Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[Butler Henderson]

Wonder if something could be applied to weaken the glued joint before attempting removal of the roof.

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

 

I 'improved' the reverser frame by carving notches in it with an exacto knife;

 

..

IMHO The handles of the reversing lever also need to be steel.

[The Johnster]

Already done, sir; grey applied to reverser lever, vacuum brake handle, and regulator handle grips yesterday evening. 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Wonder if something could be applied to weaken the glued joint before attempting removal of the roof.

I doubt it; my knowledge of chemistry is abysmal, but I would have thought that anything that weakened the glue would not be good for the plastic either.  Hornby might be able to advise on this. 

[tomparryharry]

I would suggest that locomotives like this would have cab roofs (rooves?) with a tight sliding fit. Lifting the roof off would be straightforward, and any detailing attended to. 

[Blandford1969]

On 16/12/2020 at 11:43, The Johnster said:

Already done, sir; grey applied to reverser lever, vacuum brake handle, and regulator handle grips yesterday evening. 

Not sure by the vacuum brake handle if you mean the ejector handle to the RHS of the body or the brake handle for applying the brake. They are not steel, but have a wooden handle on both of them. They are awful if the wooden handle ever does come off and you don't want to go far without getting it resolved. 

[The Johnster]

54 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I would suggest that locomotives like this would have cab roofs (rooves?) with a tight sliding fit. Lifting the roof off would be straightforward, and any detailing attended to. 

Good idea.  My suggestion would be to use magnetic strip along the cab side tops.  

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Didn’t some manufacturer do this, magnetic roof retainers?

[Budgie]

On 16/12/2020 at 01:18, The Johnster said:

 the sunflower is probably beyond my ability! 

 

Can't you get a transfer for this?

[The Johnster]

11 minutes ago, Budgie said:

 

Can't you get a transfer for this?

Not that I'm aware of, nor for the printing on the gauges either, and if I could I'd be hard pushed to apply anything that small!

[outatime]

Here is my take on 4144, but in the preservation livery like most of my 00 locos.

As the base-model was in Great Western lettering livery, i had to add the bunker steps and the upper handrails.

After fitting some decals and numberplates from Fox, it now looks like this:

[The Johnster]

Very nice; this is one of my favourite liveries.  Not sure that 4144 would have carried it in service, though.  The locos was built in 1946 and would have entered traffic in the unlined 1945-7 green G W R initials livery, and probably been repainted in the mid 50s in unlined BR unicycling lion black with black number plate 'fields'; at least, that is what I have assumed for my 4144, allox Tondu Sept. 1958.  The Egyptian Serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' livery was Swindon's interpretation of the 1/1/48 instruction to continue with the previous liveries but indentify the locomotive as belonging to BR, that is, your previous company livery and lettering but with no suggestion that ownership was other than BR.  This instruction was superseded on 1/6/48 by the new standard liveries, and 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in the standard Gill Sans.  The unicycling lion became available at the end of March 1949.

 

It seems unlikely that 4144, less than 2 years in service, would have been given an overhaul that included a repaint during the first 6 months of 1948.  Someone will now refer me to millions of photos showing that it did in fact carry this livery.  I would like to see a photo of it during it's Tondu allocation, but this is not likely to materialise.  It is conceivable that it was carrying BR lined green post 1956 livery with a unicycling lion, and I would not mind representing this!

 

There is a Mike Morant photo of 4144 in unlined BR black ex-works, in 1963 IIRC, which does not tally with my memories of the loco in it's final years at STJ, which insist that she was in scruffy but visible BR lined green with a ferret and dartboard totem, but I would assume that the photo is correct and my memory wrong.  I think I'm on fairly safe ground with unlined black unicycling lion blue C below number plate for it as a Tondu loco in late '58, but am happy to repaint if better information proves me 'differently correct'.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Very nice; this is one of my favourite liveries.  Not sure that 4144 would have carried it in service, though.  The locos was built in 1946 and would have entered traffic in the unlined 1945-7 green G W R initials livery, and probably been repainted in the mid 50s in unlined BR unicycling lion black with black number plate 'fields'; at least, that is what I have assumed for my 4144, allox Tondu Sept. 1958.  The Egyptian Serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' livery was Swindon's interpretation of the 1/1/48 instruction to continue with the previous liveries but indentify the locomotive as belonging to BR, that is, your previous company livery and lettering but with no suggestion that ownership was other than BR.  This instruction was superseded on 1/6/48 by the new standard liveries, and 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in the standard Gill Sans.  The unicycling lion became available at the end of March 1949.

