Unusual wagon at Cambridge MPD 1961 - what was it for?

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

Another corner of a neg wagon to identify.  It was branded 'Running and Maintenance Depot Cambridge' (note no mpd or PW department etc,) and was carrying these strange containers that were either open sided or had a removable side which secured in place.  There is no sign of the sides.

My money is on movement of engine parts between Stratford and Cambridge but the branding does not imply this

 

Anyone seen one before?

 

Tony

 

p.s. it is the LNER shed next to the station, the LNW Super D is there as the LNW shed had closed by that time

 

[chris p bacon]

They are unusual, the lifting points on the top mean they are meant to be continually handled rather than a one off load, and the ends are strengthened (the shape) as if they are a tank of some sort.

 

Are you sure the sides are missing ? to me it looks like there is some form of cap or hatch on the top of them  The right hand one looks circular with a flat bar 'D' handle that is a bit mishapen.

[Fat Controller]

I'd suggest it was an early version of the DENPARTS wagons, used to carry loco components from main works to depots.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/denpartzrv shows these.

The wagon itself is an LNER-built 'Conflat'.

[jim.snowdon]

I'd suggest that these are actually tanks, as there appear to be lids on top.

 

The fact that it is branded to the depot, rather than the works, would suggest that it was used for disposing of something noxious from the depot. Material coming from the works would have come in/on vehicles "owned" by the CM&EE department.

 

Jim

[iands]

I must admit they do look like a tank of some sort. Perhaps for waste oil/contaminated diesel. Hard to tell the dimensions from the photo, but could the tanks be lifted off the wagon and placed in a pit between the rails in the depot for collecting engine oil/diesel during maintenance,  and when full loaded back on to the wagon for disposal? Just a thought.

Edited May 6, 2019 by iands

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I'd suggest it was an early version of the DENPARTS wagons, used to carry loco components from main works to depots.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/denpartzrv shows these.

The wagon itself is an LNER-built 'Conflat'.

I'm inclined to go along with that to some extent.  The wagon is obviously Running & Maintenance Dept which suggests it could well have been used for stores or material of some kind potentially to/from main works as it looks to be in good condition and is XP branded so hardly an internal user vehicle although equally clearly allocated to a particular depot (which would be common enough in order to try to ensure it went back to the right depot).  None of which gives any real clue as to the purpose of the wagon although presumably the 'containers' were intended to be removed at some stage of their working for a purpose which gains little clue from their appearance.  A dmu depot had been opened at Cambridge in 1958 and there was also a wagon repair works there in the former GNR engine shed so apart from something associated with locos the 'containers' might have had a potential use in connection with the dmu depot (although not labelled Denparts) or the wagon works.

 

The picture is also relatively simple to put a 'no later than' date to as the last LNWR 0-8-0s allocated to Bletchley had departed by January 1962 so it seems reasonable to suppose it predates that month/year.  In addition the legend 'Running & Maintenance' dates the lettering to the period prior to the divorcing of footplate staff management and control from the M&EE Dept which occurred some time in the late 1950s/early '60s although the dates probably varied between the Regions. (some of us were still using old stationery headed 'Running & Maintenance Dept' in the late 1970s/early' 80s - complete in some cases with the original unicycling lion symbol long after it had gone out of use)

[stewartingram]

Only just got back onto RMWeb after a week or more, so only just seen this thread.

As a local teenager in Cambridge at this time, I'll just clarify the position of the various sheds in the area, and see if that helps? Cambridge was a big place, with 3 relevant steam sheds (not all still open at this time) and a new dmu shed, plus of course the PW depot at Chesterton Junction, which had its own locos and "running shed" (rather a grand description).

1. The GE shed, adjacent to platform 6 on the NW side. This was the only latter day steam shed, covering a fairly large & scattered area. It was a multi road shed, with a yard alongside (with coaling tower and turntable). Between the back end of the shed and the tt was the stores etc, and a smaller shed which I believe to be a workshop. I only got in their once, to find a small diesel shunter (not local) under repair. From memory, this may have been a class 02 or similar, in transit from somewhere to somewhere else? At the north end of the mpd was another area, where the crane was stabled along with a few other locos. This area was known locally as the Dump. I saw a couple more of those shunters there around the same time. No diesels were allocated to this shed. Though it is possible early 03/08 allocations were kept there before the Coldhams Lane shed opened?

