Bachmann 2018 mid-year update

[Dunsignalling]

How comes Heljan manages exactly that, then? They are one manufacturer that doesn't indulge in the teasing strategy of releasing less popular liveries first, to try to tempt us suckers to buy liveries we wouldn't normally buy.

There's an easy way to put a stop to the practice - don't fall for it.

[rob D2]

I’m

Not a businessman but surely any company starts with “ we need to make this much % profit on this item “ and works from that to get a RRP .

 

Although I do think they risk getting eclipsed by new entrants retooling some of the more popular diesels I still believe in relation to inflation , what they pay in Europe etc they are not bad value

[PMP]

No doubt the contemporary prototype relatively short lived Franchise liveries don’t help, adding to additional costs with licensing as well as choosing the most popular schemes to return a profit.

[Melly]

No doubt the contemporary prototype relatively short lived Franchise liveries don’t help, adding to additional costs with licensing as well as choosing the most popular schemes to return a profit.

 

So the DCR 'limited appeal' 56 only produced because they had already paid for the licensing agreement having produced the 31 ?  Interesting suggestion.   But are Hornby marketing that stupid that they produce a loco only 15% of the market are interested in just because it's production costs are marginal less than other liveries ?

 

M

[Dunsignalling]

So the DCR 'limited appeal' 56 only produced because they had already paid for the licensing agreement having produced the 31 ?  Interesting suggestion.   But are Hornby marketing that stupid that they produce a loco only 15% of the market are interested in just because it's production costs are marginal less than other liveries ?

 

M

More a case, I suspect, of getting it out while there was anybody still interested in it.

 

John

[dibber25]

The thing is though, currently they are not coming all at once and new releases from Bachmann have been slow, some new all new releases taking nearly 6 months to get just three liveries out between the first and last release. My suggestion of 6 liveries in the first run is just for all new loco releases which are few are far between. Re-runs can keep to their current low levels. For certain classes, it could even be REP releases, targeting locos to certain areas (or if 4 classes are coming out covering 4 regions, have a REP version of each one targeting shops for that region only).

Currently they and the 500 or so small model shops are loosing out against bigger shops with their special commissions which today probably outnumber a general release.

 

At the end of the day, a business model adapts to the market (though complex this one has become) and not vice versa. Bachmann had small losses each year due to too few releases, it costs more to set up re-runs rather than run off twice as many variants in the first batch, they face strong competition from new players not playing the same game. They need to recover costs in year 1 not year 2 or 3. There are not too many conclusions. When Modelrail added extra USA tanks to their initial release, I brought more of them. Overall sales were better even if some dilution occurred. I agree that they should not go Hattons extremes of 12-16 releases in one go. But 2 or 3 - in a day when they are very slow to get a release out - is not enough.

 

You should not assume that what happened with the Model Rail 'USAs' initially is typical of what happens with a new release. Commissioned models are somewhat different from standard range models. There's an additional party involved which adds to the complexity of production and also to the cost. There is also some negotiation around the minimum quantity - which initially was 3,000 and whether one does six liveries at 500 each or splits the run in some different way. Model Rail also expected to have to take all the models in a single run but Bachmann has subsequently allowed a second run and hence the current additional 4 models for which pre-orders are currently being taken. Deciding which liveries to do first and which will need most examples is another guessing game - hence the re-run of one of the green liveries. Manufacturers don't deliberately set out to frustrate buyers by not doing the most popular liveries in the first run. They generally do what they believe to be the most popular liveries but that, too, is often a guessing game, particularly with modern liveries where preferences change much more quickly. (CJL)

Edited September 10, 2018 by dibber25

[The Johnster]

How comes Heljan manages exactly that, then? They are one manufacturer that doesn't indulge in the teasing strategy of releasing less popular liveries first, to try to tempt us suckers to buy liveries we wouldn't normally buy.

 

I think a manufacturer who teases with unpopular liveries is playing a dangerous game, both with our confidence and it's financial backers who want a return asap.  Surely the first production run of a new model needs to sell well and quickly to generate income so that some of it's costs can be recouped, and the most popular livery is best for this purpose.  More esoteric liveries can wait for a time when the costs are a bit more redacted and there is a bit more wobble room from the board and the investors.

