Detailing the Airfix GWR B-sets

[TheGunslinger]

Good morning all,

I've been digging through the forum archives (EDIT: and GWR.org.uk) finding as much information as I can on the Diagram E140 b-set coaches the Airfix 4mm RTR model is based on, and finding ways to spiff them up a bit. There's plenty of information, but not much on how to make those changes happen. I think the simplest way to explain is to list out all my possible improvements and raise any related questions there.

So here goes, in order of easiest to hardest:
-Painting interior and window frames:
This is a no-brainer; there are plenty of images of coach interiors and liveries that I'm just listing this one here because it will still make a dramatic improvement to the coach appearance.

 

-Re-numbering the coaches

Another simple one. However I'm struggling to find anyone who sells the appropriate decals?

-Replacing the window glazing
Self-explanatory. Laserglaze seems to be the go-to, however I'm trying to minimize on multiple shipping costs as I live in Australia. Are there alternatives and/or third party retailers who I may be able to pick up other detailing bits through? So far I'm looking at Dart Castings and Wizard Models as they stock a large range of detailing goodies I can purchase en masse.

-Detailing the bogies:
Options include replacing the bogies with Bachmann 9' bogies with better detail (changing the coaches to Diag. E145), or in the very least adding link rods to the 7' bogies with a little bit of brass wire. As far as I can tell there's nothing else really wrong with the stock 7' bogies, however there are several aftermarket bogies in OO gauge. Are there other details that are absent? Are the stock bogies hard to re-wheel? Are the MJT compensated bogie kits worthwhile?

-Detailing the underframe:
Here's where we get serious. The underframe detail is chunky and rather sad. MJT/Frogmore offer etched brass battery boxes, V-hangers and centre cranks. However I cannot find any options for truss rodding, despite the Airfix parts being frankly awful. Is this a 'standard' detailing option I've overlooked in my trawling? Are there guides for assembling the v-hangers with the appropriate rigging? I remember seeing cast white metal dynamos and brake cylinders (rather than tackle making one from etched brass) but I cannot for the life of me find the seller again.

 

-Coach end detail:
Another significant modification. The E140 buffer bars were straight, not bowed, which means cutting and changing the underframe. Not enormously difficult, however I may only do it on the outer ends as I plan on replacing the buffers as well. I may cut apart and modify the stock "shorty" buffers on the inner end to make them sprung, to help with close coupling. Also required is shaving off excess details that weren't present on the prototype, again relatively trivial. I found a blog post from Fatadder mentioning a detailing kit that had separate end details to replace the molded ones. Can somebody provide a link/manufacturer?
 

-Fill in non-existent guard compartment window
Not sure if I'll bother with this one, unless I'm required to repaint the entire livery.

-Recessed door handles
Again, not sure if I'll bother with this infamous modification, however I have some ideas on how to do it quickly and easily. With an appropriate "stencil" it may be a matter of ripping material with a rotary tool with drill bit, and a bit of filing to get the edges flat and smooth. After that a plastic backer and brass rod handles are a trivial matter. Once again I'll consider it if I repaint the coaches.

Edited February 6, 2018 by TheGunslinger

[chrisf]

Goodness!  No-one else has responded, yet many are qualified so to do.  Oh well, in for a penny ...

 

Before you do anything else, I recommend going to www.gwr.org.uk and drilling down until you find Tim Venton's notes on Bristol Division B sets.  Tim [Tim V of this parish] has a number of modified Airfix origin B sets on his award winning P4 Clutton layout.

 

Next, remember that there is usually more than one way to skin a cat or, as the case may be, customise a model.  What follows is what I would do, with the disclaimer that I do not need a B set on the layout of which I am part owner, so most of it is quite dispassionate.

 

Painting of interior: Humbrol 133 is a good match for mahogany, which the GWR may well have used into the 1930s for panelling their coaches.  Some favour the lighter Humbrol 9, tan, which is a gloss colour and needs a flatting agent.  This is where we are supposed to have a cascade of different ideas from the membership.  Quiet, isn't it?

