Will we ever see a RTR HST in O gauge?

[mcjlf1]

Hi all,

I have posted the following on the GoG RTR forum and had some interesting responses, so thought it might be worth a go here to catch a possibly slightly different audience.   

 

With apologies if this has been covered before, but what do people think are the chances of ever seeing a RTR HST in O gauge?

Given that these trains are arguably one of the best British trains ever produced, and an integral part of the UK railway scene for at least 40 years, I am genuinely surprised that none of the bigger or even smaller RTR outfits don't seem to have considered 'doing' the HST. Maybe there just aren't enough 'modern image' modelers out there...? ** 

Of course there are some detail differences, and numerous livery choices, but when one thinks about it, the basic 2+7/8/9 rakes do not have that many variations compared to, say, the numerous types of Mk.1 that were produced.

Maybe the demand isn't there, or maybe it's the price of full length rakes that manufacturers see as out of reach of many of their potential buyers? (Say ~£550 for power cars & ~£350 for Mk.3s = approx £3.5k for a 2+7 set).

However, one does not necessarily need to buy all the coaches in one go, and people building up a set or two over a few years could be a form of repeat business for the manufacturer. There is the also the potential, with addition of buffing gear, to sell the loco hauled version of the Mk.3 as well which may appeal even to non HST folk. It may even be possible to replicate the OO approach and have one powered and one dummy power car to help keep the cost down... And who knows, maybe one day there would even be a limited edition prototype power car on the market, which surely would be of interest?!

Interested in peoples' thoughts on this, and thanks in advance.

James

**- I'm really a steam/diesel transition era man, but would still like an HST as I am about the same age as the the train, and 'grew up with them' so to speak - I have almost certainly traveled more miles on HSTs than any other train...

[Dungrange]

I think there are probably many reasons.  Price may well be an issue, but I'd think space is probably the biggest issue.  I get the impression that smaller sized models are more appealing in 0 gauge because they can still be accommodated in the average home.  I think it's fair to say that the price of 0 gauge models also tends to result in a bias towards older modellers, who in turn tend to have a bias to modelling earlier time periods - in particular the steam / diesel transition era.  Space available tends to restrict modelling to branch lines and industrial settings rather then the East Coast Main Line.

 

I don't model in 0 gauge - I model in 00 and although I'd like a full length 4 mm scale HST running at full speed, it's difficult to find the space to model a line appropriate for an HST in 4mm scale.  It's considerably more difficult to find that space if modelling in 0 gauge. I suspect the only market is probably those with an 0 gauge garden railway.

[Simond]

It’s certainly feasible, but I think you’d have to convince yourself that there were enough punters out there who would buy a pair of power cars, and maybe three intermediate coaches, at a price that makes a profit. It’s a risk.

 

Firstly, even that is a big train, and is only just over half the length of the 2+7 set. I make it 408mm for the power cars and 529 for the trailers, so a short set as I’ve suggested is still 2.4 metres, 8 feet long, far too big for most home layouts but runnable at a club roundy-roundy, perhaps.

 

And secondly, there’s the cost. There’s a quoted minimum figure of a thousand pieces to make a production run viable - I don’t know if it’s right but it seems reasonable. I can’t see five hundred people shelling out a grand for a pair of power cars, and then perhaps another grand for coaches. That’s quite a few “birthdays and christmasses” rolled into one. I think £350 for a coach is way too high, what are Hattons selling their Gresley coaches at? And the Daersted mk1’s?. If the power cars were maybe £350 each, and the trailers at, perhaps £150, you could have a very short train for £1k, and a full length one for £1750, in that case, maybe.

 

And thirdly, is there a kit? (I know there was, but have not seen one for decades) Does/did it sell well?

 

And having convinced yourself, you’ll need to find a suitable manufacturer/dealer/distributor to put up the money, someone to get the design done, and then subcon the manufacture & assembly to the Far East. If it all goes well, and they sell, there would be a reasonable profit in the project. If it doesn’t, they’d be selling at a loss, just to shift them.

 

My guess, is “no, it’s not likely”. I’d love to be wrong, even though I’d not buy a set.

Best

Simon

[deltic17]

Well I would buy one. I have been expecting one to appear at some point and I'm sure one will.

Covering a period from the mid seventies to the present day it would have lots of potential with various liveries.

Maybe at £350 (only one motor needed per power car as they would run in pairs) and £175 for coaches that would be around £2k for a full set but if you are putting together any full length passenger train you are talking about the same.

With a number of reruns announced recently by Heljan maybe a HST could be the next new project or by someone else?

