Choice of goods trains for layout

[Robert Stokes]

The layout I am building has storage loops which can hold 12 complete trains. Four of these will be up and down express passenger and local stopping passenger trains. There is room for eight goods trains. I already have - (1) train of box vans, (2) coal train, (3) train of china clay wagons, (4) train of tarmac tanks, (5) cattle van train, 6)  train of cement wagons. This gives a variety of wagon types to watch as the trains go by.

 

This leaves two vacancies. What other trains would be suitable for a layout set in the late 1950s (and possibly early 1960s) and depicting a station on the Settle and Carlisle line? I have wondered about a pick-up goods, but what would it typically include? I have also thought bout a train of milk tanks. Any other ideas?

 

Thank you for any help.

 

Robert

[montyburns56]

There's a limestone quarry on the S&C so......

[Steamport Southport]

Most trains in that era would be still be mixed rather than trains all of one type of wagon. So I would go with at least one of those.

 

There is also the train consisting of non passenger carrying coaching stock such as parcels.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66383-modelling-a-traditional-parcels-train/#comments

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Aire Head]

Wasn't aware of China Clay travelling by the S&C?

 

At the time most goods trains  would be mixed rather than block workings.

 

Local goods trains on the S&C at the time you want to depict would be definitely coal, extremely likely to be cattle. Vans and general opens as well carrying whatever someone needs delivering

[Fat Controller]

18 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Wasn't aware of China Clay travelling by the S&C?

 

At the time most goods trains  would be mixed rather than block workings.

 

Local goods trains on the S&C at the time you want to depict would be definitely coal, extremely likely to be cattle. Vans and general opens as well carrying whatever someone needs delivering

In later years, china clay did travel on the S&C in wagon loads to Scottish papermills; I don't know when this traffic started. Other traffic might include wagons, of various types, carrying steel products, military traffic on Warflats and wells, and Lowmacs

[DavidB-AU]

These are more typical of a goods train on the S&C in the 1950s.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/9413954193/
 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/8634707074/

 

If your layout is set south of Garsdale you could also get shorter trains off the Wensleydale line.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thanoz/4628955944/

 

And this one is from 1967 but doesn't look much different from the 50s.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/monochrome_trains/4595963003/

 

Cheers

David

[The Johnster]

The obvious omission is the mixed freight, with a fitted head of general merchandise vehicles and a raft of minerals in front of the brake van.  Your vans and presflos could be split and combined to serve in the fitted head portions of such trains, leaving room for steel billets or bars on bogie bolsters, and a through parcels in each direction.

[Kris]

How about a breakdown train?

 

[Robert Stokes]

Thank you for the replies. They have been helpful.

 

I'm not necessarily going to stick rigidly to traffic on the S&C but by and large I will.

 

Robert

[sb67]

My vote would be for a parcels train or a PW train would be an interesting build.

Steve.

[malcolmcelyn]

It seems to me that mixed goods trains generally had more vans than opens. Obviously, mineral trains are all open, fish trains might be all vans, but general freight and even pick-up goods did seem to have a balance of more vans to opens.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, malcolmcelyn said:

It seems to me that mixed goods trains generally had more vans than opens. Obviously, mineral trains are all open, fish trains might be all vans, but general freight and even pick-up goods did seem to have a balance of more vans to opens.

There was a progressive change in provision, beginning in the 1930s, and accelerating post-war, from open wagons to vans for merchandise use. It saved time and effort in sheeting loads, provided better weather protection, and deterred casual pilfering as the ungodly couldn't see what was inside.

 

Comparing pictures from (say) 1950 and 1960, taken in the same area, will reveal the degree of change, as well as a substantial reduction in unfitted merchandise vehicles, be they opens or vans, brought about by BR's intensive addition of AVB to suitable big four vehicles through the fifties.

 

By the early 1960's, use of open wagons became increasingly skewed to carrying loads that were difficult or impossible to put into vans. More "normal" items would still be loaded, but often only if no van was available on the day.

 

John

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[DCB]

My understanding is the S&C had a preponderance of fitted freights and or part fitted freights until the WCML effectively banned unfitted freight in the post steam era what was left was diverted to the S&C.  There were fast freight turns from Birmingham (Saltley) to Carlisle, I have an idea the "Condor" went this way.  Pick up freights would have run but not your GWR BLT pick up with a tankie and three wagons but something like a 4F.   It always difficult to represent a full size freight, maybe 40 wagons when most of us are limited to 20 or less

Coal would have been rare with Newcastle and Cumbria coalfields nearer to Carlisle etc.

In steam days fast freights were timed up to 60 mph and there are tales of much more, when flat bottom track and diesels came speeds were slashed to somewhere round 45mph which handed the traffic to the road carriers.

