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28XX

Imaginary Locomotives

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I was watching some footage of UTA workings in the 1960s and saw the ex-NCC WTs get up to quite some speed, so I wondered if the Irish gauge was helping in that regard.

 

A WT is this 

 

NCC_WT_Class_loco_no_4.JPG

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It wouldn't be doing any harm!  The wider the gauge, the lower the centre of gravity will be for an engine of otherwise similar dimensions and proportions; I suppose you would compare the UTA WT 2-6-4Ts to the mainland Fowler locos.

 

The problem is held to be the major factor in the Sevenoaks derailment in 1927, but identical locomotives were trialled at over 80mph on the Great Northern section of the ECML and found to run perfectly satisfactorily; Gresley, who was on the footplate, said as much, and these were 3 cylinder locos to boot.  The Southern had already decided within hours of the accident that the locos were unsafe and rebuilt them as 2-6-0 tender locos, though, and never built another 2-6-4 tank loco.  LMS designed 2-6-4Ts were built for the Southern Region and used on fast trains after nationalisation, and the BR standard version of the design was designed and built at Brighton; none of these locos ever gave any trouble with ride quality.

 

It may be that the Sevenoaks derailment was more to do with poor track conditions rather than an unstable loco, but this is ground that has been covered before by people more knowledgeable than me.  

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It wouldn't be doing any harm!  The wider the gauge, the lower the centre of gravity will be for an engine of otherwise similar dimensions and proportions; I suppose you would compare the UTA WT 2-6-4Ts to the mainland Fowler locos.

 

The problem is held to be the major factor in the Sevenoaks derailment in 1927, but identical locomotives were trialled at over 80mph on the Great Northern section of the ECML and found to run perfectly satisfactorily; Gresley, who was on the footplate, said as much, and these were 3 cylinder locos to boot.  The Southern had already decided within hours of the accident that the locos were unsafe and rebuilt them as 2-6-0 tender locos, though, and never built another 2-6-4 tank loco.  LMS designed 2-6-4Ts were built for the Southern Region and used on fast trains after nationalisation, and the BR standard version of the design was designed and built at Brighton; none of these locos ever gave any trouble with ride quality.

 

It may be that the Sevenoaks derailment was more to do with poor track conditions rather than an unstable loco, but this is ground that has been covered before by people more knowledgeable than me.  

Hi Johnster,

 

All of the 2-6-2 and 2-6-4 tanks that I have ever ridden have a much more stable ride than the 2-6-0 tender versions of the same irrespective of tank ullage. The most unstable ride as far as 2-6-0 types are concerned was the Crab 42765 at Bury which was very lively at certain speeds.

All locomotives with side control trucks at each end need to have differential arrangements so as not to induce oscillations. In the case of LMS/BR 2-6-4 tanks this is via different spring rates due to the different axle loadings of the trucks, in the case of the LMS/BR 2-6-2 tanks the leading truck is sprung and the trailing truck is of the swing link type.

 

I'm not sure of the the Sevenoaks derailment but there was on derailment on the Southern involving a tank engine where the track was blamed for it was ballasted with the rounded shingle pebbles from Romney Marsh compounded by the ratio of the links of the swing link truck.

 

Gibbo.

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10 hours ago, scots region said:

I was watching some footage of UTA workings in the 1960s and saw the ex-NCC WTs get up to quite some speed, so I wondered if the Irish gauge was helping in that regard.

 

A WT is this 

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/NCC_WT_Class_loco_no_4.JPG

Their standard gauge cousins, LMS and BR 2-6-4Ts were all highly regarded for their ability to get along when required, plenty of reports of 80mph + on longer runs. Good exemplars of the old saw: 'if it looks right, it is right'.

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If this has been covered before, please accept my apologies. Can anyone direct me to a drawing of the propose Stanier 4-4-0 - there was an outline drawing in a magazine I now cannot find. Has anyone got a drawing?

 

Thanks in advance

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11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It wouldn't be doing any harm!  The wider the gauge, the lower the centre of gravity will be for an engine of otherwise similar dimensions and proportions; I suppose you would compare the UTA WT 2-6-4Ts to the mainland Fowler locos.

 

The problem is held to be the major factor in the Sevenoaks derailment in 1927, but identical locomotives were trialled at over 80mph on the Great Northern section of the ECML and found to run perfectly satisfactorily; Gresley, who was on the footplate, said as much, and these were 3 cylinder locos to boot.  The Southern had already decided within hours of the accident that the locos were unsafe and rebuilt them as 2-6-0 tender locos, though, and never built another 2-6-4 tank loco.  LMS designed 2-6-4Ts were built for the Southern Region and used on fast trains after nationalisation, and the BR standard version of the design was designed and built at Brighton; none of these locos ever gave any trouble with ride quality.

