Second Hand Hornby Locos - Are They Worth Buying?

[Steamport Southport]

23 hours ago, kevinlms said:

That would be Vivien Thompson and her book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Period-Railway-Modelling-Vivien-Thompson/dp/0900586370

 

I never did buy a copy as most of her work was of Eastbourne & the trains around at the time.

 

An exception to the rule, where the male half builds a model railway and the female shows little interest. Almost unique!

 

Her husband made all the locomotives and rolling stock though....

 

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

40 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Her husband made all the locomotives and rolling stock though....

 

 

 

Jason

Did he? I was under the impression that there was an article about an EMU by Vivien, but I don't know where it is.

 

Edit to add.

 

Found some EMU sets built by Vivien, in various MRC in the early 70s.

It's late noe, so I'll look then up in the next day or so.

Edited October 15, 2019 by kevinlms

[Steamport Southport]

Try the original articles from the mid 1960s to about 1972. She was mainly an architectural and scenic modeller. She may have built some stock, but I think the husband was responsible for the majority.

 

There is a comment about "husband's name which escapes me (possibly Peter)" has now replaced all the K's kit Terriers with the correct locomotives as they were never seen in Eastbourne at the date. Also that he had repainted all the Stroudley liveried locomotives into the correct livery as it was meant to be based about 1910.

 

I don't think there was any second hand RTR on it though....

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I didn't mention kits. The thread is about buying cheap second hand RTR after all.

 

I was talking about people buying cheap models and then spending good money on replacing parts which are exactly the same as the bits that have broke. Things such as Mainline or Airfix where the chassis has disintegrated. Most of the time you are just throwing good money after bad. 

 

 

Jason

 

Jason

 

Two things, firstly I think most will agree with you on about some of older but less reliable models, things like the old 0-6-0 chassis makes them bomb proof

 

Secondly, I think Northmore was referring about the added benefit let alone the pleasure of learning how to both repair and service locos, rather than suggesting going kit building.

 

However don't forget a lot of early whitemetal kits used either the Hornby Jinty or Hornby Dublo R1 chassis. Now these kit built locos also can be bought quite cheaply and will still give years of sterling service.

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Did he? I was under the impression that there was an article about an EMU by Vivien, but I don't know where it is.

 

Edit to add.

 

Found some EMU sets built by Vivien, in various MRC in the early 70s.

It's late now, so I'll look then up in the next day or so.

OK, here are some articles. All are listed as being written by Vivien. So not just buildings and scenery.

 

Modelling S.R. bogie Brake vans  MRC 1974 May

An S.R. Push-Pull set  MRC 1974 June

Modelling 4mm scale trams  MRC 1973 September

Modelling 2NOL`s  MRC 1974 July

Modelling a 2BIL Model Railways 1972 December

Building a 5BEL (Southern Electric) Model Railways 1973 April

Building a 4COR (Southern Electric)  Model Railways 1973 June

BR/S.R. De-Icing Unit for 4mm - Southern Electric Stock  Model Railways 1873 September

Building a pair of LNWR full Brakes  Model Railways  1973 December

 

[RedGemAlchemist]

My freelance stuff is nearly all made using used Triang and Hornby stuff and it all works fine. Depends what you're after. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by RedGemAlchemist

[Steamport Southport]

On 16/10/2019 at 01:43, kevinlms said:

OK, here are some articles. All are listed as being written by Vivien. So not just buildings and scenery.

 

Modelling S.R. bogie Brake vans  MRC 1974 May

An S.R. Push-Pull set  MRC 1974 June

Modelling 4mm scale trams  MRC 1973 September

Modelling 2NOL`s  MRC 1974 July

Modelling a 2BIL Model Railways 1972 December

Building a 5BEL (Southern Electric) Model Railways 1973 April

Building a 4COR (Southern Electric)  Model Railways 1973 June

BR/S.R. De-Icing Unit for 4mm - Southern Electric Stock  Model Railways 1873 September

Building a pair of LNWR full Brakes  Model Railways  1973 December

 

 

Sorry I missed this. But that's all well after Eastbourne which was 1960s and LBSC. I was mainly referring to the scratchbuilt locomotives and LBSC carriages.

 

I take it they were mainly plasticard or cut and shuts?

 

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

On 27/10/2019 at 11:40, RedGemAlchemist said:

My freelance stuff is nearly all made using used Triang and Hornby stuff and it all works fine. Depends what you're after. 

 

The older chassis were used quite extensively 40+ years ago to motorise many whitemetal kits, many of these kits are still giving sterling service on layouts as are the RTR locos. These same chassis  as RGA has stated equally lend themselves for kit bashing.

