How did they release train engines in goods yards?

[PhilH]

 I wonder if anyone would know the answer to this...goods train comes into yard, its final destination, engine at head end. Engine is now trapped at end of siding, so would there always be a run round road for said engine to escape or would there be a shunt release manoeuvre performed (this would I take it necessitate having a long headshunt to perform it) Timescale is 1950s/early 60's.

 

Anyone know how it was done?

[Andy Hayter]

Probably  nearly as many answers as there were goods yards.

Options are

run round in the yard

run round on the main line - allowing the loco to back the train into the yard.

No run round but yard worked in one direction only so that the train backs into the yard leaving the loco free.

Hand shunting of wagons with pinch bars and capstans

Horses used to do the shunting - certainly into the early 60s at a few locations.

[br2975]

How long is a piece of string ?

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The manner in which a loco is released would depend upon the layout of the yard. 

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A run round loop would help the train engine to be cut off its train, and possibly then shunt the yard before departing again in the return direction.

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In the absence of a fun round facility, then a yard pilot, or shunt release loco would need to be used to draw the incoming train back into a headshunt/shu nting neck to allow the release of the train engine e.

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A gain, all this depends upon the layout of the yard.

[Stubby47]

Nah, 'Hand of God' comes along and picks the loco up and puts it back on the track behind the train.

 

[Wickham Green]

8 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Nah, 'Hand of God' comes along and picks the loco up and puts it back on the track behind the train.

 

...... taking great care not to tangle his tensionlocks and lift the whole train .....................

[Captain Kernow]

Send it all by road and the problem goes away.

 

R.B.Eeching.

 

[The Johnster]

As has been said, on the 'traditional' railway it depended on the individual yard, but the scenario in which the train loco is trapped on arrival by it's own train behind it is uncommon.  It requires a pilot loco to attach to the train and withdraw it, releasing the train loco.  The usual (not saying it was exclusive) arrangement was that there was either a reception siding or loop for the train to be left in by the train loco pending attention by the pilot, or from which it could shunt it's own train clear of the running lines, or a pair of trailing crossovers on the running lines by which the train loco could run around it's train and be the right end to propel it into the yard.  

 

An alternative, used where yards are accessed by single track sections of 'long siding' or where local instructions allow it under the authority of the Sectional Appendix (to the Rules and Regulations), is to propel the train to it's destination.  This would only occur over relatively short distances; for instance, the E76 working at Canton in the 70s propelled traffic from Penarth North Curve yard (not Penarth, just to the south of Canton shed alongside the TVR Penarth Dock branch) to the various sidings on Ferry Road and the Ely Harbour Esso tank farm, and later in the day also serviced the Wiggins Teape Ely Paper Mill, which had a lovely little RSH saddle tank. This latter working propelled traffic on the up Radyr Quarry line to the Mill, accessed by ground frame, and hauled the return traffic back to North Curve wrong road.  All this was done loose coupled without brake vans; loco was an 08.  br2975 and Stationmaster Mike will remember this working well.

 

You've opened a can of worms with this, Phil!  It's one of those situations where the rules appear to apply absolutely except for when they apparently don't apply, but of course do in reality as the working is always authorised somewhere.  It is part of a traincrew's route knowledge to be familiar with this, and E76 carried a travelling shunter who knew the job backwards (shame he was useless in the forward direction, mind).  This was proper railway work...

[John-Miles]

According to a former signalman, at Brynamman East, the train stopped short of the yard, the guard put on his handbrake (in reality it would already be on because of the gradient), the engine uncoupled and ran into the platform road and the train was then run into the goods yard by gravity. The engine then emerged and did the shunting. All ok provided the train wasn't too long I suppose in which case there were various options. The gradient was 1 in 50.

[Trog]

If no one from the operating is watching you can move about a dozen loaded wagons with a JCB. If the loads are some form of mineral or spoil bury the bucket in one of the loads so the pull is transferred to a wide area of the wagon, that way you don't damage the end of the wagon. 

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, PhilH said:

 I wonder if anyone would know the answer to this...goods train comes into yard, its final destination, engine at head end. Engine is now trapped at end of siding, so would there always be a run round road for said engine to escape or would there be a shunt release manoeuvre performed (this would I take it necessitate having a long headshunt to perform it) Timescale is 1950s/early 60's.

 

Anyone know how it was done?

 

Firstly,  goods yards normally formed a trailing connection onto running lines, so wagons would be reversed into the sidings - not pulled in head first.