 

It seems unlikely that 4144, less than 2 years in service, would have been given an overhaul that included a repaint during the first 6 months of 1948.  Someone will now refer me to millions of photos showing that it did in fact carry this livery.  I would like to see a photo of it during it's Tondu allocation, but this is not likely to materialise.  It is conceivable that it was carrying BR lined green post 1956 livery with a unicycling lion, and I would not mind representing this!

 

There is a Mike Morant photo of 4144 in unlined BR black ex-works, in 1963 IIRC, which does not tally with my memories of the loco in it's final years at STJ, which insist that she was in scruffy but visible BR lined green with a ferret and dartboard totem, but I would assume that the photo is correct and my memory wrong.  I think I'm on fairly safe ground with unlined black unicycling lion blue C below number plate for it as a Tondu loco in late '58, but am happy to repaint if better information proves me 'differently correct'.

 

11 hours ago, outatime said:

Here is my take on 4144, but in the preservation livery like most of my 00 locos.

Didn't you read the post you were replying to?

[The Johnster]

Yes but it does not state that the preservation livery was not carried in normal service by this loco.  It was carried by 4162, delivered new to Barry in early 1948 with it, and possibly one or two others, but 4144 is unlikely.  Of course, those who own preserved locomotives are completely at liberty to paint them any livery they like...

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Yes but it does not state that the preservation livery was not carried in normal service by this loco.

It doesn't state that it was, either.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

It doesn't state that it was, either.

And the GWS will be among the first to tell you that it wasn't (on this particular engine).

[melmerby]

If you look at the statss, the chance of 4144 receiving "BRITISH RAILWAYS" green are infinitesimal small.

It was only built in Sept 1946 so was virtually brand new in "GWR" green.

The "BRITISH RAILWAYS" green only lasted for a very short period and would have only been applied to brand new locos from Jan 48 or those having a major overhaul needing a full repaint.

4144 doesn't fall into those criteria.

IIRC 4160 which was new in 48 did get the livery.

[outatime]

Sorry for the confusion, i did expect that the loco never carried this livery while still in regular service.

However, i chose the preserved Locomotive as a prototype because i simply model the locomotives as i have seen them during my holidays in the uk, which will hopefully be possible again next year. At some time, there may be a thread around here with all my preserved locos.

Kind Regards,

Björn

[PMP]

The only confusion was from someone not reading your post. The steps color looks a very close match if you didn’t respray the model, may I ask which paint you used?

[tomparryharry]

55 minutes ago, outatime said:

Sorry for the confusion, i did expect that the loco never carried this livery while still in regular service.

However, i chose the preserved Locomotive as a prototype because i simply model the locomotives as i have seen them during my holidays in the uk, which will hopefully be possible again next year. At some time, there may be a thread around here with all my preserved locos.

Kind Regards,

Björn

 

Hello Bjorn, it looks good from here. Considering that Hornby scanned the loco themselves, everyone would expect it turn out as you have depicted. There was some confusion with how locomotives were painted immediately after nationalisation, with contradictory instructions going everywhere. As a museum, Didcot  will provide a 'snapshot' example of how a Western locomotive would have looked at that period; in this case, 4144. 

 

Looks good, carry on!

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[outatime]

I try to use RAL tones wherever possible, because it is difficult for me to obtain UK colors as they won't be sent to germany anymore due to Royal Mail regulations.

For this loco i was using RAL 6007 Bottle green which is a really good match, only very slightly darker as the Hornby green.

I was using an airbrush to paint the steps and blended them in. I also painted the cab shutter with that colour because after removing the route availability disc i ended up with a little black spot. The Hornby paint appears to be applied in a very thin coat.

