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Greater Anglia's Stadler Flirt - Class 745 & 755

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Interesting article regarding new Flirts in Italy

 

https://railcolornews.com/2019/10/30/it-stadler-flirt-bemus-for-valle-daosta-enters-service-but-not-without-problems/
 

Quote


In an answer, dated from 21.10.2019, Stadler issued an apology for the recently caused inconveniences. The manufacturer confirmed that there are issues, related to the development of the rolling stock, and more specifically: ‘the interaction between vehicles and the specific railway infrastructure of the line.’

 

 

my bold.

 

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Last week - which prompted the suspension of services - a unit had a wrong side failure on the Cromer line, the signals stayed at green behind it !

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On 06/12/2019 at 18:53, russ p said:

 

Or more like they won't admit there is potentially a problem with their new trains 

 

If the trains were built to the required specification it isn't actually a problem with the trains.

 

Cockup, yes but not actually the fault of Stadler. It's not as clear cut as simply blaming the new units.

 

Of course the answer to that isn't yet in the public domain.

Edited by admiles

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3 hours ago, admiles said:

 

If the trains were built to the required specification it isn't actually a problem with the trains.

 

Cockup, yes but not actually the fault of Stadler. It's not as clear cut as simply blaming the new units.

 

Of course the answer to that isn't yet in the public domain.

 

Apart from the simple fact that every other class of loco and or unit that works over the lines doesn't have a problem ?

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3 hours ago, admiles said:

 

If the trains were built to the required specification it isn't actually a problem with the trains.

 

Cockup, yes but not actually the fault of Stadler. It's not as clear cut as simply blaming the new units.

 

Of course the answer to that isn't yet in the public domain.

That is definitely where I would start.  There appears to be something about these trains which means they do not correctly operate some track circuits.  That could mean there is smething in the specification/design which is not right and it also raises the question of whether or not the trains were specified as being required to reliably operate certain types of track circuit in all operating conditions?

 

Far worse than all of that is this must raise some very serious questions about the test phase.  Trains don't suddenly cease to operate track circuits they were correctly operating a few days or weeks previously - the laws of physics don't change by whim.  What can change of course - as already mentioned - is wheel/railhead contamination (by leaves at this time of year).  But leaves fall off trees every year so that should have been considered in the spec/design and one has to ask if that was not the case why was it not the case?  Does the answer lie in very low unsprung weight and/or the wheel profile?

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Well as a season ticket holder who had both his regular trains caped today, number one priority is to sort out the problem.

AGA should then offer a discount on season renewals as a good will gesture. 

 

Then Stadler and Abellio can make some lawyers rich(er) by mud flinging and finger pointing in court. 

 

I do appreciate the discussion here though and await the RAIB report with interest. Typically, how long would such an undertaking take?

 

C6T. 

Edited by Classsix T

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28 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

Apart from the simple fact that every other class of loco and or unit that works over the lines doesn't have a problem ?

 

You've missed the point there....  Try reading what I typed again.

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1 minute ago, Classsix T said:

Well as a season ticket holder who had both his regular trains caped today, number one priority is to sort out the problem.

AGA should then offer a discount on season renewals as a good will gesture. 

 

Then Stadler and Abellio can make some lawyers rich by mud flinging and finger pointing in court. 

 

I do appreciate the discussion here though and await the RAIB report with interest. Typically, how long would such an undertaking take?

 

C6T. 

I'd be surprised if we see some sort of interim RAIB report in less than 4 weeks, I doubt we'll see the full report in under a year (and probably longer).  In the meantime from everybody's point of view I trust that NR, the operator, and rolling stock owner are doing something to identify the problem then at least mitigate it sufficiently to get the trains back on their booked work before any longer term solution is implemented

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38 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

Apart from the simple fact that every other class of loco and or unit that works over the lines doesn't have a problem ?

Stadler didn't build those trains. If they weren't told about the specific properties of them which makes them work then it's not their fault if they didn't include them. And if they were told and haven't built to the spec they were provided then it is their fault. My experience in engineering is that some suppliers do exactly what's specified whether it's right or not, others build what they want regardless of what the spec says, and some will work with the clients to get things as close to what they actually want (as opposed to what they asked for) as possible. I doubt we'll ever find out how this particular train supplying contact went, but my experience suggests that it all stems from how good or otherwise the initial specification is.