 

Secondly, at 'dead ends' like branch line termini, a run round would be provided (usually for passenger operations) and this could be used for the engine to swap ends before reversing the wagons into the sidings as per a through line.

 

Thirdly, most freight trains were scheduled to run from one marshalling yard (with plenty of run round options) to another marshalling yard and dropping off / picking up traffic as necessary en-route.  This gives rise to goods yards only being shunted in one direction (e.g. down freight trains) with any up direction traffic having to go back on itself later (much like a 'left in, left out' turning on a dual carriageway where there is no central reservation gap and folk wanting to turn right must initially go the wring way and come back on themselves

[eastglosmog]

Another method was to use a rope to pull wagons into the adjoining siding, either forward or backwards, as required.

 

 

 

[PhilH]

Thanks for the replies, very informative. I think I will put in a run round road in the goods yard (it is going to be terminus with a single main line running into it, forgot to mention that) but given the above replies I am happy that there is more than one way to skin this particular cat.

[Compound2632]

Reading Terry Essery's Firing Days at Saltley, it seems that at least on the Midland lines around Birmingham in the 50s, long-distance goods trains departed from and arrived at marshalling yards such as Washwood Heath or Water Orton - through yards - rather than from the terminal goods stations - Lawley Street, Central, or Camp Hill. One presumes that these trains had been made up by (or were broken down into) trip workings from and to these various depots, or for onward working to other more distant destinations. 

 

Nevertheless inspection of the layouts of these terminal goods stations shows that their arrival lines were equipped with engine release crossovers just like any passenger terminus.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Compound2632

[DCB]

Going back to the OP most goods would run from marshalling yard to marshalling yard.   The yard might just be a couple of sidings and a loop like Okehampton or Marston sidings  or huge like Acton Yard, or unidirectional like Moreton Cutting.  There trains would be assembled from trip workings from other yards or branches and at the far end broken up into rafts for other yards and branches.  The train described would be a trip freight or a terminating pickup freight.  90% of the time they terminated in the passenger platform and the loco ran round there.  The idea of goods terminating in goods sidings is pretty much a model railway concept not based on  full size practice.  Likewise most shunting used the running lines as a headshunt.  The often used model strategem of a short headshunt was normally just a stub in full size and employed as a substitute for a catch point so vehicles hit a bufffer stop rather than ended up on the ground.

 

 

[PhilH]

16 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Going back to the OP most goods would run from marshalling yard to marshalling yard.   The yard might just be a couple of sidings and a loop like Okehampton or Marston sidings  or huge like Acton Yard, or unidirectional like Moreton Cutting.  There trains would be assembled from trip workings from other yards or branches and at the far end broken up into rafts for other yards and branches.  The train described would be a trip freight or a terminating pickup freight.  90% of the time they terminated in the passenger platform and the loco ran round there.  The idea of goods terminating in goods sidings is pretty much a model railway concept not based on  full size practice.  Likewise most shunting used the running lines as a headshunt.  The often used model strategem of a short headshunt was normally just a stub in full size and employed as a substitute for a catch point so vehicles hit a bufffer stop rather than ended up on the ground.

 

 

I have to say I like the idea of terminating in passenger platforms and then shunted into yard. Was there a dedicated stub for brake vans to be stabled whilst any shunting was carried out? 

[roythebus]

Again that depends on the layout of the yard. If the loco was shunting the train from the back, the brake van would usually stay coupled to the loco.

[DCB]

4 hours ago, PhilH said:

I have to say I like the idea of terminating in passenger platforms and then shunted into yard. Was there a dedicated stub for brake vans to be stabled whilst any shunting was carried out? 

Quite often the procedure was for the loco to run round the train  and then shunt the yard because you first need to clear the outgoing wagons to make room for the incoming ones, in the case of coal wagons there may be some part emptied ones to be separated from the empties. There may even be some wagons which will return without being filled or emptied as intermediate stations may only be able to be shunted in one direction.  Brake Vans worked on rosters, they were effectively the guard's mobile office.  They needed a while to get the fire going so the guard could get nice and warm and snug in winter.  They moved around quite differently to wagons.  Quite often if a train was cancelled due to no traffic the engine and brake van would still run so as to be in the right place for their next duty. On GWR Branches in particular there would often be only one brake van which for weeks or months would be part of every single goods train.  In pre nationalisation days it was very unusual to find brake vans working through from one company to another though the GW had yards in Manchester for instance miles from the nearest GW tracks.

