County of Yorkshire Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 A fantastic announcement, and Hornby deserve to have these sell in droves. It's only taken since - what - the 1970's release of the Mainline B-set for GWR modellers to have true RTR non-corridor stock to 21st standards (post-war Bachmann autocoach not withstanding)? I am at work and away from my books but I am eager to know - was there an all third diagram built in similar style and length to this C and BT? Seems odd for Hornby to exclude this if so. In fact, these look so good I may have to reconsider my eventual choice of prototype modelling location - cue Birmingham or London metroland... did these ever get deployed in the Bristol area? All we need from the Bachmann/Dapol/Oxford Rail/Hattons/Rails 2019 announcements is a GWR BG, diner, and siphon and we disciples of Swindon will be on Cloud 9. CoY 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 One or two 5 car sets for my proposed valleys workings, plus a nice Taff vale A class (or 4) lurking in the background.... Getting all wibbly-wobbly now.... Ian. Me too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) I am at work and away from my books but I am eager to know - was there an all third diagram built in similar style and length to this C and BT? Seems odd for Hornby to exclude this if so. The compo in the 4-coach sets had the first-class compartments at one end of the coach, whereas that in the 5-coach sets had them in the middle. The coaches in these sets are D98 brakes and E131 compos. The 57' coaches in the Cardiff sets were D101 brakes, C56 thirds (later seconds) and E134 firsts. More information in Great Western Journal, No.5. Edited January 7, 2019 by Budgie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2019 Nice to see the GWR Large Prairie and the 57' bow-ended suburban coaches. I just need to research to see if the coaches are appropriate for the Moretonhampstead Branch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris45lsw Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 The compo in the 4-coach sets had the first-class compartments at one end of the coach, whereas that in the 5-coach sets had them in the middle. The coaches in these sets are D98 brakes and E131 compos. The 57' coaches in the Cardiff sets were D101 brakes, C56 thirds (later seconds) and E134 firsts. More information in Great Western Journal, No.5. And the C56 third is on a 55ft 6in underframe as opposed to 57ft so Hornby couldn't do it without producing a new underframe. Chris KT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 These look fantastic. I believe the last BR trains on the Moretonhampstead branch involved GWR non corridor stock, were they of this type? My coaching stock knowledge was saturated with southern things before my interest in the western flourished... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Can anyone confirm are the BR versions in crimson or maroon livery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 These look fantastic. I believe the last BR trains on the Moretonhampstead branch involved GWR non corridor stock, were they of this type? My coaching stock knowledge was saturated with southern things before my interest in the western flourished... No. Three sets were involved on that sad day. One comprised Hawksworth E167 BC 6276, long BR standard second 46041 and Hawksworth C83 second 1841. Another was formed of Hawksworth D132 brake second 417, Hawksworth C83 second 2706 and Hawksworth E167 brake composite 7393. A third was made up of Collett E147 brake composite 6837, Hawksworth C83 third 2642 and Collett C66 second 4289, later augmented by Hawksworth E167 brake composite 7087 and Hawksworth C82 corridor second 831. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Nice to see the GWR Large Prairie and the 57' bow-ended suburban coaches. I just need to research to see if the coaches are appropriate for the Moretonhampstead Branch. I have more than a passing interest in that branch. The late R P Walford, a coaching stock expert who lived at Bovey Tracey, published many observations in the Railway Observer over the years but appears to have recorded no examples of E131 and D98. This is of course not to say that no examples ever apppeared. If any were sent to Newton Abbot for works attention it may be that they were sent up the branch after outshopping but I think we are clutching at straws. Chris 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 A fantastic announcement, and Hornby deserve to have these sell in droves. It's only taken since - what - the 1970's release of the Mainline B-set for GWR modellers to have true RTR non-corridor stock to 21st standards (post-war Bachmann autocoach not withstanding)? I am at work and away from my books but I am eager to know - was there an all third diagram built in similar style and length to this C and BT? Seems odd for Hornby to exclude this if so. In fact, these look so good I may have to reconsider my eventual choice of prototype modelling location - cue Birmingham or London metroland... did these ever get deployed in the Bristol area? All we need from the Bachmann/Dapol/Oxford