RMweb Gold Right Away Posted March 1, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2019 Would any member know why BR did not remove the handrails from all the 7Ps in relation to a visibility issue brought to light following a derailment of 70026 in 1955. It would appear that all WR allocated engines and some examples from other regions were altered but not all members of the class.T Theexpenditure, having been sanctioned in the interests of safety would surely have warranted attention to the entire class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Things took time, and sometimes the time ran out. There are many recommended modifications to engines, some classed as urgent, which took over ten years to work their way through the class(es) concerned, meaning the a loco had at least two heavy overhauls before the job was completed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Wasn't it just the Western allocation that had been authorised for replacement rather than the whole fleet ? All of the Western loco's bar 70021 apparently were modified. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, Bob Reid said: Wasn't it just the Western allocation that had been authorised for replacement rather than the whole fleet ? All of the Western loco's bar 70021 apparently were modified. No, all members of the class were supposed to be altered. Western region engines were given a different pattern of handholds from engines allocated in other regions. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 It was Western Region and some Eastern Region Brits only, after the Milton crash. The WR and GER were both right hand drive railways. It was to do with sightlines being obscured by the smoke deflectors due to drivers being on the "wrong" side of the cab. Not a problem on the LM. They had all migrated to the LMR between 1958 to 1961 anyway, so pointless altering them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_rail_crash Jason 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 I was going to suggest something of the sort myself, Jason, but I was only guessing that would be the case. You have confirmed my less-informed guesses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: It was Western Region and some Eastern Region Brits only, after the Milton crash. The WR and GER were both right hand drive railways. A few engines that were never allocated to the Western or Eastern regions were also modified - 70044/53/54, I think. 70053/4 were allocated to Oxley and Banbury, but only after those sheds were transferred to the LMR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 When the handrails were removed from the deflectors, they were replaced by two methods: the WR cut a number of rectangular holes in the plate, and edged them with brass, of course; while others had circular holes with a crossbar backed by a half-spherical cup, the same as those on LMS Pacifics. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Border Reiver Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Britannias smoke deflectors 1) 2 Handhold design 2) 6 Handhold WR design 3) Original Full handrail design 1) 2 Handholds - 29 locomotives in total 70001-70003 70005-70013 70017 70020 70024 70028-70030 70034-70041 70044 70053-70054 2) 6 Handholds - 9 locomotives in total 70015-70016 70018-70019 70022-70023 70025-70027 3) Original Full Handrail Deflectors - 17 locomotives in total 70000 70004 70014 70021 70031-70033 70042 70044-70052 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 2, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2019 1 hour ago, LMS2968 said: When the handrails were removed from the deflectors, they were replaced by two methods: the WR cut a number of rectangular holes in the plate, and edged them with brass, of course; while others had circular holes with a crossbar backed by a half-spherical cup, the same as those on LMS Pacifics. And as the 'Border Reiver's' post shows some of the WR allocation had LMR pattern handholds instead of the Swindon pattern. Presumably because they were shopped at Crewe for whatever reason? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 2, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) Another interesting question would be why similar modifications were not carried out on the WR's 9Fs, which had much the same handrail arrangement as the Britannias in their original form. Personally I always thought that the best possible look for a Britannia was with BR1A inset tenders and the WR brass rimmed grab holes on the smoke deflectors; polish up the brass on the spectacle plates and you've got a looker, Canton style! Edited March 3, 2019 by The Johnster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, The Border Reiver said: Britannias smoke deflectors 1) 2 Handhold design 2) 6 Handhold WR design 3) Original Full handrail design 1) 2 Handholds - 29 locomotives in total 70001-70003 70005-70013 70017 70020 70024 70028-70030 70034-70041 70044 70053-70054 2) 6 Handholds - 9 locomotives in total 70015-70016 