 

It may be that the Sevenoaks derailment was more to do with poor track conditions rather than an unstable loco, but this is ground that has been covered before by people more knowledgeable than me.  

It's not correct that the Southern never built another 2-6-4T, the W Class was introduced in 1931. However, they were not generally used for passenger service (and trials showed them to be very rough riding) - source SEMG. Apparently the trials were between Tonbridge and Ashford and Victoria and Tunbridge Wells West in 1948.

 

 

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Yes i'd forgotten the W's and should have said that the Southern never built another 2-6-4T for passenger work, which was perhaps hobbling itself a bit as a big 2-6-4T with a decent turn of speed is ideally suited to much of it's Central and Eastern sections' outer suburban work.  Of course, this was itself steadily being electrified which took the pressure off a bit.  The W's were used for transfer freights from the big marshalling yards, and were indeed noted for rough riding at speed.  

 

Post nationalisation, 2-6-4Ts made a big comeback on the Central and Eastern sections with no problems resulting from the decision to use them, again mostly being ousted by the expanding 3rd rail network.  In view of Gibbo's observation, it would be interesting to hear if the Rivers were better riders after rebuilds as tender moguls.  Some were 3 cylinder locos and these should have been better in this respect than their 2 cylinder sisters.  But there cannot be many people still living in a position to comment!

Edited by The Johnster
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2 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

If anyone is visiting the Science Museum, there are a lot of diagrams of proposed locos in the E.S. Cox papers.

 

https://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/documents/aa110092359

 

Cheers

David

Hi David,

 

Interesting link you have there, I recognise a lot of the proposed diagrams from reading both volumes of E.S. Cox's of Locomotive Panorama.

 

Is there any way to view the drawings listed on line ?

 

Gibbo.

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I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

fullsizeoutput_31c6.jpeg.ca50f14465afe04a59080a787d70a27f.jpeg

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Continuing my fetish of creating Mikados using an 8f chassis under express passenger locomtives, here's the GWR King boilered version. I think the trailing axle is from an A4, so I added a couple of details from the King lead axle to Swindonise it a little. Quite what shape the firebox is following all that I don't know! (original base loco(s) left in for comparison)

 

1725277142_GWRMikadoKing-8f.jpg.7f48187e5ec6c6afe0b63c73d4ef6e60.jpg

 

That got me thinking, I prefer my turn of the century GWR style, so could the same be achieved by smooshing together a 28xx and a Saint?

 

781627617_GWRMikadoSaint-2800.jpg.8fc3b2105909c5652289e86e1b7ed314.jpg

 

 

I've been very restrained, I didn't give it TGBs tender!

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23 minutes ago, Corbs said:

I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_02/fullsizeoutput_31c6.jpeg.ca50f14465afe04a59080a787d70a27f.jpeg

Hi Corbs,

 

A quality read, I do hope you have both volumes !

 

Gibbo.

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22 minutes ago, Corbs said:

I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_02/fullsizeoutput_31c6.jpeg.ca50f14465afe04a59080a787d70a27f.jpeg

 

It was either on this occasion or a similar one at Marylebone that Riddles, in charge of demonstrating the Black 5s to the livery committee, pulled a flanker on them by having a spare Black 5 'specially prepared' in LNWR lined black and calling it up at a suitable juncture.  BR's mixed traffic livery consequently became LNWR lined black, IMHO a wise choice that suited every loco it was ever applied to.

 

Not sure I can commend anyone who regards LNER apple green, a rather gaudy fairground livery at best, as acceptable when condemning malachite, just as bad in my view, in the same sentence.  

 

Puts on tin hat and retires to nuclear fallout shelter until the dust settles...

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14 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Corbs,

 

A quality read, I do hope you have both volumes !

 

Gibbo.

It was your mention that prompted me to order a few from second hand stockists online! Unfortunately Vol.II has arrived first so I await the other in anticipation...

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4 minutes ago, Corbs said:

It was your mention that prompted me to order a few from second hand stockists online! Unfortunately Vol.II has arrived first so I await the other in anticipation...

Hi Corbs,

 

Volume I. deals with E.S. Cox's apprenticeship at Horwich and his involvement in the testing of LMS locomotive types in the 1920's through to the volume production of standard LMS types of which most were to Stanier designs.

Locomotive testing involved efficiency testing of extant types and trials of new ideas to either improve old locomotives or the development of new ones.

 

Hang in there, best to read them in the order of writing.

 

Another interesting book is, "Memoirs of a Locomotive Engineer" by Edgar J Larkin who trained underr the Midland at Derby and latterly a contemporary of E.S. Cox.

 

Gibbo.

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49 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

It was either on this occasion or a similar one at Marylebone that Riddles, in charge of demonstrating the Black 5s to the livery committee, pulled a flanker on them by having a spare Black 5 'specially prepared' in LNWR lined black and calling it up at a suitable juncture.  BR's mixed traffic livery consequently became LNWR lined black, IMHO a wise choice that suited every loco it was ever applied to.