 

It's not a new issue though. BR was quite capable of similar cock ups, remember the 158s having to run with vehicles from other units because on their own they didn't work with the infrastructure?

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I recall an interview with the then Chief Exec of Railtrack/NR (probably the latter organisation actually) and for whatever reason I particularly remember that his major concern was that the new trains then being introduced seemed to bear little concern with axle loading weights. He stated something along the lines of ROSCOS via the TOCs wanting all the bells and whistles with scant regard to the resultant wear and tear on the infrastructure, both in terms of power consumption and track "damage". Arguably he may well have been showing his hand from higher ups demanding reduced costs, fair enough, but lighter and less power hungry was his mantra. Made sense to me at the time.

 

My point being (eventually!) if indeed these units are light, which may or may not be contributory to their current woes, is that beneficial to the TOC in terms of track access charges hence its attractiveness?

 

C6T. 

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11 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

It's their plate on the cab bulkhead, just decoration is it, or they're happy to plonk their name on third party hardware? 

 

C6T. 

 

Zomboid was referring to the other types of train on the routes, not the 745/755 sets.

 

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9 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Zomboid was referring to the other types of train on the routes, not the 745/755 sets.

 

Ah, thank you and apologies to the Hypnotoad. His first paragraph by my understanding consequently made no sense to me at all. I'm not long for the care home chaps..!

 

C6T. 

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Stadler have built similar trains which have been working in all sorts of mainland European countries for several years and I haven't read of similar problems with them - it would be interesting to know what's different about these trains, or this country!

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7 minutes ago, 31A said:

Stadler have built similar trains which have been working in all sorts of mainland European countries for several years and I haven't read of similar problems with them - it would be interesting to know what's different about these trains, or this country!

 

See the link I posted earlier Steve

 

 

Edited by beast66606
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1 minute ago, beast66606 said:

 

See the link I posted earlier Steve

 

 

Oh sorry, I've been 'off line' for a few days & catching up by skimming!  The thought occurred to me a few days ago actually, but wasn't able to ask the question then.

 

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A bit of an improvement today :

 

Ipswich / Felixstowe - suspended

East Suffolk - 2 hourly

Ipswich / Peterborough - suspended

Norwich / Sheringham - delays due to TSR

 

Norwich / Cambridge - terminating at/starting from Ely, some cancellations proposed yesterday but quite a few (all ?) actually ran

Ipswich / Cambridge - service restored

Sudbury - service restored (actually retored yesterday morning)

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I can't understand why they aren't trying to hire some stock, I know it wouldn't be too popular up north but hire 153s and 156s off northern and keep the 142s a bit longer.  They couldn't be used on GA as no one signs them 

Then there is always the short set(s) but the modern railway is too obsessed with image to let BR stock replace their shiny new white  elephants 

When BR had problems with 143s and 155s they used anything to keep the job running and 158s were kept out of it when it was realised they needed track circuit actuators until they were fitted 

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25 minutes ago, russ p said:

I can't understand why they aren't trying to hire some stock, I know it wouldn't be too popular up north but hire 153s and 156s off northern and keep the 142s a bit longer.  They couldn't be used on GA as no one signs them 

Then there is always the short set(s) but the modern railway is too obsessed with image to let BR stock replace their shiny new white  elephants 

When BR had problems with 143s and 155s they used anything to keep the job running and 158s were kept out of it when it was realised they needed track circuit actuators until they were fitted 

 

For a while there were some 156/158 2 car hybrids formed up as an interim measure.  BR could be very resourceful at getting around problems like this and keeping the job going.

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My thought is that it is a repeat of the problems with the 158s, as Russ' said Track Circuit Actuators were fitted and the three car sets additionally got scrubber blocks (tread brake blocks) on the outer bogies.

 

It may be a combination of factors lightweight stock, disk brakes (unable to clean tyres), weather/railhead contamination.

 

Mark Saunders

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Apparently they are fitted with TCAs , maybe a delner fitted conflat on each end would do the trick! 

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Hornby used to do an adaptor truck when they took over Hornby-Dublo - maybe they could find some old stock somewhere, or do a quick 3D print of some?

 

Stewart

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