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Annie

A Search for Broad Gauge Locomotive Drawings

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I am very interested in finding drawings for these two convertible Broad Gauge classes of locomotive.  If anyone can direct me to publications/books/magazines where such drawings can be found I will be very grateful.

 

yeiRDe2.jpg

 

MvHJbm8.jpg

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A Google search turns up the following in the RCTS library list, but the book itself does not appear when searched for. But it sounds promising if you can find a copy. Unfortunately the exact year of publication seems uncertain:

GWR Broad Gauge Locomotives (Drawings). Bird GF. Locomotive Pub. 191X

Jonathan

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Posted (edited)

I have been able to find a copy of this book at a reasonable price Jonathon, but as to the one you found a listing of there is not a sign of it.

 

sXPV5Lu.jpg

 

The difficulty with buying books I've never sighted before is knowing what drawings they contain.  Some books only have the common well known ones that turn up everywhere and they are of course no use to me.

 

There are these very nice pages from the 1910 Volume of 'The Engineer', but the two engines I want are missing from the line up.  https://www.diagram3d.com/index.php?route=product/product/download&download_id=47

Edited by Annie
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The RCTS book you picture is unlikely to have any drawings of use. I don't have that particular part but plenty of the other 13 and none of those have drawings of the kind you seek. 

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Thanks for the information.  I thought that might be the case.  Well at least it was cheap and it might be of use as a general reference.

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Posted (edited)

I had a  look in the Oakwood press book 'Broad Gauge of the Great Western Railway, the Bristol and Exeter Railway and the North and South Devon Railways: A selection of 7mm locomotive drawings' by Mike Sharman, but unfortunately neither of those locomotives were featured.

 

The book does feature side elevations of many other broad gauge locos, if that is of interest though.

 

Edited by Sarcodelic
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Thanks very much for checking for me.  It does sound like it would be a useful book to have though.  I've skirted around my interest in the Broad Gauge for far too long and I thought it was about time I got more serious about it.  I was particularly interested in the two classes of engines that I posted pictures of since they worked over the former Cornwall Railway lines which is my main sphere of interest.

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15 hours ago, Annie said:

I have been able to find a copy of this book at a reasonable price Jonathon, but as to the one you found a listing of there is not a sign of it.

 

https://i.imgur.com/sXPV5Lu.jpg

 

The difficulty with buying books I've never sighted before is knowing what drawings they contain.  Some books only have the common well known ones that turn up everywhere and they are of course no use to me.

 

There are these very nice pages from the 1910 Volume of 'The Engineer', but the two engines I want are missing from the line up.  https://www.diagram3d.com/index.php?route=product/product/download&download_id=47

 

I would suggest you buy this. You will doubtless find it fascinating and a source of background information. 

 

It does contain a profile drawing of the convertible saddle tank you need, plus the class history, dimensions etc.

 

The drawing is reproduced small, however; a quarter page of the A5 format.  RCTS volumes tend to have photographs, resorting to drawings only as an alternative, but it has this drawing, and one or two others, which are credited to one J B N Ashford.  I would imagine that these must be reproduced somewhere else, perhaps in larger format.  

 

937689468_IMG_1839-Copy.JPG.ee80da7b3d96ab13bb98d1cedd0a68f9.JPG

1714256254_IMG_1839-Copy(2).JPG.93e1884cf62ad27cb0dae157e21f5fcb.JPG

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Ooooo that looks just the thing James.  Thank you very much.  May I ask what is the title of the RCTS publication?   I have purchased a copy of  the RCTS book 'Locomotives of the Great Western Railway Part 2: Broad Gauge' at not too horrifying a price and the Empire Express Wheelbarrow Delivery Company thinks I should have it in my hands on the 20th of September all going well.

 

The convertible saddle tank is my main interest at the moment and I do have some reasonably good pictures of the breed, but a drawing even if only a small one is going to be a big help to me.

 

P1ptAL8.jpg

 

2xIBrCi.jpg

 

fIkk4uX.jpg

 

 

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1 minute ago, Annie said:

Ooooo that looks just the thing James.  Thank you very much.  May I ask what is the title of the RCTS publication?   I have purchased a copy of  the RCTS book 'Locomotives of the Great Western Railway Part 2: Broad Gauge' at not too horrifying a price and the Empire Express Wheelbarrow Delivery Company thinks I should have it in my hands on the 20th of September all going well.

 

The convertible saddle tank is my main interest at the moment and I do have some reasonably good pictures of the breed, but a drawing even if only a small one is going to be a big help to me.

 

https://i.imgur.com/P1ptAL8.jpg

 

https://i.imgur.com/2xIBrCi.jpg

 

https://i.imgur.com/fIkk4uX.jpg

 

 

 

Sorry not to be clear, my pictures were of the illustrations for this class in the book you've just ordered:  The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway Part Two Broad Gauge, RCTS!

 

 

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I thought it might be, but I thought I'd ask just in case it was a publication I hadn't come across yet.