[Jack]

I agree with Dungrange regarding era and size of models.  I don't really have the space for anything other than shunting tanks and 4-wheel wagons, as do many others.

 

Didn't Skytrex propose an HST and Mk3s a few years back?  How far did they get?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Heljan have done well with their various diesels. So logically an HST could be a sensible project.

[F-UnitMad]

The kit is by PRMRP, still on their website, but I followed the build of one once (on a now defunct Forum) by a professional modelmaker, & it took a LOT of work to make decent.

 

I suspect Power Cars* would be more popular than coaches; as per previous posts space & cost are the main obstacles to owning a full set.

 

*Edit - R-T-R Power Cars.

Edited January 18, 2019 by F-UnitMad

[pwr]

I would buy one but I think the suggestion of a Power car for £350 is wildly optimistic even with only one motor. That said with Dapol producing 122 and 121 single cars it can clearly be done cheaper than Heljan's latest offerings. I doubt the motor in the 121/2 would be powerfil enough to pull half a rake - you would need a motorised Power car at each end but until we get our hands on one and can test the haulage capability I could be wrong.

 

I would also suggest that the trailers would be more than the Darstead or Dapol MK1's - we may be looking at £225 if Dapol did some.

 

If it were a Heljan offering with one motor I would bet something nearer £500 or even more. Depends on the research and tooling costs.

 

Paul R

[njee20]

I'm not sure any of the Heljan locos are a good barometer of the potential market. I suspect many of the 60s shuttle back and forward on minimum space depot layouts which seem popular in O (for obvious reasons), rather than stretching their legs on 36 HAAs (which I think would be about 30 foot long!). Given an HST would really need some space to run in an ideal world, I just can't see it being a very popular model. I'm not sure the idea that a 2+3 would be good either, given most people strive for accuracy with O, that really is the epitome of transet modelling.

 

I'm pretty sure Scoobyra of this parish is doing one, he's certainly doing a/some FGW Dynamic Lines mk3s. I recall seeing a Virgin one on the exhibition circuit, presumably the PRMRP one. It certainly looked the part.

 

I love the idea of having a Pete Waterman-esque budget to be able to run full 2+8 HSTs in O though. One day...

[railwayrod]

Given the history of this iconic and popular set of wheels plus the fact that it revolutionised and probably saved the railways I too am surprised that no one has produced a RTR model of this long standing machine. I agree that the cost of a complete 2+7 or 8 at the outset would be expensive BUT looking at the cost of individual coaches which are currently available £200.00 plus I cannot see that a model of a Mk 3 would be any more expensive. Given that like me most people would not be able to afford to buy 7 or 8 coaches at one go they could buy individual vehicles one or two at a time to build up a complete rake. My Sidelines ex LMS coaches were purchased this way until I had a 5 coach train but no way could I have afforded to splash out the best part of £2k at one go. By adding one at a time on each visit to Telford I now have a nice train with the cost spread over a number of years so I am happy.

 

I have travelled for thousands of miles on HST's and have yet to find anything to better them for comfort and space and I for one would welcome a nice scale model of one. Ramchester could just accommodate a 2+5 set which for me would be an acceptable compromise although it would be out of period but at the end of the day its my railway so rule 1 applies.....

 

Rod

[Hal Nail]

Heljan have plenty of potential variants and re-runs, plus already announced new models in the pipeline.

 

Dapol have the mk1s and obvious variants of those and both have dmu variations.

 

Even if it did happen it could be years away.

[Dava]

Since we have the same thread running on RMWeb and GOG, here is my view.

 

I see a 125 roar through Loughborough most mornings and have just returned from LNER territory where an EMT set was running a Hull Trains diagram yesterday and another running an Aberdeen service through Darlington this evening. Azumas were sitting around Doncaster and York being useless. Brush at Loughborough are refurbing pairs of power cars for Sotland and GWR 2+4 service. Meanwhile, plans for preservation are well advanced on the GCRN at Ruddington. We will see one running on the reunited GCR within a few years. There is a lot of HST action in the East Midlands between the MML and ECML.

 

The point of these observations is that there is an upsurge in interest in the prototype IC125/HST sets as they move into their final service years after a 40+ year career. People will buy a 7mm scale model in just the same way that others are ordering Heljan/Hattons A3, A4 and Gresley coaches. Access to a test track or outside circuit will be a distinct advantage. However I suggest people contribute to the HST Group appeal for a covered 4-vehicle workshop at this point as an essential part of the preservation project for production power cars. https://www.125group.org.uk/

 

Today I took delivery of a pair of Z scale [1:220] 3D printed class 43 power car bodies which will appear on the Midland mainline section of the Z scale display model I am preparing for the GCR Bridge project, to appear at the Stafford show next month. I have to say that 7mm scale is greatly preferable.