 

Many locos do suffer in both the detail and accuracy departments, also there have been developments in motor technology. But as far as longevity, repairability and affordability are concerned, many believe they are worth both buying and keeping

[The Johnster]

I'd agree with John above about early motors, the open frame X04 and similar that drive through brass worm and cog gears.  These chassis are bombproof reliable and simple, as are similar ones from Hornby Dublo and 1960s Trix.  There is little that can go wrong with them and what little that is can be easily fixed, and performance is good but a little fast and 'whizzy'.  This can be cured with Romford/Markits gears.  They are also powerful.  The down side is that the axle spacing is off for many locos and there is no brake or other detail below the running plates; in fact, the gears are often visible.

 

But there was a period, starting in the late 70s and lasting for 20 odd years, when the desire to include details in cabs and provide daylight beneath boilers resulted in the adoption of 'pancake' motors; these were smaller and could usually be fitted inside fireboxes.  But in order to develop sufficient power (and I'd argue that some of them still didn't), they had to run at high rpm, and be geared down through spur gears.  These were often plastic or nylon and prone to splitting and wear.  Diesel or Electric outline locos had these pancake motors above one a power bogie at one end, dmus had them in guard's compartments, and steam outline locos with tenders often had them driving the tenders; it looked very odd to me to see a tender pushing a loco around...

 

As they still didn't develop enough power, locos with these pancakes often had traction tyres as well, further compromising reliability and performance.  Airfix, Lima, Mainline, and Triang Hornby (including many later Hornby locos in red boxes), and were all guilty of using these abominations, and on some locos they failed to keep the cabs clear (Mainline 56xx, 57xx, Lima J50, 94xx).  It was common on tender drive locos to have the final drive spur gears horribly visible churning away beneath the tender.

 

The current generation of models has largely eschewed this practice and reverted to worm and cog drive, but with can motors rather than the old open frame X04 types.  The can motors are mass produced for general use, not specifically for model railways, in the Far East and are small enough to hide inside the locos while preserving cab space and under-boiler daylight, and generate much more power at lower rpm than the pancakes.  They are fully enclosed and cannot be maintained; if one wears out you replace it with a new one, but they generally give many years service even with high mileage frequently used models.  I'm the fat side of 65 and expect mine to outlast me.

 

So, I would advise the OP to avoid models from the 'pancake era'.  Suitable newer models are distinguished by NEM couplings, and the older ones, which are from his pov ideal because they are usually cheap on 'Bay, by lack of detail below the running plates; brakes, guard irons, and the like.  If this crudity is acceptable, and you are prepared to replace the wheels of early Triang models with newer ones so that the locos will run on code 100 track, fine.  But if you want detail and good slow running, recent models are the way to go and they will cost more.

[hayfield]

I think like all things in life, to a degree its buyer beware, irrespective of whether its new or second hand. If its cheap and it works then clearly its good value. Buying a decent new loco at a great discount is worthwhile, but uncommon. buying said loco second hand will often be even cheaper and quite often these turn out to be in excellent condition

 

But do keep an open mind other bargains can be sought

 

 

For some reason as soon as the words kit built chassis is added to a RTR loco quite often buyers disappear. ( I expect had the 2 been sold separately the seller would have made much more) Its a great runner and as it has flangeless wheels will work just as well on set track. For what it lacks in the brake gear department it makes up with performance owing to the can motor, decent wheels and modern motor mount

 

 

This one is even better 3F with a Comet chassis (£20) Romford/Markit wheels axles etc (£45) 1015 motor £23) gears and flywheel (£10) Such a sweet runner with added weight at one end of the chassis, runs like a dream and the flywheel smooths out the running. If wanted the cab details could be reinstated as the motor fits into the boilers and smokebox and there is a white blemish on the smokebox.  Must have cost the builder £100 at today's prices. For me sadly the wrong region (was going to fit it into a whitemetal kit that took a Jinty chassis, but as I am now migrating to EM gauge its too much trouble to convert it.  I will either sell it on or just keep the wheels motor and gears and sell the body and chassis

 

But this proves second hand locos are worth a second look and these Bachmann and Mainline locos will both run better and have the potential to last much longer than the original locos 

[Pandora]

If you see a S/H locomotive you  are thinking of purchasing, why not post to this thread the details of make/ catalogue number for identification purposes,  members of the forum will soon provide the advice you seek

[Steamport Southport]

43 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I think like all things in life, to a degree its buyer beware, irrespective of whether its new or second hand. If its cheap and it works then clearly its good value. Buying a decent new loco at a great discount is worthwhile, but uncommon. buying said loco second hand will often be even cheaper and quite often these turn out to be in excellent condition