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18 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

A Google search turns up the following in the RCTS library list, but the book itself does not appear when searched for. But it sounds promising if you can find a copy. Unfortunately the exact year of publication seems uncertain:

GWR Broad Gauge Locomotives (Drawings). Bird GF. Locomotive Pub. 191X

Jonathan

 

It is reference number 5938 in Ottley's Bibliography of British Railway History, which gives the publication date as circa 1903. Contents described as "fifty three drawings reprinted from the Locomotive Magazine, 1901-3, with marginal lists".

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Posted (edited)

Now I come to try, I find it surprisingly hard to come at drawings. 

 

I think the Lightmoor Press volumes will probably contain drawings, but only Part 1 has been produced and that's just 1837-40!  Bit of a wait there, then.

 

I don't know if anyone is familiar with Geof Sheppard's Broad Gauge Locomotives?  This seems to be the standard modern reference work, but I am not aware that it runs to drawings. 

 

Broad Gauge Society data sheets seem to be available for rolling stock and infrastructure, but not locomotives.  I suppose, though, that if anyone knows how to find loco drawings, it's those chaps!

 

I suspect you have found This Site.  It includes drawings of other classes, suggesting that a plan of the saddle tank is not readily available.  It does usefully say in which books the pictures are to be found, however!

 

All of which made me wonder whether it is worth also tracking down drawings in standard gauge condition; I concluded, however, that it probably isn't!

 

I don't know of any showing the original appearance of those built to standard gauge, before conversion to Broad Gauge.

 

There is a late condition drawing of 1564 as a standard gauge loco by Maskelyne.  This has front and end elevations.  The Maskelyne drawings are reproduced to 4mm scale in Russell.  1564 was one built to Broad Gauge and later converted.  Others, of course, were built to "narrow" gauge, converted to Broad Gauge, then converted back!

 

The problem with these is that there will doubtless have been boiler changes and, for saddle tanks, boiler changes tended to mean a change of saddle tank, as the GW tailored these to the boiler types. I doubt, then, that drawing of a convertible in later life as a standard gauge engine would be of that much help, even for matters above the footplate.   

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Now I come to try, I find it surprisingly hard to come at drawings. 

 

I think the Lightmoor Press volumes will probably contain drawings, but only Part 1 has been produced and that's just 1837-40!  Bit of a wait there, then.

 

I don't know if anyone is familiar with Geof Sheppard's Broad Gauge Locomotives?  This seems to be the standard modern reference work, but I am not aware that it runs to drawings. 

 

Broad Gauge Society data sheets seem to be available for rolling stock and infrastructure, but not locomotives.  I suppose, though, that if anyone knows how to find loco drawings, it's those chaps!

 

I suspect you have found This Site It includes drawings of other classes, suggesting that a plan of the saddle tank is not readily available.  It does usefully say in which books the pictures are to be found, however!

 

All of which made me wonder whether it is worth also tracking down drawings in standard gauge condition; I concluded, however, that it probably isn't!

 

I don't know of any showing the original appearance of those built to standard gauge, before conversion to Broad Gauge.

 

There is a late condition drawing of 1564 as a standard gauge loco by Maskelyne.  This has front and end elevations.  The Maskelyne drawings are reproduced to 4mm scale in Russell.  1564 was one built to Broad Gauge and later converted.  Others, of course, were built to "narrow" gauge, converted to Broad Gauge, then converted back!

 

The problem with these is that there will doubtless have been boiler changes and, for saddle tanks, boiler changes tended to mean a change of saddle tank, as the GW tailored these to the boiler types. I doubt, then, that drawing of a convertible in later life as a standard gauge engine would be of that much help, even for matters above the footplate.   

 

 

 

Yes I found that site James.  Useful enough, but drawings remain elusive.

 

I am considering getting a copy of the Lightmoor Press book since I think it would interesting to have, but I do really hope Volume 2 turns up before I get too much older and still have my wits in my head.

 

Geof Sheppard's Broad Gauge Locomotives is on my list, but I'm fairly sure it doesn't have drawings.

 

I would like to join the Broad Gauge Society, but joining and paying a membership sub or even buying any publications from the society is one of those old fashioned esoteric exercises that haven't caught up electronic means of payment which for me as a housebound person with a disabling illness is the only means that I can use.

 

Possibly for some individual engines having a drawing of it in narrow gauge condition might be somewhere to start from, but with the 'convertibles' being merrily converted back and forth as well as possibly receiving some upgraded fittings along the way as well as sometimes a different wheel arrangement I would think that that I'd be very lucky to find anything of use.

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Hi Annie,

 

I have the Geoff Sheapard book, and it doesn't have any plans in it.

The Oakwood press volumn only has side elevations of the locos.

I was a member of the broad gauge society for a couple of years, and they do accept modern payments (otherwise i too would have been stuffed). They have a lot of infomation but its not well organised or easy to get hold of it if you are not on the right side of the planet.

 

Cheers,

Rhys.