Loads of vans, 5 plank opens etc, not so many specialised vehicles and very few block trains.    I try to mix up my trains so while basically similar consists the wagons do change, a fitted van will run in on a fitted freight and depart as part of a pick up without its brakes connected up, but without some sorting sidings this can be difficult.

[The Johnster]

This is substantially correct, David, but the reason was not so much the end of steam but the removal of catch points from the WCML route, which meant that any goods train that was not a completely fitted throughout class 6 was required to divert over the S & C; if it had a brake van it was not allowed over Shap.  Full length was 60 standard 10' wheelbase wagons not including the loco and van, dictated by the length of refuge sidings and lay be loops.  

 

By the post-steam era, and for the last few years of the steam era for that matter, a typical part fitted class 7 or 8 freight train had a 'fitted head' of vacuum fitted wagons behind the loco with the vacuum brakes connected; this would consist of general merchandise vans and a few opens, with the rear consisting usually of a raft of unfitted mineral wagons.  Block coal trains tended to have smaller fitted heads and be class 8s.  

 

The fully fitted Condor ran via the Midland and the S & C. to 60mph timings.  It called at Leeds and Carlisle, and because of the unreliability of the MetroVicks rostered to it often featured the replacement of one or both of the MetroVicks with a steam engine, 9Fs, Jubilees, and Black 5s being typical.  Sheds en route such as Wellingborough, Leicester, or Holbeck learned to have a steam loco up to pressure and prepped 'in case'.  A single 9F could run the train to time.  There was also a Saltley 9F turn for a Birmingham-Carlisle fully fitted 60mph service that ran via Derby and Leeds, calling at Leeds; this train was considered unworkable by manual firing and 3 mechanical stoker fitted 9Fs were used.  

 

The 45mph speed limit for 9 and 10 foot wheelbase vehicles came about because of a series of derailments due to short wheelbase wagons developing an oscillation that sometimes developed dangerously, culminating in the Thirsk collision in 1967 that destroyed DP2.  The reason was held to be that the massive fall in traffic that occurred during the 60s especially post Beeching allowed the trains to run longer distances at speed without being checked and the maintenance regime was unable to cope.  Overall journey times for freight traffic at this period were falling as trains had clearer runs and the drop to 45mph did not have much effect on this; I certainly wouldn't agree that the traffic was handed to the road carriers because of this.  Certainly not compared to the effect of closing so many local goods depots which made road transport much more attractive for general merchandise traffic, concurrent with the development of the motorway system, and the use of the 40' artic.  That it coincided with the end of steam was coincidental, though it is true that the extra power of diesels sometimes meant that the drivers were unaware that they were pulling a derailed wagon for some distance.  

Edited September 22, 2019 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

Motor worked points capable of use as catch points were available as part of the Carnforth - Carlisle resignalling work for electrification.  The main reason for removing partially fitted freights from that part of the WCMl was probably as much down to line capacity and the end of banking engines as it was to anything else.  There were certainly no physical limitations - apart from the distance between points able to be used as catch points - to prevent them operating over the route.

[TheSignalEngineer]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Motor worked points capable of use as catch points were available as part of the Carnforth - Carlisle resignalling work for electrification.  The main reason for removing partially fitted freights from that part of the WCMl was probably as much down to line capacity and the end of banking engines as it was to anything else.  There were certainly no physical limitations - apart from the distance between points able to be used as catch points - to prevent them operating over the route.

One of the reasons for removing spring catch points on the line was the provision of Facing and Trailing Emergency Crossovers at regular intervals to facilitate single line working for maintenance purposes. At the beginning of a possession any catch points had to be closed and clipped, then at the end of the possession unclipped and opened. Quite a time consuming process out on the fells especially in winter and on at least one occasion a set got missed.  (see https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=458 )

The train Describers at Carlisle were programmed to give an alarm when a Class 7, 8 or 9 train entered certain sections so that the Signalman could apply local instructions for setting points behind it to act as catch points and to hold any following train until the unfitted train was over the top of the gradient.

[John M]

No one appears to have mentioned the Long Meg-Widnes Anhydrite trains that operated during the 1950s & 60s, steam motive power over the S&C included Stanier 8F & BR Std 9F. 

 

http://www.settleandcarlisle.co.uk/downloads/content/additional/files/Long Meg shunting_v5.pdf

 

[Fat Controller]

I wonder why one half of the anhydrite train is sheeted, whilst the other isn't? 

