A New Hope - Great Model Railway Challenge benefits

[jcm@gwr]

Alright, I'll put my hand up and ask, after donning my dunce's hat!

What is/are ABC1 & C2DE? 

[sjp23480]

I am no expert, but as we try to attract young talent into our hobby the novelty factor plays a big part in making it accessible.  If their imagination can be captured at a young age, there is every chance they will grow into "real" modellers, developing their skills to appreciate the complexity of the more serious elements of the hobby.  

 

There will always be detractors (Gogglebox), but their disdain was more a reaction to the novelty elements, not dissimilar to some the comments from some "real modellers".  Would the Gogglebox commentators have different reaction to the work of Allan Downes or Larry Goddard?

 

Model railways are not for everyone, nor are many other hobbies: football, golf, cricket, D&D, Warhammer, RC cars or aircraft, ornithology, etc...…  but I say "live and let live".

 

Ultimately, the programme is introducing the hobby to a new audience and if only 5% of viewers take it up, the hobby will be in a better place for it.  Established practitioners should encourage new entrants to explore the hobby, providing nurture and inspiration to keep them engaged.

 

Steve

[wombatofludham]

The old style socio-economic groupings much beloved of advertisers, politicians, planners and marketing wonks.  It has been updated and refined but everyone still uses the old classifications even though they are no longer particularly relevant.

 

ABC1 roughly corresponds to managerial, professionals and clerical, sometimes called "white collar" or if you are a class warrior, "middle class"
C2DE are skilled manual, unskilled manual and thelike, the old fashioned "blue collar" or "working class".

Unfortunately the modern economy is far more fine grained than that but the classification is still useful for more "social policy" and "social attitude" rather than as a measure for spending power.  When some train and lorry drivers earn as much as some airline pilots you can see why this blunt tool is no longer appropriate for economic classification.

[Signalist]

Alright, I'll put my hand up and ask, after donning my dunce's hat!

What is/are ABC1 & C2DE? 

 

Social classifications used by advertisers to see if the audience is worth pitching to - it goes from A (King, Queen etc.) down to E (frequent inmate at Wormwood Scrubs) or something along those lines. The people considered to have a fair bit of dosh are in the A, B, and top half of C classifications, hence ABC1. I am sure that Wikipedia will describe it more accurately.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade

 

While my club is full of pensioners the proceeds from their downsizing and generous pensions mean that they are much better off than most working people and able to afford the hobby.

[Andy Hayter]

Socio-economic groupings.

A = them with the wherewithall to own what they want

B = them as would be A but lack the funds

C1 = relatively educated folk trying to make their way but struggline

C2 = those struggleing to be C1 - but in reality are probably making more money than the C1s because they failed to get a degree in media studies and sports, and instead became plumbers and other much needed trades

D = those  who failed to gain any real skills

E = those who do not even aspire to be D.

 

Sorry for a pejorative view of sociological economics.

[JohnR]

For me, the disappointing thing has been the lack of adverts related to the Hobby during this programme. Hornby, at least, has done TV advertising in the past, and it surely would have been a good investment to get your advert in front of your 1.3million target market?

[rue_d_etropal]

For me, the disappointing thing has been the lack of adverts related to the Hobby during this programme. Hornby, at least, has done TV advertising in the past, and it surely would have been a good investment to get your advert in front of your 1.3million target market?

I agree , but it has been suggested cost is an issue. I would have thought that Hornby and Bachmann could have afforded an advert of some sort, but maybe the program should not be seen as being too commercial.

On the subject of getting younger people into the hobby, I think we are aiming far too low. Parents do take their children (and grand children) to exhibitions, but I woud think many lose interest once they get into their teens. I did, but got back into the hobby whilst at uni when I discovered Peter Lindsay's(?) model shop in Exeter. I certainly could not afford to buy new, but the small number of second hand items got me started slowly.

Most clubs can not deal with youngsters, all sorts of hoops to jump through.

The TV program is a good advert for the hobby, but one problem is lack of space in most houses these days. A 10ft by 5ft table is big, too big. We need to be looking at much smaller layout, but not necessarily going down in scale(as someone is bound to suggest). I think that any follow up series does need to look at slightly different challenges. If it is just a different set of teams completing slightly different themes then it will get boring.

