightman]

As Olddudders correctly mentions, the terminal originally received sea dredged aggregate from Cliffe in trains of 18 x Marinex bogie hoppers, these ran via Clapham Jn to Salfords where 9 wagons were detached before proceeding back to Purley where the other 9 wagons were unloaded.  The return service conveyed only empty hoppers and operated in reverse to the loaded route, the run round at Purley in the return direction being performed in the Caterham / Tattenham Corner Branch platforms.  Despite the traffic being conveyed in hopper wagons there was no hopper discharge pit, the wagon contents being carefully emptied onto a conveyor belt running along the centre of the siding, a similar arrangement also applied at Salfords. The Charringtons coal depot continued to receive coal by rail until 1990, latterly in HEA's conveyed on Speedlink Coal Network services. When coal traffic ceased the aggregate operation eventuall expanded to take over the whole yard and the aggregate terminal operation switched from Brett Marine Aggregates to Day & Son (Brentford) Ltd (latterly Day Aggregates)  who then expanded the operation to include receipt of limestone ex Foster Yeoman, this arrived from Acton in open box wagons for grab discharge, having been moved from Merehead to London as a portion of one of the Foster Yeoman supertrains.  With privatisation, ownership of the yard passed to EWS and with a long term tenancy in place Day Aggregates invested £3.6m in the terminal during 2005/2006 and constructed the current rail layout, hopper dischage pit and storage bins.  After completion of the new rail facilities a large concrete batching plant was also constructed on site by London Concrete Ltd who have constructed similar facilities within a number of Day Aggregates rail terminals (eg. Stewarts Lane).  The short spur siding is for crippled wagons and is the remnants of a siding which once extended along the eastern side of the site and was latterly used for the grab discharge of the traffic ex Merehead, as an aside during the mid 1990's a particular local resident used to be so aggrevated by trains arriving on this siding in the early hours that they used to shout and throw stones at the loco !

 

Amended 23/12/17 to show correct routing of Marinex / Brett service via London, details of coal traffic, and revised information on the aggregate terminal.

Edited December 23, 2017 by SED Freightman

[Lacathedrale]

Lovely - so I can in theory model one of those tracks as a Charrington's coal siding? Would those have been HEA's?

 

 

Yes, the stone/aggregate was dredged in the Thames, loaded to rail at Cliffe, ran to Purley. The wagons in those days returned empty. The vehicles were100-ton (not tonne) GLW high-sided bogie hoppers. I think a loaded train consisted of 8 of them. They bore a passing resemblance to the modern ones pictured, but were, from memory, a bit shorter.

 

Would these be JGA or HHA or something? I can't quite seem to find an example (and the Grafar JGAs at £27 a pop seem a little on the pricey side!)

[Oldddudders]

Would these be JGA or HHA or something? I can't quite seem to find an example (and the Grafar JGAs at £27 a pop seem a little on the pricey side!)

I’m afraid TOPS terminology means very little to me. I left Croydon Control in 1973, and such labels had yet to appear then. I struggle enough with TOPS codes for locos and EMUs!

[njee20]

HHAs are much newer, and were designed for coal.

 

JGAs were mid-80s IIRC, so would potentially be appropriate. Indeed the services still using Purley today comprise mainly ex-RMC JGAs and grey PGAs. The latter are available from Farish more cheaply than JGAs. The N gauge society do a JGA kit, which is a different style of wagon to the Farish RTR offering.

[Lacathedrale]

Top man, njee20 - thank you!

 

Olddudders, I didn't realise you worked on the line Thanks for the even more in depth info.

[SED Freightman]

Having thought a little more, the original service may have been Cliffe - Salfords (detach 9) - Purley (unload 9) - Salfords (attach 9 etys) - Cliffe, I will dig out an old timetable tomorrow and have a look.  The original Marinex / Brett hoppers were coded PHA Nos. ELC17501-ELC17520, but the TOPS code changed in the early 1990's to JHA.

 

 

On a murky Saturday morning 33107 + 33110 have run round the empty hoppers in Platform 6 and are propelling them back into the Headshunt prior to departing as the 0940 (7Z81) Purley to Cliffe additional service.

 

 

 

33107 + 33110 head south through Platform 4 with the 0940 (7Z61) Purley to Cliffe additional service on 04/02/1989.  Note that the wagons are equipped with air operated bottom doors, controlled by the red and yellow levers attached to the wagon solebar.