 

Renumbering: Here you need to do a bit of work.  What period are you modelling?  For post-nationalisation, suitable waterslide numerals and letters are made by Modelmaster and Fox.  However, do not expect the exact numbers you need to be on the sheets.  As a teenager I used the transfers which came with Kitmaster coach kits and a pair of scissors to produce the numbers I wanted.  I don't know where you find transfers for the GWR period.  The website I mentioned earlier gives not only the numbers for each pair of brake composites but in many cases the allocations painted on the outer ends.

 

Glazing: I would use lazer glazing.  The alternative is to take a sheet of clear plastic and cut it into individual panes.  The E140/E145 B sets were among the first GWR coaches to have flush glazing and any glazing which is less than flush will not look right.

 

Bogies: Here we are into personal taste.  I do not like plastic bogies very much, whoever makes them.  Whitemetal side frames give useful weight low down.

 

Detailing the underframe: At the very least your B set deserves better battery boxes etc and the Frogmore examples are as good as any.  The truss rods are awful.  Truss rods are L shaped in cross section.  A few lengths of milled brass L section 1.2 mm x 1.2 mm, a piercing saw, a file, some 145 solder, a good iron and plenty of flux is most of what you need.  You will have the necessary skill by the time you have done the job.  There are lots of useful tips on doing up coaches in the book "Building Coaches" by George Dent [Crowood Press, £25], though what in heaven's name led him to use square brass tube for truss rods instead of L section?  Show me a real coach with square section truss rods.  I dare you!

 

Coach end details: I advise removing all end details as you suggest, but only after you have read the website.  Fatadder's blog is a good read, says he having forgotten to remind myself what he was talking about in that instance.

 

Fill in surplus window:  Go on, you know you want to. 

 

Recessed handles:  Many well-known B set owners have fought shy of this.  A suitable template for carving the recesses is the side of Comet kit W20 or W21, which may be bought separately and then sold on if you have no long-term need for them. 

 

I hope this gives you plenty of food for thought.  Good luck!

 

Chris

[cctransuk]

 

Re-numbering the coaches

Another simple one. However I'm struggling to find anyone who sells the appropriate decals?

 

 

 

See Sheet BL171 at https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[The Fatadder]

I will try and give my thoughts below, though I think Chris has covered most already. Certainly the Tim Venton pages on GWR.org are a priceless resource for B Set modelling.

 

 

Renumbering

I have used the HMRS press fix numbers, although you have to make them up. I think Railtec can do custom complete number sets. Precision Labels sell custom destination signs for the sides, while you will need further custom transfers (I had mine from Railtec) for the ends. I have Kingsbridge Branch No 1 and No2 for Brent, many other branches were similarly named. For North Somerset / Cheddar Valley they were branded Bristol Division No xx

 

Glazing

There are two options, Shawplan Lazerglaze (which is fantastic) or SE Finecast (which isn’t). If you have access to a laser cutter and CAD you can of course make / commission your own, but its probably easier to go with the Lazerglaze.

 

Bogies:

If you can get away with E145 the Bachmann bogies are an easy fit. My original plan was to replace with Comet frames on Bill Bedford sprung centres, now I am looking at improving the plastic ones fitting brakes and the wire linkage. What I really want are the bogies from the new Hornby Colletts, however I need 9 coaches worth and have never seen them available!

 

Underframe

On my first attempt I rebuilt the underframe with L section brass rod along with Frogmoor battery boxes, the 2 pairs I have for Brent – Kingsbridge have yet to be improved, but will eventually get this treatment.

 

Ends

Now I am wracking my brains as to what I may have used when I detailed mine…..

From memory buffers were from Model Railway Developments (although Comet also do square GWR coach buffers), the new bufferbeam was from Evergreen plastic strip, other details were probably from Comet. I am assuming from memory that the linkages / cables etc would have been added from wire.

 

Surpluss Window

The laserglaze kit includes parts to replace, at the very least its worth painting this body colour and fitting.