Rail/Hattons/Rails 2019 announcements is a GWR BG, diner, and siphon and we disciples of Swindon will be on Cloud 9. CoY There were bow-ended thirds to diagram C56 which worked with two D101 brake thirds and one E134 composite in five coach sets. Bristol was not noted for four coach sets formed BT-C-C-BT or five coach sets formed BT-T-C-T-BT. It did have the Avonmouth sets though, formed during the war from two BCs flanking a varying number of thirds, which died out with the arrival of the dmus in 1958 Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2019 I have more than a passing interest in that branch. The late R P Walford, a coaching stock expert who lived at Bovey Tracey, published many observations in the Railway Observer over the years but appears to have recorded no examples of E131 and D98. This is of course not to say that no examples ever apppeared. If any were sent to Newton Abbot for works attention it may be that they were sent up the branch after outshopping but I think we are clutching at straws. Chris Hello Chris, Thank you for your informative reply. So it doesn't look as though I will be purchasing any of the new Hornby Coaches although having Newton Abbott Works nearby does allow a little of "modellers licence". Anyway I have several Auto Trailers that I can use with a variety of locomotives, just need to look for some appropriate Coaches for the new Hornby Prairie to haul back and forth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 Can anyone confirm are the BR versions in crimson or maroon livery? Rails are calling them era 4 if that helps. There's also a nice interior photo of the D98 in Russell's volume 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 One or two 5 car sets for my proposed valleys workings, plus a nice Taff vale A class (or 4) lurking in the background.... Getting all wibbly-wobbly now.... Ian. Remind me of your chosen period. Prior to the interval service introduced in September 1953 the Valleys used a mixture of four- and five-coach sets, including one of the D98/E131 sets originally allocated to London and some other sets assembled from stock built for general service. In 1953 the so-called standard five coach sets were assembled from these and other coaches. How I wish that there was a record of their composition. Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I wonder whether or not any found their way onto Valleys workings .I know that bow ended stock did but trains ran in 5/6 coach sets,some with Hawksworth and other Collett stock. One of the London sets was sent to South Wales during the war. It may have been reformed when it got there. The "standard" five coach sets assembled in 1953 for the interval service comprised a right old mixture of stock. Chris 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Chris Would they have been used for locals around Oxford and northward toward Banbury, Leamington etc?. Based on the coaching info I have only a couple of services between Oxford and Banbury were of non-corridor stock but nonetheless a hole in my collection to fill, either instead or or supplemented by Comet sides and bits for other Collett ones or my 3d printign bodging for Toplights and maybe earlier non-corridor stuff. Thanks Jon Jon Some London sets worked beyond Oxford to Banbury and beyond but whether any Birmingham sets worked south of Oxford I am afraid I do not know. In any case, be careful of your period. From 1940 onwards the London sets were gradually reformed as five coach sets, known as Q sets, and from 1952 or thereabouts the Birmingham division moved to E sets, formed third, brake third, composite. Often these were made by diividing a four coach set into two and adding a third of a different type. Chris Chris Would they have been used for locals around Oxford and northward toward Banbury, Leamington etc?. Based on the coaching info I have only a couple of services between Oxford and Banbury were of non-corridor stock but nonetheless a hole in my collection to fill, either instead or or supplemented by Comet sides and bits for other Collett ones or my 3d printign bodging for Toplights and maybe earlier non-corridor stuff. Thanks Jon Jon Some London sets worked beyond Oxford to Banbury and beyond but whether any Birmingham sets worked south of Oxford I am afraid I do not know. In any case, be careful of your period. From 1940 onwards the London sets were gradually reformed as five coach sets, known as Q sets, and from 1952 or thereabouts the Birmingham division moved to E sets, formed third, brake third, composite. Often these were made by diividing a four coach set into two and adding a third of a different type. Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) Hello Chris, Thank you for your informative reply. So it doesn't look as though I will be purchasing any of the new Hornby Coaches although having Newton Abbott Works nearby does allow a little of "modellers licence". Anyway I have several Auto Trailers that I can use with a variety of locomotives, just need to look for some appropriate Coaches for the new Hornby Prairie to haul back and forth. David Look no further than your trailers. On several occasions in the 1950s there was a shortage of auto fitted locos and no alternative but to send a large Prairie to Moretonhampstead with one or two trailers. At other times there was an abundance of auto fitted tanks but no trailers! Chris EDIT: Blimey, I don't think I have made so many posts in one thread on one day. Enough. I want my lunch! Edited January 7, 2019 by chrisf 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 I'm rather hoping I can use the composites in other services [West Country perhaps] after they were cascaded through the system. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Rails are calling them era 4 if that helps. There's also a nice interior photo of the D98 in Russell's volume 2. So according to Hornby's website era four is early BR. So "crimson" then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) Birmingham standard suburban sets in the early 1950s prior to the introduction of DMUs were 'A' Set - Van Third / Compo / Compo / Van Third (70 ft Toplight stock with 9ft American bogies) - 4 sets numbered 5,6,7 & 8. I believe these were the only 70ft Non-corridor coaches built for the UK. Coach numbers were D55 Brake Third 1070 - 1077 and E97 Compo 6863 - 6870. Built 1913 condemned 1955-7. 'B' Set - Van Third / Compo / Compo / Van Third - 48 sets 'C' Set - Van Third / Third / Compo / Third / Van Third - 3 sets. These had a Compo with 5 First Class compartments in the centre. 'D' Set - Brake Compo / Brake Compo - 4 sets. I don't have numbers and diagrams of the other individual formations. Some four-coach workings were later reduced to three coaches. There are photos c1957 of trains comprising Second / Van Second / Compo with a mix of Bow-end, Flat-end and BR Mk1 stock. (EDIT - beaten to it by Chrisf above, these were designated 'E' Sets.) All very confusing if you want to model in my period of 1957 - 62. Edited January 7, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 I'm rather hoping I can use the composites in other services [West Country perhaps] after they were cascaded through the system. Would certainly be interested to hear if anything turns up, given the lack of non corridor through services in the carriage working books. I don't know how many were in use in the Plymouth or Exeter areas that could have been cobbled together at the last minute to replace an M Set. Or to strengthen the branch services during the summer.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 Would certainly be interested to hear if anything turns up, given the lack of non corridor through services in the carriage working books. I don't know how many were in use in the Plymouth or Exeter areas that could have been cobbled together at the last minute to replace an M Set. Or to strengthen the branch services during the summer.... I've so far found a E set formed of 3rd / brake 3rd/ composite but don't know if they were non corridor. Meanwhile I've found this cracking photo from the Midlands. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwe1366.htm 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 These were the coaches of childhood.In the late 40’s in chocolate & cream (By then fairly grubby) on trips to Cardiff via Abercynon.Later in maroon with ex TVR A ,56XX,41/51XX then Standard 82XXX..Bring on a great nostalgia wallow,complete with horsehair seats and lean-out-of-the-window smuts in the eye as you ran into Cardiff General over the main line to spot what was at Platform 2 on its way to exotic places like Paddington or Bristol. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 What locos, if any, other than large prairies were used to haul these 4 coach sets? I am most interested in Chester 1947 Regards from Vancouver John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 Remind me of your chosen period. Prior to the interval service introduced in September 1953 the Valleys used a mixture of four- and five-coach sets, including one of the D98/E131 sets originally allocated to London and some other sets assembled from stock built for general service. In 1953 the so-called standard five coach sets were assembled from these and other coaches. How I wish that there was a record of their composition. Chris Hello Chris, thanks for the post. I'm not stuck to any fixed time or place, just indicative of the periods 1925-55. I know that's a big gap, but I can't really justify a calendar sized period. Anything I do or make will only be a pastiche of things I've seen from a distance. Plus, of course, the relics of a bygone age. I do know that to do anything justice, I'll need to knock down the houses either side of me. I might be happy; the neighbours not so.... Cheers, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Looking at the new Longworth book, the ones Hornby are doing with BR numbers had all gone by the end of 1960 and a couple were withdrawn in 1957. Two, 5507 and 5508 are shown with M prefixes to their numbers, suggesting reallocation to the LMR, and that would have been before the ex-GWR lines in the West Midlands and mid-Wales transferred. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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