 

Not sure I can commend anyone who regards LNER apple green, a rather gaudy fairground livery at best, as acceptable when condemning malachite, just as bad in my view, in the same sentence.  

 

Puts on tin hat and retires to nuclear fallout shelter until the dust settles...

Hi Johnster,

 

In Vol. II. I like the translation of the Russian graffiti !

 

Gibbo.

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1 hour ago, Corbs said:

I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_02/fullsizeoutput_31c6.jpeg.ca50f14465afe04a59080a787d70a27f.jpeg

 

Probably worth correcting the quote in the book.

 

The LMS had already discontinued red livery for locomotives so it's doubtful they would have put a red locomotive forward. LMS livery was already lined black for passenger locomotives and unlined for freight.

 

Both Ivatt and Riddles were LNWR men so they wouldn't be advocating Midland red.

 

 

Worth looking in Big Four In Colour as most of the locomotives in the experimental liveries are pictured.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Four-Colour-1935-50/dp/0906899621/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1549919268&sr=1-1&keywords=big+four+in+colour

 

 

Jason

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4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Both Ivatt and Riddles were LNWR men so they wouldn't be advocating Midland red.

Jason

Riddles was very much a "Black Paint" man.

He's on record as having said about that loco parade that he managed to get almost all locos painted black.

It's likely that if he had had his way all passenger locos would have been in a version of LNWR lined black and the rest plain black.

There is a passage in Essery & Jenkinson's "LMS Locomotives Vol 5" also recalling that parade and Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR black Class 5

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On 06/02/2019 at 23:17, rockershovel said:

 

More to the point, narrow gauge engines tend to be slow. The Davies, Metcalfe 2-6-2T at the VoR are 25 tons, over 8’ wide on 2’ gauge and have tanks which completely conceal the boiler, but they seem to manage well enough. 

Didn't realise they were 8ft wide! That's almost standard gauge width.

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Riddles was very much a "Black Paint" man.

He's on record as having said about that loco parade that he managed to get almost all locos painted black.

It's likely that if he had had his way all passenger locos would have been in a version of LNWR lined black and the rest plain black.

There is a passage in Essery & Jenkinson's "LMS Locomotives Vol 5" also recalling that parade and Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR black Class 5

The devil in me so wants to see a couple of preserved Black 5's done out in Apple green, GWR green and Malachite green, if only to see the reactions of the purists. I think Caledonian blue would have suited a Black 5.

I think the Germans got it right (as always) with matt black boilers etc and red wheels.

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14 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

The devil in me so wants to see a couple of preserved Black 5's done out in Apple green, GWR green and Malachite green, if only to see the reactions of the purists. I think Caledonian blue would have suited a Black 5.

 

As long as it is only lined out on one side (the other side is plain) and numbered in the range M4762-4 (4762 was SR Malachite, 4763 was LNER Apple Green & 4764 was GWR Middle Chrome Green)

Unfortunately the number of Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR liveried example is not recorded

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I am impressed with all the BR choices except the Caledonian blue for 8P locos; LNWR lined black looked good on everything that wore it (including City of Truro's brief appearance for April Fool's that time) and so did GW lined green for passenger locos.

 

My personal favourite livery for steam locomotives is Maunsell period Southern olive green with yellow lining, despite my GW leanings.  

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2 hours ago, melmerby said:

As long as it is only lined out on one side (the other side is plain) and numbered in the range M4762-4 (4762 was SR Malachite, 4763 was LNER Apple Green & 4764 was GWR Middle Chrome Green)

Unfortunately the number of Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR liveried example is not recorded

 

The 'LNWR' liveried example was 5292, black, lined red with white lettering, according to 'British Railways Locomotives 1948.'  (OPC ISBN 0860934667).  A couple of months later, as 45292, it was in full LNWR livery at a display at Marylebone.

 

Moxy

Edited by Moxy
spelling mistook

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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I am impressed with all the BR choices except the Caledonian blue for 8P locos; LNWR lined black looked good on everything that wore it (including City of Truro's brief appearance for April Fool's that time) and so did GW lined green for passenger locos.

 

My personal favourite livery for steam locomotives is Maunsell period Southern olive green with yellow lining, despite my GW leanings.  

Personally, I like the Caledonian blue. Wasn't a darker shade used as well?

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I know topic is drifting but I couldn't resist posting these again after @The Johnster mentioned it. 

 

Handsome!

pictures-1.jpg.3cffa669cef40ba6bbef6a5f6ca9eb67.jpg

post-7179-0-98909600-1332352016.jpg.9785fed488120e8eba97a06c6be7c3b8.jpg

 

 

Also reminds me of Frappington Jct's rebuild of a Bachmann 'Emily' into a BR-era Stirling Single

DSC_0411.JPG

 

 

Edited by Corbs
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