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Imaginary Rolling Stock

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30 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

On the political side of the argument, I note that none of these trains has ever run in the South East of England, even when they were the latest thing.  I wonder why?

 

You'd have to couple about 30 of them together to carry the volume of commuters for one...

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I've just picked up the latest Railway Magazine and it has an article on the 142's being withdrawn by Northern. Some concern is being expressed about their displacing heritage DMU's on preserved lines.

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2 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

You'd have to couple about 30 of them together to carry the volume of commuters for one...

 

Exactly. The whole point of them is that they provide reliable, cheap service on lines with marginal passenger numbers and fairly low running speeds. 

 

The much-hated EMU units originally cascaded to the Peterborough-KX route would run in 4-car and 8-car sets, at main line running speeds in between the 125s, literally packed to the doors, 80 miles each way for 18 or 19 hours a day. The South Coast services aren't so fast but handle the same sort of loads. That's not work for Pacers. 

Edited by rockershovel
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On 02/09/2019 at 18:55, Satan's Goldfish said:

'What abomination could be created by mating a mk1 coach to a 6 wheel chassis?' Asked no one. But I gave it a go any way.

 

Here we have an SK, FK (with loo), BSK (with loo), and a BG... all of which look horrific to ride in :)

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_09/168378439_3axlemk1.jpg.9b6b4cbb7e1d21fab6832adc51f1418c.jpg

Hi everyone,

 

Just saw this, and noted that there isn't an emoji or emoticon reaction button here resembling throwing up, or feinting in horror.

 

Brilliant, if demented, bit of work here sir.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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40 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

Exactly. The whole point of them is that they provide reliable, cheap service on lines with marginal passenger numbers and fairly low running speeds. 

 

The much-hated EMU units originally cascaded to the Peterborough-KX route would run in 4-car and 8-car sets, at main line running speeds in between the 125s, literally packed to the doors, 80 miles each way for 18 or 19 hours a day. The South Coast services aren't so fast but handle the same sort of loads. That's not work for Pacers. 

Then there was never a point to them in the South Wales valleys, where they halved the seating available on already badly overcrowded rush hour trains into Cardiff, and the overcrowding has got steadily worse as demand has increased.  You might argue that this is the same all over and the trains are victims of their own success, but the Valley services were hardly typified by marginal passenger numbers, as anyone who used to use the 6-car 116 07.35 off Treherbert, standing room only be Tonypandy and rammed at Pontypridd every weekday, will testify.  

 

I'll grant that speeds are relatively low in the Valleys, but point out that Radyr-Crockherbtown Jc is a 70mph road, and Cefn Onn-Crockherbtown Jc is good for 90.  We are a long way from the bucolic Beeching survivors that 'marginal passenger numbers and fairly low running speeds' suggests.  We should have replaced the 116s with Sprinters

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On 02/09/2019 at 21:59, PhilJ W said:

More likely to be four wheels rather than six, de-motored 142 anyone?

Your wish is my command:

railbus_early.jpg

 

You can have one with bogies if you like:

Reading%20in%20service.jpg

Edited by melmerby
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On 03/09/2019 at 13:51, sir douglas said:

ive never had any bad riding with the pacers but then again ive only used them on reasonable or good track; wakefield kirkgate to Elsecar, Agbrigg to Leeds or Leeds to Keighley

 

 

My experience differs with a quite frightful journey from Exeter to Barnstaple, "nodding" all the way.

 

Another journey, from Harrogate to York, was OK for ride but we missed Knaresborough station altogether as we slipped past about 200 metres.

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21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Then there was never a point to them in the South Wales valleys, where they halved the seating available on already badly overcrowded rush hour trains into Cardiff, and the overcrowding has got steadily worse as demand has increased.  You might argue that this is the same all over and the trains are victims of their own success, but the Valley services were hardly typified by marginal passenger numbers, as anyone who used to use the 6-car 116 07.35 off Treherbert, standing room only be Tonypandy and rammed at Pontypridd every weekday, will testify.  

 

I'll grant that speeds are relatively low in the Valleys, but point out that Radyr-Crockherbtown Jc is a 70mph road, and Cefn Onn-Crockherbtown Jc is good for 90.  We are a long way from the bucolic Beeching survivors that 'marginal passenger numbers and fairly low running speeds' suggests.  We should have replaced the 116s with Sprinters

 

We're not really on the same page, here. Railways everywhere were short of rolling stock, from years of neglect and under-investment, at the time. The WAGN EMUs were totally inadequate for the ECML Peterborough-London service, but they soldiered on for years, on a service requiring eight-car sets, four trains in three hours between 0500 and 0800 (over and above the HST) on a three-hour round trip; then eight-car trains hourly until the 1630-1930 rush hour, then four-car sets leaving KX until 0130 or so. AND the stopping trains serving the inner commuter belt, roughly from Huntingdon to Potters Bar. All at main-line running speeds, up to 80 miles on a four-track main line. 

 

And do you know what? We were glad to have them, after the protracted death throes of the LHCS services which preceded them....

 

South Coast commuter services would be running packed trains every fifteen minutes during the rush hour, or more correctly rush three hours. 

 

It really isn't comparable. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by rockershovel
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6 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Some concern is being expressed about their displacing heritage DMU's on preserved lines.

Ooh, that'll attract families with kids. "Are we going to ride on thomas today Mam?"

"No, it's the [email protected]@rd offspring of a bus and the troublesome trucks."