Talking of themes, I think what Laurie has done with his SteamPunk theme is more likely to get people into the hobby, than some of the more traditional themes. He regularly gets 'best in show' at exhibitions, and many computer/wargaming themes are fantasy/sci fi related. That is what a large number of 'younger' and some older people are interested in, and the sizes/scales correlate pretty well with model railway scales. Look at what sells better, fantasy/sci fi or reality themed fiction . Ignore them at our peril.

As I was never a train spotter, I don't know if that interst has changed, but suspect it has a lot, and as such we can not depend on that as an entry point for the hobby. Interestingly when Bachmann introduced their mainly American On30 narrow gauge there was a big interest from younger people, and it drew more younger people into the hobby. Possibly old American cowboy films had an influence, but it can't be ignored. I am not sure if there will be as much of a spike in interest with the new OO9 items, but time will tell.

 

Above all we need to be open minded and think creativly. More 'different' layouts in magazines might not be popular with traditional modellers, but they just might appeal to those not currently involved in the hobby. In some ways the TV program has been far too traditional, and that might be OK for a start, but will soon become tired if it is continued.

Edited October 22, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Bonafide]

For me, the disappointing thing has been the lack of adverts related to the Hobby during this programme. Hornby, at least, has done TV advertising in the past, and it surely would have been a good investment to get your advert in front of your 1.3million target market?

 

To ask that question seems to suggest you have experience in the field of advertising. 

 

If so, why do you think Hornby chose not to invest a large sum of money to make an advert, have it screened, and to invest in having items manufactured and in stock ready for anticipated sales?

 

Perhaps what initially appears to be a good investment, might start to look a bit shaky when one considers the financial risk, and Hornby reached a considered decision on that basis.      

[PatB]

I agree , but it has been suggested cost is an issue. I would have thought that Hornby and Bachmann could have afforded an advert of some sort, but maybe the program should not be seen as being too commercial.

On the subject of getting younger people into the hobby, I think we are aiming far too low. Parents do take their children (and grand children) to exhibitions, but I woud think many lose interest once they get into their teens. I did, but got back into the hobby whilst at uni when I discovered Peter Lindsay's(?) model shop in Exeter. I certainly could not afford to buy new, but the small number of second hand items got me started slowly.

Most clubs can not deal with youngsters, all sorts of hoops to jump through.

The TV program is a good advert for the hobby, but one problem is lack of space in most houses these days. A 10ft by 5ft table is big, too big. We need to be looking at much smaller layout, but not necessarily going down in scale(as someone is bound to suggest). I think that any follow up series does need to look at slightly different challenges. If it is just a different set of teams completing slightly different themes then it will get boring.

Talking of themes, I think what Laurie has done with his SteamPunk theme is more likely to get people into the hobby, than some of the more traditional themes. He regularly gets 'best in show' at exhibitions, and many computer/wargaming themes are fantasy/sci fi related. That is what a large number of 'younger' and some older people are interested in, and the sizes/scales correlate pretty well with model railway scales. Look at what sells better, fantasy/sci fi or reality themed fiction . Ignore them at our peril.

As I was never a train spotter, I don't know if that interst has changed, but suspect it has a lot, and as such we can not depend on that as an entry point for the hobby. Interestingly when Bachmann introduced their mainly American On30 narrow gauge there was a big interest from younger people, and it drew more younger people into the hobby. Possibly old American cowboy films had an influence, but it can't be ignored. I am not sure if there will be as much of a spike in interest with the new OO9 items, but time will tell.

 

Above all we need to be open minded and think creativly. More 'different' layouts in magazines might not be popular with traditional modellers, but they just might appeal to those not currently involved in the hobby. In some ways the TV program has been far too traditional, and that might be OK for a start, but will soon become tired if it is continued.

Agree with this and, indeed, composed a lengthy post along similar lines the other day, only for the Huawei goblins to steal it just before I posted.

 

Whilst the fantasy/sci-fi themes aren't really my own thing I can certainly recognise good, imaginative modelling that may well appeal to those outside the "traditional" hobby. After all, if pushing the traditional side of the hobby worked to get new members involved we wouldn't see that hardy perennial, "The Imminent Death of the Hobby" thread anything like as frequently as we do. Railway modelling has gone through periods of rapid change in the past, mostly with positive outcomes. The explosion in 4mm scale in the early post-war era, the rise of the garden gauges in the 80s/90s are two examples. Perhaps we are seeing the beginning of another.