 

Recessed Door handles

I have looked at a number of options, drilling the corners and cutting, drilling a big hole and filing square, filing flush to make the error less obvious. It’s a huge amount of work, and needs to be very carefully done in order not to look messy. Given Brent is still 2 -3 years away from “completion” I am not in a rush to work on the 2 Kingsbridge branch B Sets I will need. Other than respraying one into Wartime Brown livery, my approach is simple, I will wait until the layout is finished in case Hornby release a new model! If a decent E140 is not available by that time, the easiest route to solve both the glazing, fictional window and dodgy door handles is just to etch some replacement sides

[chrisf]

Point of information re etched sides: Alastair Wright etched a kit for the E140/E145 before he sold 5522 to Paul Willis, aka Flymo.  It might just be worth having a word in an ear.

 

Chris  

[The Fatadder]

Point of information re etched sides: Alastair Wright etched a kit for the E140/E145 before he sold 5522 to Paul Willis, aka Flymo. It might just be worth having a word in an ear.

 

Chris

A good point, and one I will try and remember when the time comes

 

I did speak to Alistair on the subject and was told it wasn’t viable as the kit was such a slow seller, however things may have changed

[TheGunslinger]

Goodness!  No-one else has responded, yet many are qualified so to do.  Oh well, in for a penny ...

 

Before you do anything else, I recommend going to www.gwr.org.uk and drilling down until you find Tim Venton's notes on Bristol Division B sets.  Tim [Tim V of this parish] has a number of modified Airfix origin B sets on his award winning P4 Clutton layout.

Duly done and digested prior to the original post. As mentioned there is plenty of information on what I need to do, but the how is what eluded me.

 

Next, remember that there is usually more than one way to skin a cat or, as the case may be, customise a model.  What follows is what I would do, with the disclaimer that I do not need a B set on the layout of which I am part owner, so most of it is quite dispassionate.

 

Painting of interior: Humbrol 133 is a good match for mahogany, which the GWR may well have used into the 1930s for panelling their coaches.  Some favour the lighter Humbrol 9, tan, which is a gloss colour and needs a flatting agent.  This is where we are supposed to have a cascade of different ideas from the membership.  Quiet, isn't it?

 

Renumbering: Here you need to do a bit of work.  What period are you modelling?  For post-nationalisation, suitable waterslide numerals and letters are made by Modelmaster and Fox.  However, do not expect the exact numbers you need to be on the sheets.  As a teenager I used the transfers which came with Kitmaster coach kits and a pair of scissors to produce the numbers I wanted.  I don't know where you find transfers for the GWR period.  The website I mentioned earlier gives not only the numbers for each pair of brake composites but in many cases the allocations painted on the outer ends.

My intended period is vaguely 1934-39; I like the shirtbutton livery and prewar GWR in general. Sounds like transfers will be difficult but not impossible. Layout will be a fictional countryside branch terminus (I know, cliched) somewhere in the vicinity of Bristol/Gloucester/Swindon. GWR.org.uk was enormously useful on this front as I decided on one of the later Bristol Division B-set numberings that isn't "branded" on the ends with an allocation. Say, 6365 + 6366.

 

Glazing: I would use lazer glazing.  The alternative is to take a sheet of clear plastic and cut it into individual panes.  The E140/E145 B sets were among the first GWR coaches to have flush glazing and any glazing which is less than flush will not look right.

Very useful information, thank you. I'm not railroaded into using a kit but whatever my solution it has to be flush.

 

Bogies: Here we are into personal taste.  I do not like plastic bogies very much, whoever makes them.  Whitemetal side frames give useful weight low down.

 

Detailing the underframe: At the very least your B set deserves better battery boxes etc and the Frogmore examples are as good as any.  The truss rods are awful.  Truss rods are L shaped in cross section.  A few lengths of milled brass L section 1.2 mm x 1.2 mm, a piercing saw, a file, some 145 solder, a good iron and plenty of flux is most of what you need.  You will have the necessary skill by the time you have done the job.  There are lots of useful tips on doing up coaches in the book "Building Coaches" by George Dent [Crowood Press, £25], though what in heaven's name led him to use square brass tube for truss rods instead of L section?  Show me a real coach with square section truss rods.  I dare you!