I remember the spate of freight derailments in the 1960s; at the time, I was just starting to take advantage of 'Neath Division's' MYSTEXs. It was commonplace to see odd wagons pushed down embankments in the more remote areas. I recollect that there were several causes; Continuously Welded Rail buckling during the summers, and Cyclic Top/ Hunting amongst them. Modern Railways used to have arcane articles about something called 'wheel-rail interaction'. The CWR problem was obviated by building-up the ballast shoulder; the wheel/rail problems took longer to resolve.

The Thirsk derailment, and subsequent collision, wasn't down to the short- wheelbase (they were  15' wheelbase, which seemed to be the norm for 4-wheel wagons carrying bulk products) but suspension efficiency being compromised by a build-up of cement powder.

[Rivercider]

Regarding clay traffic from the south west. Much of it was traditionally waterborne, via coastal shipping, then canal, particularly to the Potteries, though there was rail traffic to other locations around the network. 'The Potters' Field' by LTC Rolt says that in 1964 BR made a concerted effort to recapture clay traffic to rail, and introduced the clayliner service from Cornwall to the Potteries in 1965.  

 

cheers

[Edwin_m]

On 22/09/2019 at 16:03, The Johnster said:

Overall journey times for freight traffic at this period were falling as trains had clearer runs and the drop to 45mph did not have much effect on this; I certainly wouldn't agree that the traffic was handed to the road carriers because of this.  Certainly not compared to the effect of closing so many local goods depots which made road transport much more attractive for general merchandise traffic, concurrent with the development of the motorway system, and the use of the 40' artic.  

I'd say that the advent of reliable trucks and reasonable roads were important factors but the closure of goods depots was more a consequence than a cause.  A rail service that often took an extra day shuffle a van a few miles to the closest depot, often for trans-shipment to road for final origin/destination, was never going to survive against a truck that could take the goods directly to the customer with no sitting around on the way.  BR was basically caught on the hop by the rapid demise of wagonload freight and was guilty more of investing in facilities that were no longer needed (hump yards etc as well as depots), not of closing them when there was still viable traffic on offer.  

Edited September 25, 2019 by Edwin_m

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 23/09/2019 at 00:38, John M said:

No one appears to have mentioned the Long Meg-Widnes Anhydrite trains that operated during the 1950s & 60s, steam motive power over the S&C included Stanier 8F & BR Std 9F. 

The page by George Woods on Flickr has some other S&C freight in 1966/68

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52467480@N08/albums/72157629255295712/page2

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

I'd say that the advent of reliable trucks and reasonable roads were important factors but the closure of goods depots was more a consequence than a cause.  A rail service that often took an extra day shuffle a van a few miles to the closest depot, often for trans-shipment to road for final origin/destination, was never going to survive against a truck that could take the goods directly to the customer with no sitting around on the way.  BR was basically caught on the hop by the rapid demise of wagonload freight and was guilty more of investing in facilities that were no longer needed (hump yards etc as well as depots), not of closing them when there was still viable traffic on offer.  

There were various reasons behind the overall decline of railborne freight but although road competition was increasing after the war the real crunch on general merchandise came with the big ASLE&F strike in 1955 which drove away a lot of regular customers to road hauliers who were happy to accept them provided they signed long term contracts.

 

The other problems were the spiral of decline as traffic was lost and thus services were reduced which hit transits for remaining customers and the Common Carrier obligation which left the railway with a lot of unprofitable traffic while the profitable stuff from the same customers went to road hauliers.   For example some regular customers used the railway to return empty packing cases which they had sent out loaded to customers using road transport and the road hauliers weren't interested in carrying empties because it meant a lower rate.  The final nail in the coffin was the abolition of C Licence road haulage restrictions c.1965 which had prevented companies operating their own vehicle fleets from carrying goods for other companies - removal of the restriction immediately allowed cost reductions in their operation as they could now go out looking for back loads which effectively turned them into general hauliers.

 

The railway simply fought a battle of gradual enforced contraction in what was basically a shrinking market for what it had to offer and was never, ever, going to be able to compete for a lot of what was lost.

[Edwin_m]

On 20/09/2019 at 00:50, DavidB-AU said:

There's a prototype for everything, even using an O gauge bridge on a N gauge layout...

Edited September 26, 2019 by Edwin_m

[unravelled]

A few pictures from 1965-67, which might hrlp for variety. I haven't bothered with mainly van trains which have been mentioned before, nor with the mineral trains.

 

First   from 1965, milk as tail traffic on a stopping service,   Garsdale

 

 

PW(?) train at Dent, 1966

 

Opens and vehicle flats, Dent 1966

 

 

Presflos, 1966

 

 

Ais Gill 1966

 

 

Not all Black 5s and 8Fs, 1967

 

 

 

I hope these are of some help.

 

Dave

 

[Robert Stokes]

A belated thank you for all the help.