 

The HST is the last great British diesel powered train, an iconic creation. Of course a model will appear at some point. Heljan produced 'Falcon' as a one off and the Class 05 for some reason. The HST would sell better than these turkeys.

 

David

[Simond]

I would buy one but I think the suggestion of a Power car for £350 is wildly optimistic even with only one motor. ...

 

If it were a Heljan offering with one motor I would bet something nearer £500 or even more. Depends on the research and tooling costs.

 

Paul R

Paul,

 

My suggestion was really based on several factors:

I think the power cars would be sold in pairs so the price of packaging etc would be somewhat less,

The tooling & design amortisation would be shared over twice as many items,

and I was trying to imagine a price low enough for a big-enough market to be feasible.

 

Maybe the number might be £750 a pair, maybe £850, but I doubt there would be many punters at a grand per pair.

 

Hattons are currently selling class 20s for £320, (RRP £599) it’s a bogie loco with a chassis & body, so reasonably comparable, and I’m guessing they aren’t making a loss...

 

Atb

Simon

[raymw]

I'm not certain as to the 'play value' of a 125 set. I think many would be bored after a few minutes, since you can't do much with it, other than let it stretch its legs, so to speak.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm not certain as to the 'play value' of a 125 set. I think many would be bored after a few minutes, since you can't do much with it, other than let it stretch its legs, so to speak.

 

Fair comment but a lot of O gauge layouts are just a glorified roundy-roundy test track.

 

Heljan have plenty of potential variants and re-runs, plus already announced new models in the pipeline.

 

Dapol have the mk1s and obvious variants of those and both have dmu variations.

 

Even if it did happen it could be years away.

 

Perhaps the obvious candidate for this is Oxford. They have done the work on the coaches for their recent 00 models and they are used to producing 1:43 scale stuff.

[njee20]

Given the misgivings people have with the OO gauge OR mk3s I imagine many O gauge modellers would have kittens if they simply scaled up their OO gauge offerings! I'm not sure about most O gauge layouts being glorified test tracks, small depot layouts seem far more popular?

[81A Oldoak]

I think it is very unlikely. This is a very big project that would tie up a lot of working capital, assuming it is available in the first place, for a long time on a product with limited sales potential. We would prefer to spend the money on several  smaller projects with much greater potential demand. 

 

CK

[mdvle]

As others have said the primary issue is the lack of space to run even a shortened HST.

 

While I am not totally familiar with the O market it does seem RTR is dominated by either smaller items that can be seen on a shunting plank or a small branchline, or in the more modern area diesels that can be used in for the frequently modelled maintenance facility.  Note that the larger steam is missing for the same reason (the Hatton's A3/A4 and coach is really an outlier I suspect in that a lot of people will be happy to purchase an A4 and say 1 coach for the display cabinet, and the direct retailer commission has financial advantages over a normal model).

 

The idea that the purchaser could spread the high cost of an HST set over 5 to 10 years doesn't help the manufacturer pay the bills, they need enough sales to cover the tooling costs ideally in the first run.

 

My guess is an HST, from a financial perspective, will either come as a crowd-funded item, a commission by a retailer (where the financials work a bit differently), or by a manufacturer proposing the model and it only goes ahead if there are sufficient pre-orders with a likely non-refundable deposit.

 

Looking at the O market I suspect a better option for a manufacturer would be to move into non-GWR steam territory given how GWR seems to dominate O RTR.

 

[edit]

 

Perhaps a better option for a future O product would be some narrow gauge items given the success of Bachmann's range of OO9, and it may actually be a surprise that this hasn't happened RTR yet given the space advantages of narrow gauge.

Edited January 21, 2019 by mdvle

[Joseph_Pestell]

There are ways of compressing an HST.

 

I recall seeing a single power car arrive at Bounds Green with a Mk1 Barrier Coach.

 

And I have seen photos of a pair of power cars on their own.

[81A Oldoak]

As others have said the primary issue is the lack of space to run even a shortened HST.

 

While I am not totally familiar with the O market it does seem RTR is dominated by either smaller items that can be seen on a shunting plank or a small branchline, or in the more modern area diesels that can be used in for the frequently modelled maintenance facility.  Note that the larger steam is missing for the same reason (the Hatton's A3/A4 and coach is really an outlier I suspect in that a lot of people will be happy to purchase an A4 and say 1 coach for the display cabinet, and the direct retailer commission has financial advantages over a normal model).

