BR Bauxite "early" and "late"

[spikey]

Given that in real life you'd be lucky to ever see two wagons exactly the same brown once they'd been in traffic for a few months, I'm obviously missing some point that's apparent enough to Bachmann for them to produce some wagons in both "BR Bauxite (Early)" and "BR Bauxite (Late)" variants.

 

Does anybody know what Bachmann reckon is the date for the change from one brown to t'other?  And are there any other differences 'twixt "early" and "late" versions of the same wagon apart from colour and running number?

 

[asmay2002]

Given that in real life you'd be lucky to ever see two wagons exactly the same brown once they'd been in traffic for a few months, I'm obviously missing some point that's apparent enough to Bachmann for them to produce some wagons in both "BR Bauxite (Early)" and "BR Bauxite (Late)" variants.

 

Does anybody know what Bachmann reckon is the date for the change from one brown to t'other?  And are there any other differences 'twixt "early" and "late" versions of the same wagon apart from colour and running number?

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/search/bauxite

[Steamport Southport]

It was also the time they started putting the numbers and other information in panels. Not quite the TOPS panel but getting close.

 

From this

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/337600/Bachmann_Branchline_38_382_12_Ton_Ventilated_Fruit_Van_Corrugated_Ends_BR_Bauxite_Early_/StockDetail.aspx

 

To this

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/337599/Bachmann_Branchline_38_381A_12_Ton_Ventilated_Van_Corrugated_Ends_BR_Bauxite_Late_/StockDetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

[hmrspaul]

The box livery is 1963, a couple of years before the corporate image and a long time before TOPS!

 

None of them 'capture' the orange of early BR freight stock red (it contained Larne Quality bauxite as well as other ingredients). BR didn't use the name bauxite in official livery documents.

 

Paul

Edited December 26, 2018 by hmrspaul

[spikey]

Thank you gentlemen.  Every day's a school day here for sure

Edited December 27, 2018 by spikey

[The Bigbee Line]

The box livery is 1963, a couple of years before the corporate image and a long time before TOPS!

 

None of them 'capture' the orange of early BR freight stock red (it contained Larne Quality bauxite as well as other ingredients). BR didn't use the name bauxite in official livery documents.

 

Paul

Paul,

 

I thought you had typed 'Lame' and that it was some reference to the shortage of quality materials in Post War Britain.  Looking more closely I saw it was 'L a r n e'.

 

Then a look on the internet and my knowledge of the Aluminium industry and its noxious by-product increased many fold.  An interesting website was found https://nir.org.uk/breakvan/bauxite the Northamptonshire Ironstone Railway Trust website is most interesting.

 

It gives the recipe for Bauxite Paint

 

Mixture 2 - Bauxite Paint (Undercoat)

Boiled Linseed Oil                    8lb

White Spirit                          6-10lb

Liquid drier                            2-4lb

Bauxite Residue in Oil            82lb

 

Mixture 2A Bauxite Paint (2nd Coat)

Mixture No.2                        100lb

Black in Oil                               6lb

 

Mixture 2B Bauxite Paint (Finishing Coat)

Mixture No.2A                         90lb

Mixing Varnish                         10lb

 

I suspect that each workshop had its own recipe book and source of ingredients.

 

I wonder what gave the early fitted B.R. wagons that orangy look.  I did wonder if it was the result of early colour emulsions, but all the other colours seem OK.  I might try a mix to represent that effect, maybe some added matt red.  Any ideas?

Edited December 28, 2018 by The Bigbee Line

[The Johnster]

Unfitted wagons were 50 shades of grey, if they were painted at all, and fitted ones 50 shades of bauxite, in the early days.  The paint mix was probably a standard specification but the austerity economy was still very much in force in the late 40s and early 50s, and the situation on the ground was probably that the paint shops used what they could get hold of to try to meet the specs as best they could.  The colour was not officially called bauxite, though I believe the LMS and LNER, which had standardised freight liveries between them just before the war, did call it that; it was 'brown' under BR.

 

The colour also varies according to the surface that it is painted on to, with it looking different on wood and on steel bodies, which may or may not have been properly primed; the supply of primer was unreliable in those days and I know of at least one ship which was painted without it, it's life being shortened as a result.  Factor in that some wagons weathered differently due to use (a circuit vanfit in the cement trade would look very different to most pool examples) and a precise pinning down of the colour in an objective and definitive way is not as easy as it looks!

 

it is difficult for those of us who grew up in the post-austerity economy, which is most of us (I'm 67 and don't really remember it) to realise that there were shortages of just about everything at the same time as manufacturing was running full tilt producing goods for export to try and get the balance of payments under control, while the economy was hobbled by the 'lease lend' debt to the Americans.  We were struggling to hold on to an empire and maintain a nuclear defence as well, and the strain was visible and a factor in every part of everyday life; railway wagons were a low priority for the limited resources of raw materials available.

[hmrspaul]

I suspect that each workshop had its own recipe book and source of ingredients.

 

I wonder what gave the early fitted B.R. wagons that orangy look.  I did wonder if it was the result of early colour emulsions, but all the other colours seem OK.  I might try a mix to represent that effect, maybe some added matt red.  Any ideas?

 

No it definately existed. I was with my measuring group one day when we saw a very weathered early BR standard van which was showing a very clear orange freight stock red

 

 

 did call it that; it was 'brown' under BR.

 

BR called it Freight stock red, from early in Nationalisation until quite recently. Only the colour altered!

 

By 1959 they were specifying 3 different paints according to means of application.  All too complex!  And colour doesn't scale.