Here's a link to the exact paint i was using, which one possibly can't get in the uk:

https://shop.elita.de/epages/ElitaModelleShop.sf/de_DE/?ObjectID=4408414

 

Kind Regards,

Björn

[adb968008]

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

Very good shot for bunker rear and cab rear detail. 

 

I don't think there was total confusion re liveries in the first 6 months of 1948, not so far as locos were concerened anyway.  The relevant dates are 1/1/48 to 31/5/48, during which time WR locos painted at Swindon or Caerphilly recieved the unlined green Egyptian Serif 1920s GW style BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering as the GWS have applied to 4144.  Some locos may have been painted in the austerity black at this time as well, but would carried the  Egyptian Serfif lettering.  When you come down the food chain to suburban coaches and auto trailers, matters become a little less clear cut, and various hybrid liveries showed up, with different styles for lettering and numbering.  Don't investigate what was happening with goods and mineral wagons, your brain will fry...

 

Things became more ordered everywhere after 1/6/48, as from that date the new BR standard liveries were to be applied, and the lettering/numbering became established as BR's adopted standard Gill Sans.  Things were still pretty confused at the lower links of the chain, and the WR painted auto trailers in crimson and cream, which was not in line with Riddles' instructions, for 2 years or so; in fact, the practice was apparently not stopped until Riddles observed one at Paddington one day and wrote a strongly worded letter to the WR about it along the lines of 'what is my best main line livery doing on a lowly auto trailer?'.  We were still in the world of anything goes for wagons; the country was still struggling with austerity and paint was difficult to obtain.  Unfitted wooden minerals (there were no new ones being built at this time) and unfitted wooden opens, even new builds, were not painted at all during this period and well into the 50s.

 

There is a photo (in Eric Mountford's 'Caerphilly Works' book IIRC but my copy disappeared in a move years ago so I can't check) of 4162 in the Egyptian Serif BR livery as delivered new to Barry in early 1948, so we know that this loco and 4160 definitely carried this livery when new, making 4161 a strong candidate as well. 

 

Post 1/6/48, some 5101s may have carried lined black BR mixed traffic livery, but I would suggest not painting one in such a livery without well provenanced photographic evidence.  In the 6/48 to 1956 period the huge majority were painted black, usually but not exclusively with polished copper and brass work.  I have so far been unable to pin down the start and end of the practice of painting number plates with red background 'fields'; I believe, but an unwilling to claim it as an undistputable fact, that this commenced with the 31/5/48 'Riddles standard BR liveries' instruction, as this demanded that the background to nameplates should be red, and that Swindon and Caerphilly followed suit for number plates.  Prior to this date the numbering system had not yet been determined and it had not yet been confirmed that ex-GW locos were to keep their number plates.  Problem is that the red fields could be and were probably applied at sheds at indeterminate dates and to locos not neccessarily newly repainted, and the same could apply to the repainting of them in black at some time in the 50s.

 

This sort of thing is one of the reasons I have chosen the 1948-58 period for my layout, but verified information is not always easy to come by.  Cwmdimbath's locos are various Tondu residents from this period, 4144 coming to the shed in the autumn of 1958 and just scraping in.  I also have 4145, as delivered new to the shed in 1946 in unlined green 1945-7 G W R initials livery, an old Airfix chassis with a later Hornby tooled body, another scraper inner which was xferred away 31/3/48. 

 

I try to get my locos in the correct liveries, and despite Tondu's low profile off the beaten track state this has been possible with several locos, but some have had to be best guess.  I finish such locos in what I think is the most likely livery, unlined black with polished brightwork for 4144, but will happily repaint and alter locos if better information comes to light; this is the best I feel I can do in the circumstances.  So, both of my 4575s are in unlined black livery, as they were converted to auto fitted locos in 1953 and would have been repainted in the current livery at that time.  One of them, 5555, has been confirmed from photographic evidence at Abergwynfi, but the other, 5524, is a best guess.  I have left the brass visible on the safety valve covers  of these locos; 5555 certainly had a polished one and, assuming this was Swindon practice in 1953 for these conversion locos, 5524 probably had one as well. 