Some quite large stations had no goods arrival roads leaving the only option to arrive at passenger platforms. in some cases the "Station Pilot" would pull the train back onto the departure road and then shunt it into the yard. Again GW at bigger stations  the "Station Pilot" may well be a loco from a depot miles away shunting between other duties.

GWR Steam "shunters" were not like "Gronks" Most could run at 60mph on passenger trains, not the Gronks 25 MPH later reduced to 15 as they wore out, many ran passenger trains, goods trains and shunted during a single days work.   A loco tied to its home station was a rarity (Though the Bath 57XX was an exception)

 

[adb968008]

Slightly off topic but..

BQ Bury depot had capstans, at the end of the shed lines to winch class 504 Electrics into the depot, as being 3rd rail, no electric rails were run from outside into the depot. However I never saw these being used, unwinding a 6 odd coach length worth of cable to connect to an EMU then winch it all in was a slow process.

 

Instead the driver would take a run upto the depot, at around 10mph and coast into the depot, which was on a gradient.

 

Exiting the depot was easy, just undo the hand brake and let gravity do the rest.

Edited April 25, 2019 by adb968008

[eastglosmog]

15 hours ago, PhilH said:

I have to say I like the idea of terminating in passenger platforms and then shunted into yard. Was there a dedicated stub for brake vans to be stabled whilst any shunting was carried out? 

And then there was Fairford, where the passenger trains had to terminate in the goods yard (after discharging the passengers at the platform) in order to run round!

[adb968008]

Not your typical freight train, but this gives a sense of the possible..

this is the last freight train to from Bury to Holcombe Brook in August 1963, with 46410. It has extra Brake vans as its hired by the LCGB, but still shunts (and pushes) coal wagons up the branch, shunts and sorts more before returning.

 

Some parts of todays ELR havent changed..

https://youtu.be/edrnxOCF464

Edited April 25, 2019 by adb968008

[Wickham Green]

13 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

..........  In pre nationalisation days it was very unusual to find brake vans working through from one company to another ...........................

 

There were, of course, through workings of complete freight trains : Moreton Cutting has been mentioned already but Hither Green and Temple Mills come to mind as examples ...... it's probably fair to say that you'd be unlikely to find a brake van from a 'foreign ' line unless the loco at the front was 'foreign' too.

[The Stationmaster]

On 24/04/2019 at 21:11, PhilH said:

I have to say I like the idea of terminating in passenger platforms and then shunted into yard. Was there a dedicated stub for brake vans to be stabled whilst any shunting was carried out? 

It was by far and away the most common way of dealing with a freight train at a branch terminus -and don't forget that on most track layouts the passenger platform usually provided the longest runround length of siding.

 

Starting freights from and terminating them at major goods depots was not unusual - for example many trains started from or terminated at Paddington Goods.  But in such cases part of the yard was laid out to deal with suvch activity with sufficient room to assemble a departing train or shunt an arrival plus there was the facility to detach and runt round the train engine on arriving trains.   But that would only apply at major depots - not the average branch terminus.

[phil-b259]

On 24/04/2019 at 21:11, PhilH said:

I have to say I like the idea of terminating in passenger platforms and then shunted into yard. Was there a dedicated stub for brake vans to be stabled whilst any shunting was carried out? 

 

If the shunting manoeuvres involved leaving part of the train on the running lines (typically found on through lines where the loco drew wagons forward then set them back into the sidings) then the brake van would stay with the bit of the train being left on the running line.

 

if the yard was at the end of the line then the van could end up in a suitible siding while the train was being made up - but it could also simply be left in the platform if passenger traffic was infrequent enough.

 

In short, the shunting of goods yards was very dependent on the situation pertaining to each station - train frequency, siding space and where the trains worked to / from all having a far bigger effect than any ‘rules’ as it were (though obviously similarly laid out stations may have been worked using the same techniques).

Edited May 4, 2019 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

If the shunting manoeuvres involved leaving part of the train on the running lines (typically found on through lines where the loco drew wagons forward then set them back into the sidings) then the brake van would stay with the bit of the train being left on the running line.

 

if the yard was at the end of the line then the van could end up in a suitible siding while the train was being made up - but it could also simply be left in the platform if passenger traffic was infrequent enough.

 

In short, the shunting of goods yards was very dependent on the situation pertaining to each station - train frequency, siding space and where the trains worked to / from all having a far bigger effect than any ‘rules’ as it were (though obviously similarly laid out stations may have been worked using the same techniques).

In some cases the brakevan would be using as a Shunter's truck as it had suitable footboards and handrails and could save a lot of walking.