If the done thing is to scratchbuild the trusses from L section then that is what I will do. I'll see what I can do about getting George's book, thank you. In the very least they will be getting etched battery boxes, however I am curious about going a step further with V-hangers, brake rigging and vacuum cylinder.

 

Coach end details: I advise removing all end details as you suggest, but only after you have read the website.  Fatadder's blog is a good read, says he having forgotten to remind myself what he was talking about in that instance.

Already aware of what needs to be done. As per Fatadder's answer below it seems like if I want emergency brake details better than cast-on, I'll have to scratch build.

 

Fill in surplus window:  Go on, you know you want to. 

I really do. The real hurdle is matching paint on vintage Airfix models, unless I want to repaint the entire thing, decals and all.

 

Recessed handles:  Many well-known B set owners have fought shy of this.  A suitable template for carving the recesses is the side of Comet kit W20 or W21, which may be bought separately and then sold on if you have no long-term need for them. 

 

I hope this gives you plenty of food for thought.  Good luck!

 

Chris

 

 

See Sheet BL171 at https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

Is BR era numbering the same style (or close enough) to prewar GWR coach lettering? Depending on how involved I get I may also have to re-apply decals for compartment allocations as well.

 

 

I will try and give my thoughts below, though I think Chris has covered most already. Certainly the Tim Venton pages on GWR.org are a priceless resource for B Set modelling.

 

 

Renumbering

I have used the HMRS press fix numbers, although you have to make them up. I think Railtec can do custom complete number sets. Precision Labels sell custom destination signs for the sides, while you will need further custom transfers (I had mine from Railtec) for the ends. I have Kingsbridge Branch No 1 and No2 for Brent, many other branches were similarly named. For North Somerset / Cheddar Valley they were branded Bristol Division No xx

Holy moly the HMRS transfers are PERFECT. Added bonus of having loco numbering and insignia, which I'm also in the market for.

Glazing

There are two options, Shawplan Lazerglaze (which is fantastic) or SE Finecast (which isn’t). If you have access to a laser cutter and CAD you can of course make / commission your own, but its probably easier to go with the Lazerglaze.

Thank you for the nudge towards Shawplan. CAD is readily available to me (draftsman by trade) and a laser cutter may be available. Very useful information.

 

Bogies:

If you can get away with E145 the Bachmann bogies are an easy fit. My original plan was to replace with Comet frames on Bill Bedford sprung centres, now I am looking at improving the plastic ones fitting brakes and the wire linkage. What I really want are the bogies from the new Hornby Colletts, however I need 9 coaches worth and have never seen them available!

I'm seriously consdering "tricking out" the plastic ones. Depending on how stubborn it is I want to install metal wheelsets with tophat bearings.

 

Underframe

On my first attempt I rebuilt the underframe with L section brass rod along with Frogmoor battery boxes, the 2 pairs I have for Brent – Kingsbridge have yet to be improved, but will eventually get this treatment.

No intention of including brake gear? I guess you barely see it so maybe I can skip it too.

 

Ends

Now I am wracking my brains as to what I may have used when I detailed mine…..

From memory buffers were from Model Railway Developments (although Comet also do square GWR coach buffers), the new bufferbeam was from Evergreen plastic strip, other details were probably from Comet. I am assuming from memory that the linkages / cables etc would have been added from wire.

I'm unsure if Comet's range has decreased in recent years or if I'm simply looking in the wrong place; I could not find anything related to coach end details apart from frets of the entire coach end with little information on what you actually got.

Surpluss Window

The laserglaze kit includes parts to replace, at the very least its worth painting this body colour and fitting.