 

But I accept that I am coming at this from a steam outline perspective; modern image modellers have more livery issues to deal with than we do as the current railway scene is much more volatile in this respect.  

[locoholic]

I think a manufacturer who teases with unpopular liveries is playing a dangerous game, both with our confidence and it's financial backers who want a return asap.  Surely the first production run of a new model needs to sell well and quickly to generate income so that some of it's costs can be recouped, and the most popular livery is best for this purpose.  More esoteric liveries can wait for a time when the costs are a bit more redacted and there is a bit more wobble room from the board and the investors.

 

But I accept that I am coming at this from a steam outline perspective; modern image modellers have more livery issues to deal with than we do as the current railway scene is much more volatile in this respect.

 

I would have thought so too, but in post #145 Andy said that issuing multiple liveries lowers the profitability. So either Heljan deliberately aims to reduce their profits, or what Andy said is wrong.

 

I also model steam era, and both Hornby and Bachmann have skipped some obvious livery choices - the Hornby Schools has yet to appear in BR green late crest with a single chimney, and we are still waiting for Bachmann's LMS Porthole coaches in BR maroon - just two of many, many examples. Not sure if it's a dangerous game, or just foolish.

['CHARD]

I would have thought so too, but in post #145 Andy said that issuing multiple liveries lowers the profitability. So either Heljan deliberately aims to reduce their profits, or what Andy said is wrong.

 

 

Heljan doesn't usually issue multiple liveries, that's the point.  

[locoholic]

Heljan doesn't usually issue multiple liveries, that's the point.

 

Yes they do. Batches of six, minimum.

[rembrow]

I think a manufacturer who teases with unpopular liveries is playing a dangerous game, both with our confidence and it's financial backers who want a return asap. Surely the first production run of a new model needs to sell well and quickly to generate income so that some of it's costs can be recouped, and the most popular livery is best for this purpose. More esoteric liveries can wait for a time when the costs are a bit more redacted and there is a bit more wobble room from the board and the investors.

 

But I accept that I am coming at this from a steam outline perspective; modern image modellers have more livery issues to deal with than we do as the current railway scene is much more volatile in this respect.

Some Bachmann models that surprised me, in not selling out for about 3 years, were the Porthole coaches. They were a steam era model and were produced in crimson/cream livery. It took 4 years to get the models produced as they had to be redesigned and in production the brake third was rejected with livery errors. Bachmann invested in 6 coach types with two chassis lengths. They had to rework remaining stock with weathering to finally sell them to retailers, however the reworking probably had limited appeal as the running numbers weren't changed. The prototypes only had 3 liveries -BR crimson/cream, maroon and blue/grey, with only a few painted in blue/grey. So it took Bachmann 6 years from the medels original announcement to go for the second and arguably more saleable livery of BR maroon and that livery looks like it will be 2 years after announcement, before it gets to retailers. The maroon livery is the version I'm interested in, so it's been a long and frustrating wait since the announcement. Contrast that timescale with another pre nationalisation coach design, produced post nationalisation by BR - the Hawksworth mainline coach. Hornby's model was announced about the same time as the Porthole coaches and in the intervening period Hornby have produced all five coach styles in 3 different liveries and have this year released BR blood/custard versions for the second time. For the Portholes to have such a lengthy period to be both produced and remain in stock, must have been a loss if their tooling costs were accounted for in the first year they were made, particularly if Bachmann had to pay for the revisions that required new tooling. I wonder if this is going to be repeated with the Thompson coach stock, where again the BR maroon livery has not been produced with the initial runs. I recall that when the previously tooled Thompson coaches were produced in circa 1991, the BR c/c and maroon liveries were both issued as the first releases with the faux teak as a later release. Bachmann has spent some time and presumably cost in producing the current model in faux teak, but for a short lived livery is it a seller, when surely the maroon would have brought in much higher sales in the first year.

['CHARD]

Yes they do. Batches of six, minimum.

 

Ah, I think we're at cross-purposes.