 

The idea that the purchaser could spread the high cost of an HST set over 5 to 10 years doesn't help the manufacturer pay the bills, they need enough sales to cover the tooling costs ideally in the first run.

 

My guess is an HST, from a financial perspective, will either come as a crowd-funded item, a commission by a retailer (where the financials work a bit differently), or by a manufacturer proposing the model and it only goes ahead if there are sufficient pre-orders with a likely non-refundable deposit.

 

Looking at the O market I suspect a better option for a manufacturer would be to move into non-GWR steam territory given how GWR seems to dominate O RTR.

 

[edit]

 

Perhaps a better option for a future O product would be some narrow gauge items given the success of Bachmann's range of OO9, and it may actually be a surprise that this hasn't happened RTR yet given the space advantages of narrow gauge.

Good point about cashflow, which is absolutely key. When RTR projects are delayed for long periods the reason, more often than not, is weak cashflow rather than technical matters. Delays of several years are simply unacceptable; one wagon released last summer was announced at Warley in 2012 - shameful.

 

The reason manufacturers like the GWR is because it sells well. One wag once suggested I do a horse, print GWR somewhere on it and call it a GWR shunting horse - "You'll sell millions." That said, most of the low-hanging GWR loco fruit has probably been plucked. Ultimately, what counts is the potential to sell sufficient volume at a price that is attractive to customers and provides an acceptable to the investor risking the capital. 

 

As for narrow gauge, done that. My first 7mm scale model model was 0n30 viz the Ixion Australian Coffeepot steam railmotor. We made about 1,200 and they sold out quickly. The Coffeepot's appeal was that it was a complete train in one box. The 7mm NGA was very hopeful we would repeat its success with something else. However, this market is very small even compared with 7mm standard gauge. It is a niche within a niche. 

 

CK

[Nearholmer]

Maybe if buyers were prepared to accept less than total hi-fi, it could be done at a reasonable price, as Lionel have with the Amtrak Acela set in the US, although even that costs c£2000, with an additional three cars costing c£700. That set is not a hi-fi model, but is far, far above ‘toy’ in its accuracy.

 

But, my perception is that UK buyers want all (a very hi-fi model, with lots and lots of components), or nothing, causing all the affordability issues mentioned above.

 

Unless it’s made of tin, I probably won’t want one anyway!

Edited January 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Simond]

Chris

 

“One wag once suggested I do a horse, print GWR somewhere on it and call it a GWR shunting horse”

 

Will it be Coarse, Fine or S7?

 

See you Sunday?

Simon

 

 

(In case anyone’s wondering, you get hoof drop in the flangeways if you use an inconsistent set of standards)

Edited January 22, 2019 by Simond

[mdvle]

The reason manufacturers like the GWR is because it sells well. One wag once suggested I do a horse, print GWR somewhere on it and call it a GWR shunting horse - "You'll sell millions." That said, most of the low-hanging GWR loco fruit has probably been plucked.

Nice to have a manufacturer's perspective. 

 

I agree that GWR was the wise/logical choice when creating an O RTR market for steam, so it will be interesting to see what happens next.  As you say, the low-hanging fruit has been done which means either moving up to the larger GWR steam (with the attending issues of using in a realistic manner in a small space) or moving to other railways.  What might end up swinging things is the collectors market maybe preferring a display GWR Castle / King, and that market being more influential in £'s than the market who want to operate a small layout.

 

 

As for narrow gauge, done that. My first 7mm scale model model was 0n30 viz the Ixion Australian Coffeepot steam railmotor. We made about 1,200 and they sold out quickly. The Coffeepot's appeal was that it was a complete train in one box. The 7mm NGA was very hopeful we would repeat its success with something else. However, this market is very small even compared with 7mm standard gauge. It is a niche within a niche.

I agree it would be a gamble, as anyone contemplating the market may well need to announced a loco and some wagons at the same time to create the market and that would be a large initial undertaking.  I suspect despite the niche of a niche issue it could be successful, but then again I don't have any money at stake.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I wonder whether a loco with virtually worldwide applicability might make 0-16.5 a commercial proposition, and would suggest for consideration an O&K 20hp 0-4-0WT.

 

There would, of course, then be a giant argument about 1;43.5 vs 1:45 vs 1:48 scale, so I'd go in the middle!

[johnofwessex]

My immediate thought is that would purchasers want to 'build up' the set over a number of years given that there would be no guarantee that the trailers would continue to be available