70018-70019 70022-70023 70025-70027 3) Original Full Handrail Deflectors - 17 locomotives in total 70000 70004 70014 70021 70031-70033 70042 70044-70052 I'd make a very few changes to that. 70000 didn't keep the handrails. It got the “non-WR” modification – an extra short handrail and two handholds: https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/WD-and-Standard-locomotives/BR-Standard-pacifics/i-L6KjZ7L/A 70044 appears in two categories in that list – '2 handholds' and 'original full handrails'. It did get the “2 handholds” modification: https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/BRStandardSteam/Britannias/7003870044-Built-1953-Crewe/7004270044/i-wBfnDws/A (Incidentally – what is that at the join of the boiler and smokebox in that photograph?) And 70043 doesn't appear in any category. It seems to have kept its original handrails, at least till 1964 and so probably till withdrawn: https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/BRStandardSteam/Britannias/7003870044-Built-1953-Crewe/7004270044/i-F7S4JVk/A I like this quote from “Loco Profiles #12 – BR Britannias” about the deflector modifications - 'With the not-unknown insistence of the sick to over-apply the cure, the W.R. scattered six hand-holds over each deflector; other regions put in two, naturally of different shape and location.' Edited March 2, 2019 by pH Layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 On 02/03/2019 at 02:36, pH said: A few engines that were never allocated to the Western or Eastern regions were also modified - 70044/53/54, I think. 70053/4 were allocated to Oxley and Banbury, but only after those sheds were transferred to the LMR. Weren't they transferred to the Great Central route due to a motive power shortage? I think that was right hand drive as well. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 18 hours ago, pH said: And 70043 doesn't appear in any category. It seems to have kept its original handrails, at least till 1964 and so probably till withdrawn: https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/BRStandardSteam/Britannias/7003870044-Built-1953-Crewe/7004270044/i-F7S4JVk/A 70043 and 70044 didn't have smoke deflectors when built. They were air braked and un-named. https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-RAILWAYS-STANDARD-CLASSES/BRITISH-RALWAYS-STANDARD-CLASS-LOCOMOTIVES/i-97WVG3Q/ https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-RAILWAYS-STANDARD-CLASSES/BRITISH-RALWAYS-STANDARD-CLASS-LOCOMOTIVES/i-8BhKx7D Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Border Reiver Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Ref the duplicate entry for 70044. After checking 70044 is correct with 2 Handholds, Item 2 should now read. 3) Original Full Handrail Deflectors - 17 locomotives in total 70000 70004 70014 70021 70031-70033 70042-70043 70045-70052 With regard to the confusion of 70000, checking my photos again I found that it did indeed have two handholds in later years under BR. However, in preservation it regained the Original Full Handrails 70000 on Carlisle Kingmoor shed in July 1963 with two handholes 70000 at Crewe Works Open Day 21 May 2000 after it it regained the Original Full Handrails 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Weren't they transferred to the Great Central route due to a motive power shortage? I think that was right hand drive as well. I understood the Britannias that went to Banbury (8 from the 70045-54 batch) went there because coaling facilities were no longer available at the London end of the ex-GCR. 70045-54 had BR1D tenders ( I knew them as 'heavyweight Brits') with higher coal capacity and could carry enough coal for a return trip to London. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 53 minutes ago, The Border Reiver said: With regard to the confusion of 70000, checking my photos again I found that it did indeed have two handholds in later years under BR. However, in preservation it regained the Original Full Handrails Yes, I was only referring to its condition at the end of its BR days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Here's two Hornby Brits regauged to EM showing the full handrails (70052) and WR style holes in the smoke deflectors (a rather mint 70015). Photos by John Elliott and Tim Easter 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
73080 Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 On 02/03/2019 at 02:36, pH said: ...70053/4 were allocated to Oxley .... The Britannias allocated to Oxley for the Summer 1965 timetable were 70045/47 & 53. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, 73080 said: The Britannias allocated to Oxley for the Summer 1965 timetable were 70045/47 & 53. OK, faulty sentence construction. I wrote "70053/4 were allocated to Oxley and Banbury ...". To be clearer, I should have written "70053 was allocated to Oxley and Banbury, and 70054 was allocated to Banbury ...". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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