 

 

Amended 23/12/17 - TOPS wagon code for Brett wagons revised.

Edited December 23, 2017 by SED Freightman

[Fat Controller]

The same, or very similar, wagons were used to deliver aggregate to the terminal just west of Paddington station that disappeared under the Cross-Rail works. Unloading there was by a lorry-mounted conveyor running between the unloading siding and the storage cells.

[DaveF]

I don't know if it is any help but here is a photo of the wagons at the Cliffe loading terminal.

 

 

Cliffe Brett Marine terminal bogie wagons 18th March 78 C3725

 

 

David

[Lacathedrale]

Wow, what a font of information - thank you all! 

 

I've put together a rather ostentatious plan in the Layout Planning subforum that I'm already thinking might be just slightly over-egged - this does seem a little more grounded! 

[Rivercider]

Hi there,

1. Lastly, my research suggests that BR only approved SOME freight trains to run without brake vans in '85 - realistically what is the likely cut-off point for their use in this traffic?

Many thanks!

The BR network gradually became fully fitted over a number of years, starting in 1968 when a brake van was no longer required if a train was fully fitted.

As the Southern Region had relatively little freight traffic it was one of the first parts of BR to become a fully-fitted railway, probably about 1979 I think,

but certainly well before 1985. Of course brake vans were still required on certain trains, for example the nuclear flask trains to/from Dungeness, and on some trains conveying chemicals to/from the Dover train ferry.

 

cheers 

[SED Freightman]

The same, or very similar, wagons were used to deliver aggregate to the terminal just west of Paddington station that disappeared under the Cross-Rail works. Unloading there was by a lorry-mounted conveyor running between the unloading siding and the storage cells.

 

The wagons you are thinking of operated from Angerstein Wharf and conveyed sea dredged aggregate to terminals at Paddington New Yard, Park Royal, Kings Cross Goods, Luton Limbury Road and Battersea (Stewarts Lane). They were originally operated by Murphy (?), then Marcon, then Tarmac, before being sold to EWS, however through all this they continued to convey the same traffic from Angerstein Wharf.

 

The Marinex / Brett wagons primarily operated from Cliffe to Purley and Salfords, but were also used to the Bat & Ball Redland Sdg and very occasionally to the Allington ARC Sdg.

[scottishlocos]

Hi

 

You can also add class 56's and 59's to your list of locos 56's in blue large logo blue and construction sectors i would say blue or Dutch livery 33 73 37 all of which are available from Dapol and Farish

 

Dave

[black and decker boy]

for Your wagon fleet, you could run anything that Foster Yeoman use between Merehead and London, so in the mid-late 1980s, PGA 4 wheel hoppers, POA 4 wheel opens, ex-iron ore bogie boxes (PTA),

 

There are lots of useful photos on this site including the Brett Marine hoppers used on the Cliffe/ Isle of Grain flows

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/poaggregate

 

In terms of locos, post 1987, freight sectors had specific allocations so look for those based in / around London or on the main inward flows (eg OC, SF, SL and EH) plus locos working out of Westbury.

[Hump Shunter]

Here is a photo of hopper ELC17513 at Purley in December 1984.

 

 

There was also an Engineers siding, where Wickham trolleys and other plant used to park up. Trolley pic from Sept 1990.

 

 

 

 

 

[black and decker boy]

The vehicles were100-ton (not tonne) GLW high-sided bogie hoppers. .

A Tonne is the correct designation in the UK under the metric system (being 1000kg) and is the designation used by Network Rail within Group Standards.

[Fat Controller]

A Tonne is the correct designation in the UK under the metric system (being 1000kg) and is the designation used by Network Rail within Group Standards.

When these wagons were built, they were 100 ton GLW, becoming 102.5t when metric units became standard.

[SED Freightman]

Here is a photo of hopper ELC17513 at Purley in December 1984.

 

red-1984-11a-029-17513_ELC-PHA-Brett-Hopper-Purley-1984-12-01.jpg

 

 

The unloading conveyor can be seen between the rails on the siding between the fence and storage bays, material was moved along under the train to the buffer stop end and then elevated to the tripper conveyor that can be seen running above the storage bays.

[Lacathedrale]

^ I'll be honest I can't see much but I'll have to take your word!

 

@HumpShunter - I guess what I assumed was a holding/storage track was infact the Engineers siding (although now clearly not used for much)?