Signaller69 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) As I model c.1970 with all vac braked stock, I'm looking to backdate some Bachmann TTA tank wagons to (what became TOPS code) TTB, ie Vacuum braked, through air piped, by fitting vac cylinder etc - assuming such mods are correct for this type of wagon. I ask as photos of such wagons appear in this timescale in mixed freights so I assume they are vac braked, though accept they could be through piped instead. I know its a fairly small detail to fuss over but can anyone help with the correct location for fitting a Vacuum cylinder on these please (or link to a clear photo as those I have seen do not show enough detail). Would the chassis arrangement be similar orientation to the Heljan class A tank wagon? If anyone has tackled this job, any photos of your model(s) would be welcome too. Thanks, Martyn. Edited February 21, 2021 by Signaller69 TTV reference corrected to TTB. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) Here’s one of mine Martyn, I removed the air distributor and tank and fitted two vacuum cylinders. You could add some linkages if you felt like it but I’m not sure how they are laid out. This one is still a work in progress and will get safety loops before it gets out on the layout. Edited January 17, 2019 by Waveydavey 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 Here’s one of mine Martyn, I removed the air distributor and tank and fitted two vacuum cylinders. You could add some linkages if you felt like it but I’m not sure how they are laid out. This one is still a work in progress and will get safety loops before it gets out on the layout. Thanks very much for sharing that Dave, I did wonder if they might have 2 vac cylinders (As per the Airfix/Dapol Class B tank). I doubt I will get as far as the safety loops but your brake rigging looks good! Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) I've not studied the Bachy model, despite lots of my photos being used (and more to come) I've never handled the model. This might help https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/wagondetailspoetc/e5343b2b2 However there are many differences in brake rigging in both Air braked and the original vacuum braked arrangement. Many TTA were not TTVs before, but many were. Hundreds of TTVs in my collections. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=ttv https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/fueltankwagons Nice drawings by Peter in Bartlett, Paul W & Fidczuk, Peter (1992) Tank wagons, part 6. SMBP 45ton GLW tank wagons, Model Railways vol. 9 (part 4) pp 182 - 188. Drawing SMBP 45t Class A tank wagon vacuum brake diag. TT026H/J/N (386 & 396) and Airbrake TT088F. Paul Edited January 17, 2019 by hmrspaul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 I've not studied the Bachy model, despite lots of my photos being used (and more to come) I've never handled the model. This might help https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/wagondetailspoetc/e5343b2b2 However there are many differences in brake rigging in both Air braked and the original vacuum braked arrangement. Many TTA were not TTVs before, but many were. Hundreds of TTVs in my collections. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=ttv https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/fueltankwagons Nice drawings by Peter in Bartlett, Paul W & Fidczuk, Peter (1992) Tank wagons, part 6. SMBP 45ton GLW tank wagons, Model Railways vol. 9 (part 4) pp 182 - 188. Drawing SMBP 45t Class A tank wagon vacuum brake diag. TT026H/J/N (386 & 396) and Airbrake TT088F. Paul Hello Paul, many thanks, your first link is particularly useful in showing the arrangement, couldn't really ask for more! The other photos will help with identifying visible brake lever arrangements and differences and of course types with similar suspension set up to the Bachmann model hopefully. Somehow I missed many of those photos as I searched for "Class A tank" instead of using the TOPS code as I should have done.....hey ho! Very grateful for your input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Woodcock Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Hello One thing you don't need to do is alter the springs as the Bachmann TTA is basically a TTV to look at as they have leaf springs. The TTAs have Bruninghaus springs. So if you want an accurate TTA you need to change the springs. The reason to alter the springs was to increase speed especially in Speedlink trains. Cheers George Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 Hello One thing you don't need to do is alter the springs as the Bachmann TTA is basically a TTV to look at as they have leaf springs. The TTAs have Bruninghaus springs. So if you want an accurate TTA you need to change the springs. The reason to alter the springs was to increase speed especially in Speedlink trains. Cheers George Thanks George, that is handy to know! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 One thing you don't need to do is alter the springs as the Bachmann TTA is basically a TTV to look at as they have leaf springs. The TTAs have Bruninghaus springs. So if you want an accurate TTA you need to change the springs. I’m not sure it’s entirely true that air brake conversion happened at the same time as the fitting of Bruninghaus springs George. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2019 Hello One thing you don't need to do is alter the springs as the Bachmann TTA is basically a TTV to look at as they have leaf springs. The TTAs have Bruninghaus springs. So if you want an accurate TTA you need to change the springs. The reason to alter the springs was to increase speed especially in Speedlink trains. Cheers George George is too modest to mention his article in, I believe, Model Rail, on the subject. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I’m not sure it’s entirely true that air brake conversion happened at the same time as the fitting of Bruninghaus springs George. Bruninghaus spring figment on many of the TTAs was a later mod. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 Thanks all, I realise tank wagons are a complex subject with so many different users, brake and springing variations, conversion dates etc which could no doubt fill a book or 3 quite easily. As I'm looking to keep things quite simple I will be leaving the axlebox/spring arrangements as they are, and concentrating on brake cylinders, renumbering and weathering mainly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Further to this subject, I wish to keep my tanks with "Esso" markings suitable for c.1970 period as per the Bachmann model, albeit with renumbering on a few: However, a rather good photo (P.59 in "Seventies Spotting Days Around the Scottish Region", Strathwood) of such grey class "A" tanks being shunted at Oban in 1971 appears to show the "BRT" Owners logo painted out with a dark grey rectangle (judging by the size and location on the tank barrel); did Esso own them at this point? Also would this have applied to the whole Esso fleet at this time? Interestingly, closer study shows all the other tanks in the photo to be Shell/BP black class "B" tanks (presumably supplying the ferries etc). Thanks for any further pointers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Oh no! if I convert one to VB I will need to do all 20.... Will stick at renumbering them I think and ensure that we have no major shunts that could reveal the underframe details.... Phil Edited January 21, 2019 by Phil Bullock 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Oh no! if I convert one to VB I will need to do all 20.... Will stick at renumbering them I think and ensure that we have no major shunts that could reveal the underframe details.... Phil Hi Phil, if I was doing 20 I would be of the same opinion! In fairness the Vac cylinders would be fairly well hidden at the end where there are brake hangers on both sides of the chassis (with the cross bar, to which they would be attached of course); further study is called for before I start attacking any of my 4.... Edit: looking again at Paul Bartlett's photo of the chassis linked in his post above, the Vac cylinders seem very close to the cross bar or even directly above it, but his photo here shows the Vac cylinders position to be inboard: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/smbp64100-64399/h1c2d7c1e Edited January 21, 2019 by Signaller69 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Further to this subject, I wish to keep my tanks with "Esso" markings suitable for c.1970 period as per the Bachmann model, albeit with renumbering on a few: 20190121_120307.jpg However, a rather good photo (P.59 in "Seventies Spotting Days Around the Scottish Region", Strathwood) of such grey class "A" tanks being shunted at Oban in 1971 appears to show the "BRT" Owners logo painted out with a dark grey rectangle (judging by the size and location on the tank barrel); did Esso own them at this point? Also would this have applied to the whole Esso fleet at this time? Interestingly, closer study shows all the other tanks in the photo to be Shell/BP black class "B" tanks (presumably supplying the ferries etc). Thanks for any further pointers. Esso owned some of their tanks, others were hired. Paul Bartlett has the BRT owned ones here, there are photos in the 80's with the BRT visible: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brttanks Esso owned ones were in a different number series: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essomonobloctank 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Esso owned some of their tanks, others were hired. Paul Bartlett has the BRT owned ones here, there are photos in the 80's with the BRT visible: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brttanks Esso owned ones were in a different number series: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essomonobloctank Thanks Giz, might perhaps be a trick of the light due to the angle in the photo I referred to, could just be that the BRT logos are filthy, much like this one: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brttanks/h40125a2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Weren't some of these wagons coded 'TTF', as they were fitted with Automatic Freight Inshot brakes which had two, differently-sized vacuum cylinders? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2019 Weren't some of these wagons coded 'TTF', as they were fitted with Automatic Freight Inshot brakes which had two, differently-sized vacuum cylinders? Ah - that makes sense - take a look at Paul's first link back up in post 4 above.... Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Weren't some of these wagons coded 'TTF', as they were fitted with Automatic Freight Inshot brakes which had two, differently-sized vacuum cylinders? Yes, there were also some TTB with air brakes and through vacuum pipe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Woodcock Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Hello I may be wrong but I think the Esso owned TTV/TTA tanks had different steps to the type in your photograph. They has a single ladder down one end and not two , one on each side. I did a rake for our Towcester layout using Skits etches. See the pictures on Paul Bartlett's site. Cheers George Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted January 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2019 How many of this type of tank that were vacuum braked were TTVs? I seem to remember a lot being TTFs or did some have AFI gear removed and became TTVs? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 I have made a start on a generic vacuum brake conversion in a similar manner to Waveydavey's post earlier, which I am covering on p.28 of my work bench thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112980-signaller69s-projects-tanker-tinkering/page-28 . I hope repeating a couple of photos here is ok. As can be seen from progress thus far the visual difference is not too obvious so it remains conjecture as to whether it is particularly worthwhile: There is a bit more to do yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Hello I may be wrong but I think the Esso owned TTV/TTA tanks had different steps to the type in your photograph. They has a single ladder down one end and not two , one on each side. I did a rake for our Towcester layout using Skits etches. See the pictures on Paul Bartlett's site. Cheers George Thanks George, yes funnily enough I noticed that a lot of the photos showed a single end ladder so will probably attempt that on some if not all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) Beware, those ESSO wagons with single ladders are TSV not TTV (only 36 tonnes GLW). They have different dimensions to the usual TTV/TTA wagons, the wheelbase is the same but the overall length and barrel length and width are smaller: TSV TTA Edited January 22, 2019 by Flood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 Beware, those ESSO wagons with single ladders are TSV not TTV (only 36 tonnes GLW). They have different dimensions to the usual TTV/TTA wagons, the wheelbase is the same but the overall length and barrel length and width are smaller: TSV TSV.jpg TTA Diagram TT088P.jpg Thanks Flood, that is quite relevant to me so I'm glad you pointed that out, saves chopping ladders around, at least from my point of view. Cheers for posting the plan views too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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