Milk by rail

[runs as required]

Surprised no one has mentioned the Leek & Manifold and their delivery of standard gauge milk tankers on 3ft gauge transporter wagons from the Manifold valley Ecton and Hartington dairy farming area down to the North Stafford  for onward transit.

That district is still, I believe,  the main area for producing the famous Stilton cheese that was originally sold on the Great North Road.

Edited September 13, 2019 by runs as required
The Hartington creamery closed in 2009 (see Wikilink)

[Karhedron]

On 13/09/2019 at 16:03, keefer said:

I think the tank and brake van are still at the end of the train - note it says the Stafford coaches are to be attached 'front behind Perth-Euston van.'

 

I think you are right. I wonder where the milk tanker originated. At a guess I assume it came from Appleby which was on the S&C line.

[Wickham Green]

On 10/09/2019 at 23:14, Nearholmer said:

The classic SR milk train brake would probably be a 4W stove-fitted (to keep the guard warm) Van C, ..........

While we might think of the 'Van C' as a classic it only appeared shortly before the war - as replacement for assorted pre-grouping vehicles : mainly of LSWR origin in this traffic - and mainly six-wheeled.

[Nearholmer]

The great thing about “classic” is that it is a fairly elastic term, of course. ;-)

[Pint of Adnams]

On the Great Eastern section, the two principal dairies were at North Elmham in Norfolk and Halesworth on the East Suffolk Line in Suffolk. A special working transported the tanks and vans (for churns) between North Elmham and Norwich Thorpe, where the were attached to a Parcels working bound for the London area. A separate Parcels working between Lowestoft and Ipswich transported the tanks from Halesworth to Ipswich, where they were eventually added to the London Parcels working from Norwich. They ended up at Ilford. The empty tanks and vans were returned the following day in Parcels workings.

 

For a time, road tanks were loaded onto the special flats at Stowmarket for conveyance to London.

 

For a number of years there was an odd working between Kittybrewster and Bradford Laisterdyke, again a road tank loaded onto special flat, conveyed in the Up direction on the 'Fish' from Aberdeen and detached at Doncaster to be worked forward to the Bradford Model Milk Co., with a return working the following day. These movements required two tankers and flats, alternating.

 

The LNER Study Group (now LNER Society) produced an Occasional Paper on the LNER traffic, written by Murray Houchin Hughes.

 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Pint of Adnams said:

On the Great Eastern section, the two principal dairies were at North Elmham in Norfolk and Halesworth on the East Suffolk Line in Suffolk. A special working transported the tanks and vans (for churns) between North Elmham and Norwich Thorpe, where the were attached to a Parcels working bound for the London area. A separate Parcels working between Lowestoft and Ipswich transported the tanks from Halesworth to Ipswich, where they were eventually added to the London Parcels working from Norwich. They ended up at Ilford. The empty tanks and vans were returned the following day in Parcels workings.

 

Thanks for the info. I was aware of the dairies but not how the tanks and vans made their way south. Here is a shot of the depot at Ilford in 1977. By this late stage, the all the milk was coming from Wales and the West Country and was tripped around London.

 

[spikey]

On 10/09/2019 at 22:47, Karhedron said:

 ...There were also a few places where milk tankers could be loaded at sidings from road tankers with the creamery being located a short distance away (e.g. Penzance, Dolcoath, Torrington).

 

Sorry, only just found this interesting thread and I now need to know ... how was the pumping done i.e. did the road tankers have the means to pump it up to the rail tanker's filler, or what?

[Karhedron]

5 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Sorry, only just found this interesting thread and I now need to know ... how was the pumping done i.e. did the road tankers have the means to pump it up to the rail tanker's filler, or what?

 

It seems to have varied. Torrington had a shed with pumping equipment.

 

 

Dolcoath sidings was just done at the roadside. I guess that the road tankers must have had some sort of ability to pump the milk and I am fairly sure the rail tankers did not.

 

 

No photos of milk tankers being filled at Penzance unfortunately.

[spikey]

Thank you, sir.  (What kept you, btw?)