2. The GN shed, closed by this period & in use as the regional Road Vehicle Maintenance Depot. This was situated on the east side opposite p1, and I believe a modern nightclub or hotel now stands there.

3. The LNW shed which was located on the sw side of Hills Road bridge. I'm not sure when it closed properly, but could be considered out of use at this time, though I saw at least 1 Bletchley loco visit the site whilst I was at school (1960-1965).

4. The new dmu shed at Coldhams Lane, still in use today by (Arriva?). This was one of the main dmu sheds for E.Anglia, also servicing the local allocation of 03/08 shunters. I believe the only proper diesel loco shedded there - for 1 month - was D5508, for training purposes. The shed seemed to be completely independent to the GE shed.

As for the wagon, I vaguely recall seeing something similar, but at that age took no notice. The load looks like tanks to me, with a cap on top. Could they be for transport of loco sand? I seem to remember the sand plant was close to the coaling tower.

 

Stewart 

[Titan]

Are they tanks for boiler sludge?

[Rail-Online]

Thanks for all this useful discussion - very interesting!  I just noticed that by the look of the chain to the left of the wagon that there is indeed another of these behind the smokebox of the G2.  So at least 2 of them were running.   This neg was dated 1961 - it is in the title to the subject but easy to miss.

 

Cheers Tony

 

p,s. Stewart - what was the 'shed' at Chesterton Junction for the NG locos like?

[stewartingram]

TBH I really don't know, although I did visit the site before closure. I've looked in the book "BR Departmental Locos 1948-1968", but no clues there just some std. gauge track plans. It does state however that steam locos were serviced at 31A steam shed, and diesels at Coldhams Lane.

[Crantock]

I don't buy that those are on the wagon long term.  The points to which the chains are attached look like they have another function.  The sides are not absolutely flat which is odd as is the fact that the near side is empty. 

 

Speculation - does anyone know what an ash plant hopper looked like?  ie the bucket used to collect and then elevate ash to be deposited in an open wagon.

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Crantock said:

I don't buy that those are on the wagon long term.  The points to which the chains are attached look like they have another function.  The sides are not absolutely flat which is odd as is the fact that the near side is empty. 

 

Speculation - does anyone know what an ash plant hopper looked like?  ie the bucket used to collect and then elevate ash to be deposited in an open wagon.

 

Little narrow gauge wagons with slope sides. There's an article on them in the current and last months Railway Magazine. The article is about coaling towers but ash plants get mentioned and there is a drawing.

 

 

I think the clue is in front of them. The bunch of springs that look like they have just been unloaded or are going to be loaded.

 

 

Jason

[roythebus]

It would seem logical that the containers are used for springs, mostly the same size and shape and bloody heavy! the securing eyes seem to be very heavy duty. I can't see these containers being used for sludge/waste oil/diesel, those things would be in round tanks not square ones. Ash would be collected in hopper type wagons to enable easy unloading.

[jim.snowdon]

10 minutes ago, roythebus said:

It would seem logical that the containers are used for springs, mostly the same size and shape and bloody heavy! the securing eyes seem to be very heavy duty. I can't see these containers being used for sludge/waste oil/diesel, those things would be in round tanks not square ones. Ash would be collected in hopper type wagons to enable easy unloading.

Large components like those springs would have travelled in an open wagon, as did ash. Labour was still cheap(ish) and open wagons are easier to load by hand than hoppers.

 

Apart from that, the "boxes" loaded on the wagon have a very definite air of being tanks, not least by virtue of the manhole lid that is just visible on the top.

 

36 minutes ago, Crantock said:

I don't buy that those are on the wagon long term.  The points to which the chains are attached look like they have another function.  The sides are not absolutely flat which is odd as is the fact that the near side is empty. 

It has been pointed out already that the wagon is, or had been, a Conflat, hence the number of attachment rings along the diminutuve sides, which only need to be of minimal height to assist in loading the original containers. As it is, the securing shackles are typical of those used with Conflats.

 

Jim

[Crantock]

47 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Large components like those springs would have travelled in an open wagon, as did ash. Labour was still cheap(ish) and open wagons are easier to load by hand than hoppers.

 

Apart from that, the "boxes" loaded on the wagon have a very definite air of being tanks, not least by virtue of the manhole lid that is just visible on the top.