 

But do keep an open mind other bargains can be sought

 

 

For some reason as soon as the words kit built chassis is added to a RTR loco quite often buyers disappear. ( I expect had the 2 been sold separately the seller would have made much more) Its a great runner and as it has flangeless wheels will work just as well on set track. For what it lacks in the brake gear department it makes up with performance owing to the can motor, decent wheels and modern motor mount

 

 

This one is even better 3F with a Comet chassis (£20) Romford/Markit wheels axles etc (£45) 1015 motor £23) gears and flywheel (£10) Such a sweet runner with added weight at one end of the chassis, runs like a dream and the flywheel smooths out the running. If wanted the cab details could be reinstated as the motor fits into the boilers and smokebox and there is a white blemish on the smokebox.  Must have cost the builder £100 at today's prices. For me sadly the wrong region (was going to fit it into a whitemetal kit that took a Jinty chassis, but as I am now migrating to EM gauge its too much trouble to convert it.  I will either sell it on or just keep the wheels motor and gears and sell the body and chassis

 

But this proves second hand locos are worth a second look and these Bachmann and Mainline locos will both run better and have the potential to last much longer than the original locos 

 

Oh dear. Totally missing the point of why you use after market chassis rather than the RTR one it came with....

 

You can easily fit a Mashima 1620 and gearbox in the Jinty without anything being in the cab. You could even fit a flywheel if wanted. Plenty of space for weight.

 

I'm not criticising the builder, just the way it's been implemented.

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

 

52 minutes ago, hayfield said:

... like all things in life, to a degree its buyer beware, irrespective of whether its new or second hand. If its cheap and it works then clearly its good value. Buying a decent new loco at a great discount is worthwhile, but uncommon. buying said loco second hand will often be even cheaper and quite often these turn out to be in excellent condition...

The difficulty with 'buyer beware' is that for the buyer to do this effectively, they need the knowledge.

 

27 minutes ago, Pandora said:

If you see a S/H locomotive you  are thinking of purchasing, why not post to this thread the details of make/ catalogue number for identification purposes,  members of the forum will soon provide the advice you seek

While this is a reasonable suggestion it has two primary problems.

Firstly, are the details correct? Most of my bargains arise because the seller has not a clue. There was no demand for a Homby BI, even though it's absolutely perfect; and now mine...

And then those participating here who will have widely differing opinions. (Mine are 'send all pre 1999 RTR OO introductions to the crusher - with only a few rare exceptions - and thus improve the standard of existing RTR OO models', but I expect not all would agree with either or both of the general concept, or the detail of the worthwhile exceptions.)

[hayfield]

43 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Oh dear. Totally missing the point of why you use after market chassis rather than the RTR one it came with....

 

You can easily fit a Mashima 1620 and gearbox in the Jinty without anything being in the cab. You could even fit a flywheel if wanted. Plenty of space for weight.

 

I'm not criticising the builder, just the way it's been implemented.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Jason

 

I may be missing the point you wish to make, the question  was about second hand locos. For someone who is looking for an inexpensive loco ready to run don't be put off if it has been converted. If the advert stated its a good runner then with eBay you are covered, if it is not working as described you can get your money back. Both these locos were bought quite reasonably, both run very well.  The flywheel with the 1015 works exceptionally well especially as it has a motor mount (all be it a new version) rather than a gearbox. Normally I would strip down the parts to be reused in a kit built loco, but even with an old H&M controller the fly wheel smooths out the performance. But don't let the rights or wrongs of how the chassis has been built mask the fact that an inexpensive S/H loco can be excellent value, even better than a new one

 

For someone working on a budget and perhaps not a seasoned modeller fitting a new motor let alone fitting a gearbox in a RTR chassis is both expensive (£40+) and possibly beyond their skills, also perhaps would make an excellent thread in its own right. For the record my preference is to use gearboxes and can motors, I have one of High Level coreless motors to try out, perhaps at £28 better value than the cost of the remaining stocks of Mashima's

[hayfield]

57 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 

 

The difficulty with 'buyer beware' is that for the buyer to do this effectively, they need the knowledge.