[rue_d_etropal]

To get a better idea of just how popular fantasy/steampunk/wargaming is(and it links well between real modelling and virtual computer gaming), is to either google search on 28mm scale/size or search on ebay. The market is flooded with laser cut kits, and other accessories. It is main reason why one of the scales I model in is 5.5mm/ft which at 1/55 scale is virtiually spot on to 28mm which is now dsaid to be 1/56 scale.

Model railways could get left behind . You say it could miss the train!

Maybe it is time to produce a guide to fantasy /steampunk type model railways in the same way Peco/RM have just produced a guide to O gauge, not forgetiing how virtual model railways will play their part/Lego are already hookking up ith computer game manufacturers.

[Guius]

The old style socio-economic groupings much beloved of advertisers, politicians, planners and marketing wonks.  It has been updated and refined but everyone still uses the old classifications even though they are no longer particularly relevant.

 

ABC1 roughly corresponds to managerial, professionals and clerical, sometimes called "white collar" or if you are a class warrior, "middle class"

C2DE are skilled manual, unskilled manual and thelike, the old fashioned "blue collar" or "working class".

 

Unfortunately the modern economy is far more fine grained than that but the classification is still useful for more "social policy" and "social attitude" rather than as a measure for spending power.  When some train and lorry drivers earn as much as some airline pilots you can see why this blunt tool is no longer appropriate for economic classification.

Quiet true regarding the usefulness of the socio-economic groupings and their associated spending power.

My local North West tv news yesterday reported on a drug dealer ( a mister big ) from Manchester, who had been given a long sentence, a 'proceeds of crime' seizure being part of his punishment.

Police video of the interior of his home showed some of his ill gotten gains which included watches, signed football shirts and a closet containing nothing but snow white (pun intended) trainers.

My point being is that his annual income would, no doubt, put him in the top 5% A B band, yet his total raison d'etre was centred round a few shiny sparkles, 20 pairs of pristine galoshes and a sweaty football shirt or two.

 

Secretly, I was hoping he might have had the odd Matisse or Pre Raphaelite to redeem himself but no, just more sweaty red football shirts in frames.

Such is life.

 

Guy

[Huw Griffiths]

I'm sure you don't seriously expect this "dopey" individual to have any concept of taste whatsoever.

 

Anyway, many thousands of Mancunians will have been convinced from the outset that he was beyond redemption on this "score". If nothing else, all his soccer shirts are the "wrong" colour.

 

Still, I'm sure he'll get plenty of healthy fare in his new home - porridge - turkey (hopefully of the cold variety) - even exercise (an hour a day, in the yard).

 

With any luck, some judge will also sign a "proceeds of crime" sequestration order - so his bank account gets emptied - and his house gets seized and auctioned off (but not before his money gets confiscated and his dap collection gets the boot).

 

In other words, I'd like to think that his ill-gotten gains might actually get used for something that would really benefit the local community - like law enforcement, for instance. (I'm sure running the local drug squad doesn't come cheap.)

 

As you might have gathered, I quite like drug dealers … to spend long periods of time at Her Majesty's pleasure.

 

Enough said, really.

 

 

Huw.

[JohnR]

To ask that question seems to suggest you have experience in the field of advertising. 

 

If so, why do you think Hornby chose not to invest a large sum of money to make an advert, have it screened, and to invest in having items manufactured and in stock ready for anticipated sales?

 

Perhaps what initially appears to be a good investment, might start to look a bit shaky when one considers the financial risk, and Hornby reached a considered decision on that basis.      

 

I have some experience of advertising targeting, although via Facebook, rather than TV. Hornby have, in the recent past, produced TV adverts, which have traditionally aired during childrens TV programmes. I would assume that an advert aired during a railway modelling programme would actually have a greater impact, because you are showing it to people who have ALREADY expressed an interest in your product. As for cost of production, if the worst came to the worst, there is surely nothing stopping them reshowing some of their previous adverts, which were often of a generic nature, rather than advertising a particular set? I seem to recall that it was advertising in the model press that tended to have details of specific products, and I'd imagine they would have to make sure the product was available at the correct time. 