 

Gosh, that bottom picture would horrify a few millenials, what with the risk of flies getting in, to say nothing of the risk from passing birds.  It's a wonder any of us old gits are still alive ...

[runs as required]

1 hour ago, spikey said:

...

Gosh, that bottom picture would horrify a few millenials, what with the risk of flies getting in, to say nothing of the risk from passing birds.  It's a wonder any of us old gits are still alive ...

Ten year old grandson staying last Bank Holiday (from south midlands) asked "Why is your milk in a bottle ?"

He certainly did not like the idea of it being delivered to our doorstep in the early hours of the morning - and having to rinse and return the bottles.

"Yeurghh !" he said.

dh

[GWR_Modeller]

I have looked various places including rmweb regarding milk transport and there is a question I have not been able to answer.  Cow and Gate were important manufactureres of dairy products but I have never seen a picture of a Cow and Gate tanker or a

livery description. Has anybody seen one or knows how they moved their products esp in the late 1930s?

Paul

[keefer]

Found a mention in this thread: 

In the second post, Karhedron says: "This suggests that most of the tankers coming out of the Dutchy in the 1940s would have been DMP/Cow and Gate. I haven't seen any photos of Cow and Gate milk tankers, all I know is they had a dark livery with white lettering but I cannot even tell you what colour it was. Dirty silver is always a safe bet but I do not know what proportion of the tankers would have been silver in the period you are modelling."

[Karhedron]

I still haven't found any photos of Cow and Gate tankers but I did find this interesting shot from 1937. This is an aerial view of the Cow and Gate creamery at Johnstown, Carmarthen. If you look closely, you can see an Express Dairy tanker in residence. I had been under the impression that tankers only served their owning dairy in the pre-war years and it was not until the MMB pooling in 1942 that tankers started to wander off their home territory. However this shot shows that this was not necessarily the case.

 

 

The other thing this photo shows is the rake of GW vans and a lone siphon. One possibility is that C&G did not make great use of tankers and dispatched most of produce as processed goods (butter, cheese etc) or in churns. This is just speculation on my part though. It is difficult to extrapolate from just one photo and their is the risk of making unfounded assumptions.

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Karhedron said:

I still haven't found any photos of Cow and Gate tankers but I did find this interesting shot from 1937. This is an aerial view of the Cow and Gate creamery at Johnstown, Carmarthen. If you look closely, you can see an Express Dairy tanker in residence. I had been under the impression that tankers only served their owning dairy in the pre-war years and it was not until the MMB pooling in 1942 that tankers started to wander off their home territory. However this shot shows that this was not necessarily the case.

 

 

The other thing this photo shows is the rake of GW vans and a lone siphon. One possibility is that C&G did not make great use of tankers and dispatched most of produce as processed goods (butter, cheese etc) or in churns. This is just speculation on my part though. It is difficult to extrapolate from just one photo and their is the risk of making unfounded assumptions.

Johnston Creamery specialised in various forms of dried milk: milk powder, 'Formula' and 'Ice Cream' Mix. If local supplies weren't sufficient, then milk might be brought in from elsewhere. I have fond memories of the ice cream mix, as dad's firm did some work there, and he brought some home with him.

 

[melmerby]

On 19/09/2019 at 14:24, spikey said:

Thank you, sir.  (What kept you, btw?)

 

Gosh, that bottom picture would horrify a few millenials, what with the risk of flies getting in, to say nothing of the risk from passing birds.  It's a wonder any of us old gits are still alive ...

The truth is, we aren't really......

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I still haven't found any photos of Cow and Gate tankers

 

 

There is one in Russell's GW Wagons appendix, P 88

It's a GWR diag O58 No. 3027 built 1947 with a dark finish and small white (?) COW & GATE LTD lettering about half way up on LH end of tank as viewed.

 

EDIT

I've been trawling through the aerial photos of C&G dairies with rail connections and the predominant wagon is a van, of various types.