 

 

I was trying to explain (badly) that as with all things in life irrespective of them being model railway related, new or old whenever we are deciding on buying something within our decision process we should consider the" Buyer Beware" in all acquisitions, the more we buy (hopefully) the better we get

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Jason

 

I may be missing the point you wish to make, the question  was about second hand locos. For someone who is looking for an inexpensive loco ready to run don't be put off if it has been converted. If the advert stated its a good runner then with eBay you are covered, if it is not working as described you can get your money back. Both these locos were bought quite reasonably, both run very well.  The flywheel with the 1015 works exceptionally well especially as it has a motor mount (all be it a new version) rather than a gearbox. Normally I would strip down the parts to be reused in a kit built loco, but even with an old H&M controller the fly wheel smooths out the performance. But don't let the rights or wrongs of how the chassis has been built mask the fact that an inexpensive S/H loco can be excellent value, even better than a new one

 

For someone working on a budget and perhaps not a seasoned modeller fitting a new motor let alone fitting a gearbox in a RTR chassis is both expensive (£40+) and possibly beyond their skills, also perhaps would make an excellent thread in its own right. For the record my preference is to use gearboxes and can motors, I have one of High Level coreless motors to try out, perhaps at £28 better value than the cost of the remaining stocks of Mashima's

 

My point was the builder obviously didn't read the instructions. If he had then it would be facing forward into the firebox, boiler and tank and you can fit a hefty motor in there, without anything infringing into the cab. You would also negate the need for that weight as the centre of gravity would be over the driving wheels.

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/data/Catalog/pdf/LCP8.pdf

 

Personally I would be stripping that down into it's bits and starting again....

 

 

 

Jason

[FoxUnpopuli]

I spent weekend before last renovating a whole bunch of s/h stock, not least of which, four Airfix/GMR 4Fs.  All were poor runners, and I got my own one out too, which hasn't turned a wheel in 25 years.  It was...  about average among the other four.

 

Over a few hours, I stripped the tender drives down to the component gears, washers, brushes and armatures, cleaned them with IPA, checked the brushes, (not one needed replacing) lubed them up, rebuilt them, rejuvenated the traction tyres with IPA and spaced the wheels.  As far as the locos went, the ones which had been 'maintained' were basically full of wet, sticky oil, so they all had to be stripped to clean and lightly oil them.  The Airfix pickup system is pretty bloody good, and I think these will convert to DCC just fine.  

 

Both loco and tender have quite short axles and were invariably under 14mm back-to-back.  Now they're spaced to 14.2 to 14.4mm, as opposed to a more conventional 14.5mm.  A couple of the locos badly needed quartering, so that was done with a little trepidation (never tried it before) and now...

 

All five run just fine.  They're acceptably quiet, smooth, plenty of traction, run down to a plain (non-PWM) 3 volts or so at an absolute crawl, with no hunting or any sign of pickup issues,

 

Same can't quite be said for my old Hornby Ringfield-powered Duchess of Abercorn, nor Black 5 #5138.  Both responded to cleaning, but the Ringfields really are poor units compared to the Airfix lump - even if they don't feel like they should be.  I've bought a Strathpeffer Junction upgrade kit (although I'm an engineer, so I'm going to tinker and make one or two myself, I think) and am looking forward to reviving one of them with that.  Honourable Father and I have also bought a variety of motors from eBay for future kitbuilds, and I might have a go at converting the Duchess to loco drive for fun.  She's not exactly a 'Super-Detail', but these models hold a certain sentimental value.

 

All of my my old Mainline locos (which again, haven't turned a wheel in 25 years) ran faultlessly from the box, untouched.  Amazing.  The Replica Railways 57xx didn't fair so well - all the green lube had basically turned to glue!  Once again, a complete stripdown, clean and relube, and she's as sweet as a nut.

 

I'm having tremendous amounts of fun already, and it was just my first weekend back in the modelling saddle.  The 4Fs are going to get detailed, painted and renumbered to be Bournville Shed residents, along with everything else I'm sourcing at the moment.  The Darlington Works part of the layout has to wait...

 

We're going to go full DCC at some point, but I don't care about how 'difficult' it is to convert Mainline/Bachmann split chassis units.  That will be fun too!

 

My advice would be to get to a model fair and get your mitts on the merchandise.  If it looks OK to you from an 'acceptable model' point of view, you can probably make it run smoothly - and if it doesn't, it's just got character!  Everyone else's opinion be damned.    Rule One is the only rule!

 

P.S. @hayfield Any chance of first dibs on what you decide to sell of that Jinty?! 

Edited November 18, 2019 by FoxUnpopuli

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

10 hours ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

 ...Hornby Ringfield-powered Duchess of Abercorn, nor Black 5 #5138.  Both responded to cleaning, but the Ringfields really are poor units compared to the Airfix lump - even if they don't feel like they should be.  I've bought a Strathpeffer Junction upgrade kit (although I'm an engineer, so I'm going to tinker and make one or two myself, I think) and am looking forward to reviving one of them with that.  Honourable Father and I have also bought a variety of motors from eBay for future kitbuilds, and I might have a go at converting the Duchess to loco drive for fun...