[Pacific231G]

For me, the disappointing thing has been the lack of adverts related to the Hobby during this programme. Hornby, at least, has done TV advertising in the past, and it surely would have been a good investment to get your advert in front of your 1.3million target market?

I'm not so sure. I'm no expert on advertising and marketting (though I have run a couple of campaigns related to TV programmes I've worked on) but I suspect that what adverts from Hornby would hope to achieve would be to make the wider public more generally aware of railway modelling as a possible leisure activity for thesmelves or their kids. This programme is already doing that for them so perhaps adverts within the programme's commercial breaks would be superfluous. If I were them I'd probably be looking to place any TV adverts on other days where the audience following GMRC are likely to be viewing to keep their awareness alive.

 

I guess they might decide that the audience includes enough current rallway modellers to be worth reaching with adverts for model railway products but we already know about Hornby's products. I don't think existing modellers were ever really the target of Hornby's TV adverts which AFAIR were always brand adverts rather than for specific products. You do get adverts for related products where a programme is reaching an already involved audience who are likely to buy related products. Eurosport's coverage of the Tour de France is full of adverts for things like perfomance bikes and timing devices but their advertising rates will be a lot lower than Ch 5's ,  

Edited October 24, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Phil Parker]

TV advertising has got cheaper, but it's still a lot of money. For a start, you have to make the advert, and there are high standards you have to meet for broadcast. Our video team did explain some of it to me and basically, you better have a 4K camera and be able to jump through a load of hoops to ensure the formats match the TV companies requirements. There are plenty of companies that can do this, but they don't come cheap.

 

Then you have to buy the airtime. It used to be £1k a second, but prices for Ch5 will be lower. Not that much lower though. My guess is that Hornby could throw a few hundred thousand pounds at it, but probably don't want a hole that big in their marketing budget at the moment.

[HonestTom]

While we do have to accept that railway modelling is never going to have the amount of interest that it used to, I do think there's more of a potential market than people think.

 

If you look on Instagram, YouTube and the like, you can see that there are a lot of what we might call casual enthusiasts - they're interested in railways, but less on the technical aspects and more on things like the social impact of the railways, the architecture, the way railways fit into their everyday lives. I would recommend Geoff Marshall's videos as a good example of the sort of thing I mean. He's clearly an enthusiast who knows his stuff, but his videos aren't about rivet counting. When I go to museums or heritage railways, I often get friends wanting to come along because they like steam trains - they couldn't tell a Fairlie from a Garratt, but they love the historical atmosphere.

 

There's also an appetite for creativity. Hobbies like wargaming, cosplay, dolls' houses and the like involve the same kind of craftsmanship and attention to detail that model railways have. Again, I find that non-enthusiast friends are often interested in my modelling from an artistic standpoint. I'm not saying that I'm a particularly skilled modeller, just that a lot of people don't realise that building a model railway isn't just about playing trains and that it can be an opportunity for artistic expression. In fact, my current layout project is specifically designed to be something that will appeal to people who aren't necessarily railway enthusiasts.

 

My suggestions for taking advantage of public interest in the hobby would be:

 

1. A good variety of layouts at shows to show how broad this hobby can be. Different scales, sizes and subjects. Have serious, scale layouts, but also include fun layouts. Not necessarily kiddie or fantasy layouts (although by all means include those), but layouts that have a lot of cameos or depict offbeat subjects. Vintage tabletop-style layouts always seem to draw a crowd.

 

2. I agree fully with the concept of having club members on hand who are good at engaging with the public. However, I would add that they need to know the difference between talking to the public and talking at them - taking questions and comments is good, a twenty-minute droning lecture where the visitor can't get a word in edgeways is not.

 

3. A beginners' layout at every exhibition. Something like a micro, on a fairly low budget, demonstrating what's possible without being an expert modeller or wealthy. As far as possible, incorporate different methods that a beginner might use to create their first layout - ready-to-plant buildings, plastic kits (e.g. Wills or Dapol), simple scratchbuilding, even using non-modelling materials. Use cheaper or second hand rolling stock to show that you don't need a lot of money to get started. Lots of captions explaining how everything was done. Maybe make it a shunting puzzle that viewers can operate. Maybe even produce a simple blog or series of videos demonstrating the build that visitors can be directed to. Place it fairly near the front of the exhibition.