Edited September 23, 2019 by melmerby

[jjnewitt]

Cow & Gate milk tanks:

 

GWR O.52 built 1942

Lot 1672    Numbers 2964-2966

Lot 1676    Numbers 2969-2974

Lot 1677    Numbers 2995-3000

 

GWR O.55 built 1946

Lot 1697    Numbers 1978-83

 

GWR O.58 built 1947 (1st batch) twin tank originally built for Dried Milk Products Co. Ltd (Lostwithiel) but taken over by Cow & Gate

Lot 1717    Numbers 3023-8

Lot 1742    Numbers 3120-3

 

GWR O.63 built 1950

Lot 1757    Numbers 3159-65

 

LMS D.1994 Jenkinson says built 1932 but seems quite early compared to the GWR ones. 

Lot 668      Numbers 44250-2

 

Lots and numbers taken from various sources including the diagrams at the NRM. Possibly not a complete list but giives a good idea. 

 

Cow and Gate became the gate part of Unigate in 1959.

 

I've never seen a Nestle Anglo Swiss tank in pre war livery. Has anyone come across one?

 

Justin

[melmerby]

There is a picture of number 3028 from the same batch in Russell's Coaches Appendix V2 on p242, taken in 1948, same livery as 3027 but by now in BR (W) ownership.

No BR insignia but the G&R on the chassis plate have been blacked out and it just has a white "W" on solebar (oddly left of centre, so not just the "W" from "GW")

 

The ones built for Dried Milk Products can't have been with them for very long as they were built in 1947 and the 1st picture shows 3027 also in 1947 in C&G ownership.

Edited September 23, 2019 by melmerby

[brianusa]

Interesting picture!  Hornby made a lot of tinplate milk tankers, either United Dairies or Nestles.  It was always referred to as Nestles back then by us ordinary folk.  Still is mostly!

     Brian.

[keefer]

Going OT, I still pronounce a lot of stuff the way everybody did in the 70s/80s

As you says Nestlé was Nessels

Certain French cars were 'pyoo-zho' or even 'Pyoo-got', others were 'Renolt' or 'Citrin'

911/928/944 were types of 'Porsh'

Those  expensive trainers were 'Nyke'

It seemed to be only from the '80s onwards, that everyday folk started pronouncing foreign products the correct way (helped no doubt by all the swanky ads and general 'sophistication' they promoted)

 

Slightly more on-topic, I only ever associated Cow & Gate with baby milk (formula), rusks etc.

I have, somewhere, a booklet my mum was given in 1969, when I was born - promoted lots of their products but had spaces to note down the momentous moments of baby's first year.

Rather different to the last, say 20 yrs or so, where the NHS seems to have had a rather (over) zealous approach to breast-feeding

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by keefer

[PatB]

On the subject of Cow & Gate and, possibly, rail connected dairies, I wonder if anyone might be able to identify a location from a rather vague description? Back in the late 1970s, on family trips between the South West and County Durham, one of the landmarks I remember, visible from the road, and in a very urban/industrial area, was a large, traditional brick factory chimney with "COW & GATE" emblazoned vertically upon it. I seem to remember it was somewhere in the West Midlands conurbations but could easily have been as far north as the Sheffield area. It was visible to the north and/or east of what I remember as a fairly complex and possibly elevated stretch of motorway or dual carriageway. Long shot, I know.

 

Long shot, or not, I remember it as quite a substantial chimney and would think that any factory large enough to justify such a structure would also be sufficiently important to be rail connected, at least historically, if not into the 1970s.

[Siberian Snooper]

7 hours ago, keefer said:

Going OT, I still pronounce a lot of stuff the way everybody did in the 70s/80s

As you says Nestlé was Nessels

 

 

 

 

The ads were always for the Nessels Milky Bar Kid.

 

 

[jcm@gwr]

My dad always said 'Such-ard' chocolate!

[PatB]

A family friend worked for Nestles until a few years ago. She reckoned that, as an employee, pronouncing the company name Nessels was a disciplinary matter. She didn't appear to be joking either.

[MAURICE040947]

Changing the topic off pronunciation and back to tanks. Can anyone here tell me what this livery is, (apologies if this has been raised before).