 

I've had too many unpleasant 40 mile journeys on those to ever pay to do it recreationally. Usually with at least one flat on a wheel, rain leaking through the door and the smell of hot metal and exhaust from the heating, screeching round every curves and an irritating rhythm of thumps and bangs from the flat.

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Well, I think at least one ought to be preserved, preferably in NRM where no one will ever have to ride on the thing.  They WERE a quite radical design which formed an important element of the network, and are quite interesting things, in their way. 

 

But yes, they are pretty horrible. 

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Yes the Pacers saved a lot of local services... but they were only supposed to be a short term solution to a shortage of rolling stock. They had an intended lifespan of only 15-20 years. GIven the youngest is now 32 years old the criticism of why they are still around isn't entirely unjustified. Their replacements should have started entering service 20 years ago.

 

Cheers
David

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While we're on the topic, more stuff of nightmares.

 

20PP.jpg

 

Cheers

David

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4 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

Yes the Pacers saved a lot of local services... but they were only supposed to be a short term solution to a shortage of rolling stock. They had an intended lifespan of only 15-20 years. GIven the youngest is now 32 years old the criticism of why they are still around isn't entirely unjustified. Their replacements should have started entering service 20 years ago.

 

Cheers
David

It does seem ironic that much was made if the age of 1st generation DMUs when the Sprinters were being introduced. Now they're about 35 years old but without any obvious replacement in sight in the south-west.

Still, this bit of discussion is rather removed from ' imaginary rolling stock '

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Rich said:

It does seem ironic that much was made if the age of 1st generation DMUs when the Sprinters were being introduced. Now they're about 35 years old but without any obvious replacement in sight in the south-west.

Still, this bit of discussion is rather removed from ' imaginary rolling stock '

 

The same was used for Tyne & Wear Metro, who's units are now older than the original ones! 

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Rich said:

It does seem ironic that much was made if the age of 1st generation DMUs when the Sprinters were being introduced. Now they're about 35 years old but without any obvious replacement in sight in the south-west.

Still, this bit of discussion is rather removed from ' imaginary rolling stock '

No it is bang on, the replacements for the 35 year old Sprinters are still imaginery!:yes:

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8 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

Yes the Pacers saved a lot of local services... but they were only supposed to be a short term solution to a shortage of rolling stock. They had an intended lifespan of only 15-20 years. GIven the youngest is now 32 years old the criticism of why they are still around isn't entirely unjustified. Their replacements should have started entering service 20 years ago.

 

Cheers
David

And many of them now are to be replaced by class 230 units based on redundant London Underground stock that itself is approaching 40 years old. 

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4 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

And many of them now are to be replaced by class 230 units based on redundant London Underground stock that itself is approaching 40 years old. 

And whose ride is questionable on those little bogies, but whose hi-density credentials cannot be doubted.  I think even these are preferable to Pacers, though I'm not condoning them, mind.

 

There is nothing wrong with old stock per se, as long as it meets the needs of the service and current safety and crash resistance requirments.  Pacers never ran with the doors open for 23 minutes!  230s as I understand it will have modern, efficient, quiet, low emission engines and if the internal refurbishment is good, especially in terms of space and upholstery, then they shouldn't be too bad.  But, if you remember them from coming into London every day from Amersham, spare a thought for anyone sitting in one from Cheltenham to Maesteg (admittedly not many passengers make the through journey!).

 

 

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5 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

And many of them now are to be replaced by class 230 units based on redundant London Underground stock that itself is approaching 40 years old. 

 

I seem to recall that London Underground 1938 stock was used up to 1988, and is still in service in the Isle of Wight? 

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5 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

And many of them now are to be replaced by class 230 units based on redundant London Underground stock that itself is approaching 40 years old. 

 

I seem to recall that London Underground 1938 stock was used up to 1988, and is still in service in the Isle of Wight? 

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6 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

somehow, even back in 1981, this was not what I had in mind for 'the future'...

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_09/bleh.JPG.614b3c71b6ca5a434156f5b799df2518.JPG

 

If you could travel back in time, would you kill LEV1?

Good grief, not seen that image before, it looks like a police riot van with that grille over the windscreen! :O Question is, which would rather get a ride in...?

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7 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

somehow, even back in 1981, this was not what I had in mind for 'the future'...

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_09/bleh.JPG.614b3c71b6ca5a434156f5b799df2518.JPG

 

If you could travel back in time, would you kill LEV1?

 

Pay NASA to put it into orbit... and drop them a line about looking into the effects of sudden temperature changes on rubber seals.

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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

And whose ride is questionable on those little bogies, but whose hi-density credentials cannot be doubted.  I think even these are preferable to Pacers, though I'm not condoning them, mind.

 

There is nothing wrong with old stock per se, as long as it meets the needs of the service and current safety and crash resistance requirments.  Pacers never ran with the doors open for 23 minutes!  230s as I understand it will have modern, efficient, quiet, low emission engines and if the internal refurbishment is good, especially in terms of space and upholstery, then they shouldn't be too bad.  But, if you remember them from coming into London every day from Amersham, spare a thought for anyone sitting in one from Cheltenham to Maesteg (admittedly not many passengers make the through journey!).

 

 

They never operated from Amersham which was on the Metropolitan Line which operated the earlier A60 stock (for more than 50 years). The 230 units are built from the D78 stock which was only operated on the District Line.

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