 

Heljan issues for example, six Class 17s - two blue with alternate colour roofs and different running numbers, two GFYE with different running numbers and two GSYP with different running numbers.  Generally, each of a pair has equal shelf appeal, but in the example above there's only two basic liveries issued.  When these are sold out, and after a dignified interval, a similar selection are issued.  The only odd balls have been the cement livery and RTC test train loco, but these were issued alongside standard green and blue options.  Heljan almost guarantees that the two core options are generally available, somewhere.

 

Heljan doesn't these days produce contemporary locos, as it has consolidated on transition diesels primarily - the most recent prototypes in latter years being class 26 in Railfreight liveries.  

 

The livery turf-wars of the red team seem to be played out on privatisation era esoterica.  Heljan have not, since the lukewarmly received 86, reentered post-1997 waters.

 

That's my take on the Danish team anyway, unless I've spectacularly missed the point.

[The Johnster]

I suspect that modern electronic computer controlled paint delivery printing systems mean that changing liveries is much less of an expense, consumes less time and effort, and is easier to implement for companies deze daze.  The R & D is the same as ever, of course!

[PMP]

I suspect that modern electronic computer controlled paint delivery printing systems mean that changing liveries is much less of an expense, consumes less time and effort, and is easier to implement for companies deze daze.  The R & D is the same as ever, of course!

Which companies use those systems then? As far as I’m aware a large proportion of manufacturers are using Tampo printing which requires manual intervention in the process, (another labour cost).

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u0DYxnNL28Q Twelve minutes in..

[rob D2]

^^^^^^

Wot he said. In the Bachmann collectors mag, there is an in depth series of articles on making models. Surprising how much is done by hand ( pretty much all of it other than actually squirting the plastic ) in the mound . Use of paint masks is wide spread for manual spraying

[locoholic]

Ah, I think we're at cross-purposes.

 

Heljan issues for example, six Class 17s - two blue with alternate colour roofs and different running numbers, two GFYE with different running numbers and two GSYP with different running numbers.  Generally, each of a pair has equal shelf appeal, but in the example above there's only two basic liveries issued.  When these are sold out, and after a dignified interval, a similar selection are issued.  The only odd balls have been the cement livery and RTC test train loco, but these were issued alongside standard green and blue options.  Heljan almost guarantees that the two core options are generally available, somewhere.

 

Heljan doesn't these days produce contemporary locos, as it has consolidated on transition diesels primarily - the most recent prototypes in latter years being class 26 in Railfreight liveries.  

 

The livery turf-wars of the red team seem to be played out on privatisation era esoterica.  Heljan have not, since the lukewarmly received 86, reentered post-1997 waters.

 

That's my take on the Danish team anyway, unless I've spectacularly missed the point.

That's simply not the case. Heljan release every variation, from plain green, green with SYP, green with full yellow ends, blue with SYP, blue with pre-TOPS, etc etc. Hornby and Bachmann never get round to the more esoteric options. As a consequence, I have proportionally more Heljan models, and they get more of my money quicker, whilst the blue and yellow teams get just a bit of my money every now and then.

[The Johnster]

Which companies use those systems then? As far as I’m aware a large proportion of manufacturers are using Tampo printing which requires manual intervention in the process, (another labour cost).

 

Twelve minutes in..

 

I stand informed and corrected, but Tampo is still much easier than pre-electronic hand applied or transfer liveries.

[PMP]

I stand informed and corrected, but Tampo is still much easier than pre-electronic hand applied or transfer liveries.

Pls read post 166

[adb968008]

Some Bachmann models that surprised me, in not selling out for about 3 years, were the Porthole coaches.

I’m surprised too, they are amongst the nicest coaches I have, even in blood and custard.

[phil-b259]

....but Tampo is still much easier than pre-electronic hand applied or transfer liveries.

 

Wrong!

 

To accurately Tampo print liveries and incredible detail on todays finely detailed models is a skilled task and no quicker / any less labour intensive than the methods used in the past.

 

Far too many in the model community seem to think that technological advances over the past 4 decades or so automatically mean its much cheaper / easier to make models these days while seemingly forgetting that todays models have far more fine detail and separately fitted parts than ever before which negates most said technological advances.

[Coryton]

I’m

Not a businessman but surely any company starts with “ we need to make this much % profit on this item “ and works from that to get a RRP .