Edited October 25, 2018 by HonestTom

[rue_d_etropal]

Programs such as Bakeoff don't necessarily have adverts relevant, but they do have a company sponsored image on screen when it moves from adverts to program and vica-versa. Obviously there is a cost, but it would not cost much to produce the image. Problem in this case, is that Hornby are a relatively small player, it being Peco and Gaugemaster who have the biggest budget for items used, so maybe Peco did not think they could justify the cost. Also the impression given , and felt by some was that it was too comercially orientated, so maybe they pulled back a bit. Pity, as without commercial companies investing money in the hobby(and therfore expecting something back), there would be no hobby as we know it.

 

In many ways the program is just dipping its toes, to see how popular the idea is. Maybe there is an opportunity for us(and I mean the hobby not RMweb), to do something. Bakeoff started as a one-off celebrity program for one of the charity  events. We don't need celebrites(although haing a couple involved might help), but organising a big challenge, which itself does not cost too much, then approach some TV companies to see ifthey are interrested i being inolved. It is not unusual for some exibitions to have a 'challenge', such as the one at Swanley every year. Maybe that could get some TV coverage.

I do have an idea for a challenge, but don't want to talk too much about it at the moment.

[Joseph_Pestell]

As there was nothing else much to watch yesterday evening, I did tune in to GMRC for 30 minutes.

 

Every bit as awful, or indeed worse, than I was expecting. This is no advert at all for the hobby. It will turn far more people away than it encourages.

 

I can not think for the life of me why these people (Steve Flint especially) would want to get involved.

[Robin2]

Every bit as awful, or indeed worse, than I was expecting

What sort of program would have appealed to you?

 

...R

[Joseph_Pestell]

What sort of program would have appealed to you?

 

...R

 

Fair question.

 

One could do a lot worse than follow a similar format to the DVDs that accompany BRM. A mix of reporting on layouts, prototype and "how to" demonstrations.

 

Above all presented by people who seem "normal".

[MarkSG]

Fair question.

 

One could do a lot worse than follow a similar format to the DVDs that accompany BRM. A mix of reporting on layouts, prototype and "how to" demonstrations.

 

Above all presented by people who seem "normal".

 

But then, what would be the point of putting it on TV?

 

The BRM cover DVD is designed to appeal to the sort of people who buy model railway magazines. That is, the likes of you and me. A TV programme has to have a different focus. It has to appeal to people who don't buy modelling magazines.

[Ian Morgan]

Would that appeal to an audience of over a million viewers?

 

There are plenty of videos on YouTube about model railways, and 'how to'  tutorials that struggle to reach 20,000 views over several years. I know, I have uploaded several myself.

[Joseph_Pestell]

But then, what would be the point of putting it on TV?

 

The BRM cover DVD is designed to appeal to the sort of people who buy model railway magazines. That is, the likes of you and me. A TV programme has to have a different focus. It has to appeal to people who don't buy modelling magazines.

 

We might have to ask BRM what their intention is. I suspect that the DVD is not there for "us" but to encourage newbies to buy the magazine.

 

But I accept what you say. I was only commenting about the format of the programme. I  agree that what one chose as subject matter and the script used might not be the same when trying to appeal to 1m+ non-specialist viewers.

 

And of course, the competition element does appeal to viewers. Perhaps they should organise a phone-in vote?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

As there was nothing else much to watch yesterday evening, I did tune in to GMRC for 30 minutes.

 

Every bit as awful, or indeed worse, than I was expecting. This is no advert at all for the hobby. It will turn far more people away than it encourages.

 

I can not think for the life of me why these people (Steve Flint especially) would want to get involved.

 

As others may have said before -  in the nicest possible way, YOU and other 'serious' modellers are NOT the target market.

 

The general public (which IS the target market) seem to like it .

 

Personally I love it - and so does my wife.

 

And non-enthusiasts at work are talking to me about the programme.

 

Job done, I'd suggest.

Edited October 25, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Robin2]

Maybe the question to pose to those who complain about GMRC is this ...

 

Would you prefer to watch GMRC in its present format or no model railway program at all?

 

 

...R