 

It has been pointed out already that the wagon is, or had been, a Conflat, hence the number of attachment rings along the diminutuve sides, which only need to be of minimal height to assist in loading the original containers. As it is, the securing shackles are typical of those used with Conflats.

 

Jim

I was obviously not clear on my thinking.  In speculating it was an ash hopper, i was thinking of the part that lifted the ash into the overhead hopper, not the skip wagon.

 

similarly, the attachments points that did not look purpose built were those on the container not the conflat.  

 

Still, speculating having been borne too late and lacking reference materials to hand.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

They seem to be the size of Type L containers which were used for powders etc, but there were containers called Tote Bins which seem to have had an indeterminate use, could they be a version of those?

 

Mike.

[Trog]

To my mind they do look like some kind of tank. If so they must have been carrying something clean like water, dry sand or perhaps some sort of water treatment chemical As if the load had been oil or slurry we would probably see evidence of it on the outside of the tank.

[Caledonian]

All I can offer is a couple of observations:

 

The fixing points on the boxes look odd and suggest that they are just handy fixing points for the chains rather than intended for that purpose. Their real purpose looks to be for attaching to something mechanical, or even hinges.

 

Whatever their true purpose they are obviously not so strongly constructed as the two upright stanchions with the substantial rings on the top. These suggest a linkage to a crane or something of that nature and are clearly intended for lifting in a way that the brackets attached to the chains are not. 

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

The lifting eyes on the sides of the boxes/tanks are required to take the full weight, whereas the shackles on the corners are there purely for holding down purposes and do not need to be anywhere near as strong.

 

Jim

[Izzy]

Would the small star painted on the centre of the solebar underneath the lettering indicate what kind of substance they carried? My money would be on oil/diesel etc, something connected with the recent arrival of diesel traction, daily/weekly maintainence, and liquids needing disposal on a regular basis via mechanical handling (hence the hefty corner location points), perhaps at a central point such as Stratford.

 

Izzy

[neal cooper]

The small star indicates the position of the vacuum brake release cord and doesn’t refer to any possible load.

[Catkins]

I'm going to throw in a curve ball here - I don't think the 'boxes' on the conflat do have open sides, or there would be some hints of the internal shapes. I suspect that the black squares are some form of picture censorship, to remove any and all identifying marks from the 'boxes'. I will agree that they are designed to be craned on and off differing modes of transport, and there does appear to be some sort of loading or inspection hatch on the top.

 

My initial thought was some sort of container for creosote to be used at the PW works at Chesterton.

But I considered a few other things, the location (East Anglia) the general era (immediate post WW2 / Cold war) the pictorial "flatness" of the dark black (censored) and the driving force behind ISO containers (The US military) - I'm going to suggest that they were a tank or hopper of some sort for use by the USAF at somewhere like Mildenhall or Lakenheath, and being mounted on a passenger rated vehicle meant they could be moved by the branch passenger services if required.

[Baby Deltic]

Looking at the shape of the sides which are 'mansarded' probably for strength, and the small size of the top lid I would say that are probably carrying some form of powder such as water treatment for steam boilers or loco coolant mix (or sand possibly from Fen Drayton) which may have been vacuumed out as required. I think liquids would have been supplied in some form of tank wagon for ease of discharge by gravity and hose. The other possibility to my mind is that they were craned onto trolleys and moved to loco/DMU servicing tracks and a small length of hose attached to coolant/sump drain valves which were solebar height on diesels if I recall correctly and waste fluids were drained in through the top opening for removal to SF or another disposal point. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Baby Deltic

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

I have finally worked out what they are!  They are loco sand bins. I found a photo of Ripple Lane depot and it showed the futuristic sanding facility.  There high above the loco on the stage was two of these 'boxes' showing a pipe attached to the end delivering the sand to a loco below.  They were winched up to the stage direct from the wagon which was positioned underneath. I seem to recall they were also at other ER depots such as Stratford and unless my memory is failing me I think Cambridge DMU depot had one!

 

 

Here is a link to the full pic https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p265322570/hd6443570

 

Cheers Tony

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Tony

 

Looking through my GER loco shed books, Cambridge Depot had the same type of sand hopper that Bachmann produced. The sand being delivered to the hopper by compressed air from the sand dryer building.

 

Having said that Coldhams Lane depot had a similar affair to Ripple Lane, photo on page 35 of On Shed number 3, Eastern Region, southern section ISBN 978-1-910554-84-5.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Clive Mortimore