 

Paul

 

Paul

[The Johnster]

I stand corrected, Paul!  

[jwealleans]

...the LMS and LNER, which had standardised freight liveries between them just before the war,

Can you give any evidence for that? As far as I can recall, lettering sizes and layout were agreed by the RCH for all railways, while stock was painted differently: all LMS freight stock was brown, while the LNER painted fitted stock and brake vans brown and unfitted stock grey.

[hmrspaul]

Can you give any evidence for that? As far as I can recall, lettering sizes and layout were agreed by the RCH for all railways, while stock was painted differently: all LMS freight stock was brown, while the LNER painted fitted stock and brake vans brown and unfitted stock grey.

... and the appropriate minutes of the BR Freight stock rolling stock committee 10 March 1948 no. 198 when recommending to use FSR for fitted/piped wagons and FSG for unfitted quoted the LNER experience of painting unfitted wagons grey and wagons fitted with vacuum brake or pipe distinguished by being painted red as useful and how the LMS had complicated the situation from 1935 painting both fitted and unfitted a brick brown colour which conflicted with the L&NE practice. They also mention the LMS indicating fitted stock by means of a white cross.

 

They go on to mention the complication of obtaining paint and in 1941 it was decided all L&NE should be painted with Bauxite (natural red colour). Later, owing to shortage of paint, many open wagons were put into traffic unpainted except for the left hand quarter boards on which the owner and number were shown.

 

After more commentary it was RECOMMENDED (a) unfitted stock be painted grey   (b) stock fitted with vacuum brake or pipe be painted red

 

They then go on to discuss Insulated stock, departmental vehicles and internal users.

 

 

Paul

Edited December 30, 2018 by hmrspaul

[Pint of Adnams]

Paul,

 

I thought you had typed 'Lame' and that it was some reference to the shortage of quality materials in Post War Britain.  Looking more closely I saw it was 'L a r n e'.

 

Then a look on the internet and my knowledge of the Aluminium industry and its noxious by-product increased many fold.  An interesting website was found https://nir.org.uk/breakvan/bauxite the Northamptonshire Ironstone Railway Trust website is most interesting.

 

It gives the recipe for Bauxite Paint

 

Mixture 2 - Bauxite Paint (Undercoat)

Boiled Linseed Oil                    8lb

White Spirit                          6-10lb

Liquid drier                            2-4lb

Bauxite Residue in Oil            82lb

 

Mixture 2A Bauxite Paint (2nd Coat)

Mixture No.2                        100lb

Black in Oil                               6lb

 

Mixture 2B Bauxite Paint (Finishing Coat)

Mixture No.2A                         90lb

Mixing Varnish                         10lb

 

I suspect that each workshop had its own recipe book and source of ingredients.

 

I wonder what gave the early fitted B.R. wagons that orangy look.  I did wonder if it was the result of early colour emulsions, but all the other colours seem OK.  I might try a mix to represent that effect, maybe some added matt red.  Any ideas?

Could the clue be in Bauxite Residue? That must be a variable according to the original quarry, length of post-processed storage in heaps and hence exposure to weathering, etc. Would there be chemical components or variations in composition that might react differently with the other constituents of the paint mix?

[The Johnster]

... and the appropriate minutes of the BR Freight stock rolling stock committee 10 March 1948 no. 198 when recommending to use FSR for fitted/piped wagons and FSG for unfitted quoted the LNER experience of painting unfitted wagons grey and wagons fitted with vacuum brake or pipe distinguished by being painted red as useful and how the LMS had complicated the situation from 1935 painting both fitted and unfitted a brick brown colour which conflicted with the L&NE practice. They also mention the LMS indicating fitted stock by means of a white cross.

 

They go on to mention the complication of obtaining paint and in 1941 it was decided all L&NE should be painted with Bauxite (natural red colour). Later, owing to shortage of paint, many open wagons were put into traffic unpainted except for the left hand quarter boards on which the owner and number were shown.

 

After more commentary it was RECOMMENDED (a) unfitted stock be painted grey   (b) stock fitted with vacuum brake or pipe be painted red

 

They then go on to discuss Insulated stock, departmental vehicles and internal users.

 

 

Paul

 

Corrected again; thanks Paul!

[57xx]

I thought you had typed 'Lame' and that it was some reference to the shortage of quality materials in Post War Britain.  Looking more closely I saw it was 'L a r n e'.

 

Then a look on the internet and my knowledge of the Aluminium industry and its noxious by-product increased many fold.  An interesting website was found https://nir.org.uk/breakvan/bauxite the Northamptonshire Ironstone Railway Trust website is most interesting.

 

It gives the recipe for Bauxite Paint

 

Mixture 2 - Bauxite Paint (Undercoat)

Boiled Linseed Oil                    8lb

White Spirit                          6-10lb

Liquid drier                            2-4lb

Bauxite Residue in Oil            82lb

 

Mixture 2A Bauxite Paint (2nd Coat)

Mixture No.2                        100lb

Black in Oil                               6lb

 

Mixture 2B Bauxite Paint (Finishing Coat)

Mixture No.2A                         90lb

Mixing Varnish                         10lb

Those specs are specifically for LMS, not BR Bauxite. They are from the LMS 1935 painting schedule.

 

I suspect that each workshop had its own recipe book and source of ingredients.

 

Is there any corroboration is there for that? (other than repeated internet hearsay)

 

I wonder what gave the early fitted B.R. wagons that orangy look.  I did wonder if it was the result of early colour emulsions, but all the other colours seem OK.  I might try a mix to represent that effect, maybe some added matt red.  Any ideas?

Not the paint specs above.