 

If a loco was delivered new to Tondu during or a few years before my period, I can surmise  it's livery with a more or less 100% chance of being correct; 4145, 9642, 6762, the 4575s, 8448, are all in this category, but I may be adrift in terms of number plate field and polished brass/copperwork on some.  I have seen photographic confirmation of 2761, 5756, 5707, and 4218.  My 3 56xx are guesstimations, and I have one in unlined green Egyptian BR, one in plain black Gill Sans BR, both with red field plates and brightwork painted over, and one in plain black unicyling lion BR with polished brightwork, albeit weathered.  Tondu's 56xx seem to be camera shy for this period.

 

4557 is another guesstimate, in BR lined black livery.  I've seen photos of this loco shortly after transfer from Tondu to Whitland in this livery, so have taken a punt on it.  She is a bit of a mystery, as I cannot see Tondu's requirement for a non-auto fitted small prairie post 1953, or for that matter for a brand new 6750 pannier with no vacuum brakes at any time; 6762 was eventually transferred to Swansea East Dock, a much more probable domicile for her.  These steam brake only panniers had vertically jointed coupling rods to cope with sharp curvature in dock shunting, which may be a clue but the shed had no similar compatible loco previously.  As far as I can tell, she was a replacement for 1854 pannier no,1740, another 'scraper inner' and on the to do list.  In lieu of better information, 1740 may have a 57xx type cab, making her suitably different from 2761...

 

Another pitfall is top feeds on panniers.  I know that my 57xx, 5707 without and 5756 with, are correct and assume that my 2 8750s in service, 9642 and 6762, delivered new 1945 and 1949 respectivly, have new top feed boilers.  I've given both these locos red field number plates, but have recently confirmed that 3790 was at Tondu in the 50s with no top feed, and may well buy a third 8750 or convert 9642 to represent this, with black field plates.  I love the variety offered by this early BR period!

 

My take on finishing locos in livery variations you are not 100% sure of is that it is better to finish the loco and use it on the layout, and to tell everyone you have done so, as this at least opens the possibility of someone pointing out your mistake and your being able to correct it.  This is a working layout, which I regard as a small railway not a model, providing a real service to a real mining village that never existed, only small and in the 1950s.  Some rolling stock is definitely wrong, but will do until I can replace it with kits, and similar punts are taken on liveries with it.  I have included 1942-5 austerity brown, 1945-7 GW choc/cream, early 1948 BR choc/cream, late '48-56 carmine/cream, 1956 unlined maroon, and one interloper BR BG in lined 1958 maroon, but the majority of passenegr and NPCCS is in unlined carmine, which is I feel the most representative livery of the period.  Freight stock is largely in BR liveries, but there are examples of late big 4 as well as XPOs with P numbers, and a heavily weathered Siphon in pre 1934 GW livery, along with a workman's miner's clerestory in shirtbutton.  All big 4 liveries are represented.

[MatthewCarty]

Two new versions announced by Hornby yesterday, 6147 unlined black with late crest (R3850), and 5189 lined green with small early emblem (R3851). The cynic in me wonders whether these two coming so soon after the first batch has something to do with the Dapol version, but either way I will probably look to get one of these.

 

I'm hoping someone here may be able to help fill in some of the information as to what time periods these two locos will satisfy.

I have a couple of picture 6147 having been outshopped in green in April 64, and with withdrawal in December 65 Hornby's model must depict it prior to this works visit. So does anyone have any idea when it might have gained the late crest?

 

5189 was withdrawn August 59 so might not have got the late crest at all, but I'm struggling to find any picture of 5189 so would appreciate any knowledge on this one too!

 

[Miss Prism]

Re 5189, large Prairies usually had large crests, not small ones. There is a small window at the end of February 1957 where an early crest could have been applied to a lined loco, but I have not seen any photographic evidence of it. It is also possible that Hornby's artwork doesn't represent what is being sold. I suggest you challenge Hornby.