While you are hunting around amongst the s/h, you might luck into one of the early 'Silver Seal' productions of the 9F and class 47 with the original Fleischmann design ringfield motor. Easy to spot, all three axles are driven, and the drive line layout is assymetric with a large gear one end. This has torque, and smooth operation from dead slow, the sort of performance that was expected from 1960s HO, and will substitute into later models with a little whittling to loco interiors as required...

 

10 hours ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

...We're going to go full DCC at some point, but I don't care about how 'difficult' it is to convert Mainline/Bachmann split chassis units.  That will be fun too!..

It is not difficult, more fiddly on the Bachmann units, and there are good online 'how-to's here and elsewhere.

 

But I see you have plans to go outside. Many of the Mainline mechanisms have traction tyres, and these are hopeless outdoors, very short life and quickly ineffective from the combination of dirt and damp that goes with outdoor operation. The Mainline pod motor is pretty feeble, and needs a Zimo decoder to make it perform. Application of Araldite to make the split axle wheelsets mechanically solid is advisable. Then the intermediate gear breaks, or the plastic slide bars get bent or the axle gear shreds apart. Don't have great expectations of long working life in short.

 

The heavy Bachmann split chassis steam models like the A4 mechanism, (which you can easily make all wheel pick up on the loco as the front bogie is split axle construction and has the connections for pick up, just needs wiring in; and the tender has split axle wheelsets too just waiting exploitation) does particularly well outdoors with its weight for ample traction and pick up combined with a good motor which offers plenty of low speed torque.

 

So all is dandy you might think, but these often wear through the essential plating for conduction on the tyres, stub axles and chassis locations rather swiftly - it's the inevitable ultrafine grit on the rails outdoors - and once the plating is gone the model is essentially 'used up'. Before purchase, with the mechanism out of the body look very closely at the plating on both the wheels and the chassis halves. There's a flash of copper on the Mazak to ensure adhesion of the nickel which is the intended wearing surface: unfortunately the control of the nickel plating thickness was poor. If you can see copper on the tyres or the block surfaces, it ain't got much life in it. Every now and again you may find one with components that got a longer stay in the plating bath, those are the ones you want. (The Mainline mechanisms typically break before wearing through the plating.)

[flockandroll]

re RTR loco with kit built chassis :

You mean like this

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F333106602608

But what is going on with the condition of the metal of the wheels and rods? And the motor is still in the cab... 

[hayfield]

No, despite the title this one does not have a kit built chassis, also its a Hornby model of a GWR Pannier Tank. The chassis is the standard Hornby Jinty chassis, certainly nothing like a kit, it has been re-wheeled with unpainted Romford/Markit wheels . I assume it has a X03/04 3 pole motor and no flywheel, neither I guess does it have spring buffers on the body. As you say there seems to be some corrosion to parts of the chassis

 

 

Its a Bachmann body which is a far better model than the Hornby model, as you can see the coupling rods are much finer and there is brake gear, there is a mark on the smoke box, which could either easily be repainted matt black or form part of future weathering

 

If you are looking at costings at today's prices a Comet chassis is about £20, Markit wheels, axles & crankpins £40 +. Motor £20, gears and motor mount £5 and flywheel £2. So if you went out and bought the parts new you would be thinking in the region of £90 ish. Not cheap but what is

 

 

The motor is a 1015 with a flywheel, the builder put a heavy metal block under the cab. I would guess the wheels now cost more than the Hornby Pannier did new

Edited November 20, 2019 by hayfield

[flockandroll]

Thanks Hayfield, I didn't trust myself to identify that as just a Hornby chassis, contrary to the title. 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by flockandroll
Edited to replace "despite" with "contrary to"

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, flockandroll said:

re RTR loco with kit built chassis :

You mean like this

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F333106602608

But what is going on with the condition of the metal of the wheels and rods? And the motor is still in the cab... 

Just look who is selling it.

If you are not aware of this person or his form then you need to read up on him before you dabble in the used market.

Look in the ebay area of the forum for starters.

There are some folk who are very rude about him, but I could not possibly comment.

Bernard

[flockandroll]

Ah, yes, a good point. I didn't notice who the seller was, but yes heard his name mentioned before... more than once... 

[hayfield]

To be quite honest, the body will not be affected by the corrosion (if that's what it is). The wheels will clean up and should be fine, though the thread of the centre wheels may be damaged. Looking at the cost of Markit wheels and what you can get selling the body , motor, and the Triang/Hornby type Romford axles, by that sellers past reputation on prices its not too steep.

 

But not for me