 

Recessed Door handles

I have looked at a number of options, drilling the corners and cutting, drilling a big hole and filing square, filing flush to make the error less obvious. It’s a huge amount of work, and needs to be very carefully done in order not to look messy. Given Brent is still 2 -3 years away from “completion” I am not in a rush to work on the 2 Kingsbridge branch B Sets I will need. Other than respraying one into Wartime Brown livery, my approach is simple, I will wait until the layout is finished in case Hornby release a new model! If a decent E140 is not available by that time, the easiest route to solve both the glazing, fictional window and dodgy door handles is just to etch some replacement sides

Upon having a further snoop on Comet's site, I discovered a GWR coach detail kit that included two cast battery boxes, two cast vacuum cylinders and a cast dynamo! Jackpot!

Edited February 6, 2018 by TheGunslinger

[The Fatadder]

Upon having a further snoop on Comet's site, I discovered a GWR coach detail kit that included two cast battery boxes, two cast vacuum cylinders and a cast dynamo! Jackpot!

The end jumper cables are included in the pack with the buffers, I think it is ECW3

 

Re the bogies, while I haven't fitted brass bearings to mine yet, its not particularly difficult with an axle drill or even just pressing in with a soldering iron.  Mine have been retrofitted with metal wheels which made a big difference, along with closer coupling. 

 

As for the brakes, my standard approach on a kit build coach (which will be eventually be replicated on Airfix / Mainline RTR coaches should they stay in service) is to use L section brass for the trusses, then add battery boxes (frogmore), dynamo / vac cylinder (MJT or Comet), V hangers (MJT I think, but I use a lot of scrap frets, leftovers from kits etc), then connect it all up with brass rod.

 

I have taken a Hornby Collett coach as my benchmark against which I am trying to standardise detail wise.

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Post 88 shows a poor photo of my Bogie upgrade and the headstock replacement. I wish I could show a completed picture of the D109 that this is becoming but my modelling proceeds at a pace similar to earth tectonics but without the occasional jump.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116180-comet-k40-brake-airfix-b-set-conversion/page-4

 

Oakhill

[cctransuk]

See Sheet BL171 at https://www.cctrans....uk/products.htm .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

Is BR era numbering the same style (or close enough) to prewar GWR coach lettering? Depending on how involved I get I may also have to re-apply decals for compartment allocations as well.

 

No, I'm afraid not.

 

Sorry,

John Isherwood.

[gwrrob]

Point of information re etched sides: Alastair Wright etched a kit for the E140/E145 before he sold 5522 to Paul Willis, aka Flymo.  It might just be worth having a word in an ear.

 

Chris

 

His website link is dead but his email is info@5522models.co.uk

[TheGunslinger]

No, I'm afraid not.

 

Sorry,

John Isherwood.

That's okay, I found the HMRS decal set which has everything I need for coach side lettering.

[sjrixon]

Are you going to start a separate build log. I've 4 of these and very tempted to make them into a project soon! So be good to see how you get on.

[cctransuk]

 

Renumbering: Here you need to do a bit of work.  What period are you modelling?  For post-nationalisation, suitable waterslide numerals and letters are made by Modelmaster and Fox.  However, do not expect the exact numbers you need to be on the sheets.  As a teenager I used the transfers which came with Kitmaster coach kits and a pair of scissors to produce the numbers I wanted.  I don't know where you find transfers for the GWR period.  The website I mentioned earlier gives not only the numbers for each pair of brake composites but in many cases the allocations painted on the outer ends.

 

 

For the BR era, see sheet BL171 at https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[TheGunslinger]

Are you going to start a separate build log. I've 4 of these and very tempted to make them into a project soon! So be good to see how you get on.

I might just leave it as part of this thread.

 

With that in mind, Update #1!

 

I've gotten my hands on some 2mm brass L-section (I know 1.3mm is more scale accurate but 2mm is a little stronger and was readily available at a local hobby shop) to replace the underframe truss. I also acquired two frets of Mk1 Sprat & Winkle couplings for a bargain on Ebay, which are perfect for coaching stock since they will rarely be shunted. I'm also collating my notes to make a big order of bits from Wizard, among which will be some underframe castings and etches from Comet, and some 18" sprung buffer heads.

 

While waiting on detail parts I plan to make a start on painting the interior and adding a few passengers.

[sjrixon]

Cool! Sprung buffer heads, very nice.

 

Time to get a razor saw on the underframes then!