 

 

Generally so far as I know it's the other way round. The starting point for the price is what you think you can sell the item for. The profit is then the difference between the wholesale cost and what the product costs to manufacture/ship to the UK etc. Maybe RRP is a set percentage above the wholesale cost. I don't know. Anyway, there will be some lower limit on profit margin below which you don't go ahead and make it. But there shouldn't be a set upper limit. (I can think of some examples where I suspect model pricing has indeed been worked out as costs+margin, but I doubt the likes of Hornby or Bachmann work that way).

 

Of course it's not as simple as that because as costs go up, the price has to go up and the price the market will bear changes (or not, in which case you don't have a business any more). 

 

If you look at what Hornby charge for some of their Railroad models or (better example) plastic platform sections, it certainly doesn't look as if they set the RRP as a fixed percentage above manufacture costs. And nor should they, though some of their prices seem higher than you might think is in their interests.

[jjb1970]

I look at it this way, if Bachmann (or indeed Hornby, or Dapol, or Heljan) models are delayed I find it annoying but what have I lost? I haven't paid up front, if the SRP doubles between announcement and delivery I can always just walk away and buy something else and I can wait until it is released when I can make my own decision as to whether or not to buy. Personally I feel there is a lot to be said for that, and it's why although I probably say intemperate things at times I do appreciate what we get from companies like Bachmann. Remember, they're carrying their own risk and paying their own bills based on sales.

[Legend]

Ah, I think we're at cross-purposes.

 

Heljan issues for example, six Class 17s - two blue with alternate colour roofs and different running numbers, two GFYE with different running numbers and two GSYP with different running numbers. Generally, each of a pair has equal shelf appeal, but in the example above there's only two basic liveries issued. When these are sold out, and after a dignified interval, a similar selection are issued. The only odd balls have been the cement livery and RTC test train loco, but these were issued alongside standard green and blue options. Heljan almost guarantees that the two core options are generally available, somewhere.

 

Heljan doesn't these days produce contemporary locos, as it has consolidated on transition diesels primarily - the most recent prototypes in latter years being class 26 in Railfreight liveries.

 

The livery turf-wars of the red team seem to be played out on privatisation era esoterica. Heljan have not, since the lukewarmly received 86, reentered post-1997 waters.

 

That's my take on the Danish team anyway, unless I've spectacularly missed the point.

With the 26 you’ve got green, blue, railfreight red stripe, railfreight triple grey. Pretty much every option in one release and variations within these . Edited September 10, 2018 by Legend

[darren01]

Look at the 4 Cep a few years ago Hatton's where selling them for £69.99, Do you think shops like Hatton's are taking a hit on sales, I don't think so.

So i wonder what the mark up is for them to be able to sell them at that price and not loss money?.

Edited September 10, 2018 by darren01

[mdvle]

Yes, it is what is happening in the US. Looking at the October 2018 issue of Model Railroader, I see many examples of "cheap DC and expensive DCC" with nothing in between. Three examples will suffice:

 

p.3, advert, Walthers GEVO diesels: ESU Sound & DCC, $199.99; Standard DC $129.98.

p.12, news and products, Walthers EMD F7A&B diesels: dual-mode SoundTraxx sound decoder $369.98; DC $249.98.

p.62, product review, Athearn HO scale 'early' Challengers: DCC & Sound, $629.98; DC no sound $529.98.

 

Which totally missed the context of the thread given that they are identical models except for the electronics.

 

The initial poster said 

 

 

I foresee the price problem being solved by a 2 level approach; a 'no frills' basic DC and a highly detailed 'full fat' DCC with all the whistles and bells (literally) version.  This is already happening in Europe and the US

 

which is not the same thing as you have quoted prices on.

 

The closest to what became known as "design clever" in the UK would be as I said ScaleTrains with their Operator vs Rivet Counter product lines, except:

 

1) both lines come in either DC or DCC/Sound, whereas the implication was that it was an Operator/DC or Rivet Counter DCC/Sound split.

 

2) the latest announcement from ScaleTrains is not being made available in the Operator line.  When combined with the fact that nobody else is copying (in the US) the split lines of products it is an indication that it may not be as popular as some may wish it to be.