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Thanks for that Rhys.  I'll send off an enquiry to the BGS about membership then and see what comes of it.

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The Broad gauge twice yearly magazine has contained certain drawings over the years. If you haven't already found it, you can use the search on this page

 

http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/pubs/pub_broad_sheet.html

 

If you type in 0-4-4 in the search box to the right there seems to be a drawing in issue 65 plus details of a 7mm build. I joined in 2013 so haven't got the 2012 issues unfortunately so can't check if it would be useful.

 

Also some BGS members helped catalogue some archives (I think NRM but could be wrong) a few years ago, they might have found something of use. 

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Thank you very much Charlie.  Perhaps I might have some luck with my search afterall.

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The saddle tank is a "Buffalo" class in its temporary Broad Gauge guise. I'm pretty sure I've seen a drawing (a fairly basic one from memory) of the 35xx in their various forms published in one of the magazines but I can't find my copy of Laleux.

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12 hours ago, Charlie586 said:

The Broad gauge twice yearly magazine has contained certain drawings over the years. If you haven't already found it, you can use the search on this page

 

http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/pubs/pub_broad_sheet.html

 

If you type in 0-4-4 in the search box to the right there seems to be a drawing in issue 65 plus details of a 7mm build. I joined in 2013 so haven't got the 2012 issues unfortunately so can't check if it would be useful.

 

Also some BGS members helped catalogue some archives (I think NRM but could be wrong) a few years ago, they might have found something of use. 

Well I've just e.mailed the membership secretary about joining the society so hopefully it won't be too long before I can get my hands on a copy of issue 65.

 

11 hours ago, wagonman said:

The saddle tank is a "Buffalo" class in its temporary Broad Gauge guise. I'm pretty sure I've seen a drawing (a fairly basic one from memory) of the 35xx in their various forms published in one of the magazines but I can't find my copy of Laleux.

Thanks for that wagonman.  I shall now go Buffalo hunting.

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15 hours ago, wagonman said:

The saddle tank is a "Buffalo" class in its temporary Broad Gauge guise. I'm pretty sure I've seen a drawing (a fairly basic one from memory) of the 35xx in their various forms published in one of the magazines but I can't find my copy of Laleux.

 

Bufalo hunting can prove dangerous and the quarry elusive.

 

It's a GWR saddle tank, and those who go in search of GW saddle and pannier tanks risk their sanity.

 

It is legitimate to call them Bufalos.  Convertibles were only a sub-species of Bufalos, however.

 

1076 class is best avoided.  At the time we are interested in, there were 3 distinct classes, later all lumped under the 1076 designation and known as Bufalos as progressive rebuilding had homoganised them. Originally, the 1076 Class related only to a small number of side tanks!

 

The Convertibles were from two out of the 4 characteristic batches of the third class, the 1134 Class. This class seems to have been originally known as Bufalos.

 

All in all what became known as the 1076 Bufalo Class comprised 266 of which, just 50 out of 210 1134 class were Convertibles. 

 

So, even if later standard gauge drawings have utility, which I rather doubt, not all bufalos will have any Broad Gauge heritage.   This is why I restricted my reference to Maskelyne's drawing of 1564 in later standard gauge days, as this had been built (to Broad Gauge) as one of the convertibles. 

 

The best I can come up with is this:

 

First up, Convertible No. 1237 as built to Broad Gauge. in December 1876.  She stayed Broad Gauge to January 1893. Note the dome position, indicating an S3 boiler and U6 tank (1874-91), with which the class was built.

 

2025813898_IMG_2291-Copy.JPG.63c230c081e85f4b4160bdbeea04a35c.JPG

 

 

Next, Convertible No. 1238 as built to standard gauge. The very next class member, also built in December 1876, but to standard gauge. She was Broad Gauge October 1888 to June 1892.   Note again the dome position, indicating an S3 boiler, with which the class was built. Again, U6 tank.

 

1777863721_IMG_2289-Copy.JPG.b6efa41d79e9c9f2535104a25170f8bd.JPG

 

 

Third, No. 1564, showing another locomotive built to Broad Gauge (in this case in December 1878) but in her later guise as a standard gauge engine. Her dome position indicates a S4 boiler, newer U3 tank. U3 tanks were first fitted in 1895. No. 1564 was fitted with a S4 in December 1899.

 

IMG_2290.JPG.fceee24d8158fe6aba89ec74b69f0acb.JPG

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think 1573 started as standard gauge, but here in its brief BG era (1884-92), and in 0-4-2 mode.

 

1573-small.jpg.fd5719c6b9de5a431dac1f28bfb47269.jpg

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The esoteric mysteries of wanting to be initiated into the Broad Gauge world.  Thank you very much for your clear explanation James.  It seems that the only real option if a neophyte doesn't want to fall into error is to have a good photo of an engine with its wheels spaced as Mr Brunel intended and to stay completely away from the temptation of referring to standard gauge drawing.

 

And thank you too Miss Prism for that nice photo of No 1573

Edited by Annie
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