DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[halsey]

On 28/12/2019 at 08:52, halsey said:

 

I've got glue spatulas on order but will retain this idea...……………………...

 

These have arrived and look just the job - yet to use - but strong and easy to handle - will report back

[Guest Jack Benson]

On 28/12/2019 at 08:10, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Wiring for Electrofrog points has nothing whatsoever to do with DC/DCC & everything to do with reliability.

 

 Errr, not according to Peco, their instructions for wiring turnouts for DC or DCC are different but what would they know?

 

JB

[Pete the Elaner]

15 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

 Errr, not according to Peco, their instructions for wiring turnouts for DC or DCC are different but what would they know?

 

JB

That is a blanket recommendation to cover all bases.

I am happy to explain why it is not correct.

 

Modifying the point is for reliability because:

You electrically bond stock & switch rail together, thereby negating reliance on the 2 touching in order to provide an electrical connection, which can be the least reliable part of the point.

By making the entire frog section 1 polarity, it copes with the possibility of a coarse wheel from touching 2 rails at the frog. If unmodified, these rails will be opposing polarities & therefore the wheel can cause a short circuit.

 

A short circuit is undesirable because it overloads electrical components, so it is always best to avoid it wherever possible instead of dealing with it.

 

The only difference between DC & DCC is how they react to a short circuit.

DCC short circuit protection is fast & it will shut off the track supply when a short is detected.

DC overload protection is comparatively slow. If the train is running anything more than a snail's pace, you will probably see nothing more than a spark & possibly a short hesitaton. I stand by my statement above that it is always better to try to prevent a short where possible.

 

Therefore modifying a point is beneficial regardless of whether DC or DCC is being used.

[halsey]

I have "completed" the wiring and all seems OK with my small stable except one loco is running ridiculously slow?? (Zimo 8 pin decoder).

 

I have as a result of some "googling" checked voltage levels all over the layout and it is a steady 19.8-20.1v AC all over the layout which I am assuming even allowing for the issues some refer to about multimeters and DCC is OK as its consistent.

 

PLEASE remember I'm very new to this and not techy - what might be the Loco issue - I have tried the 14/28/128 re-setting and it makes no difference 

 

Gaugemaster Prodigy/Bachmann Fairburn Tank DCC fitted by me!

 

[Pete the Elaner]

45 minutes ago, halsey said:

I have as a result of some "googling" checked voltage levels all over the layout and it is a steady 19.8-20.1v AC all over the layout which I am assuming even allowing for the issues some refer to about multimeters and DCC is OK as its consistent.

 

PLEASE remember I'm very new to this and not techy - what might be the Loco issue - I have tried the 14/28/128 re-setting and it makes no difference 

I agree about the voltage measurements. A Multimeter will not read DCC voltage correctly because it should be set up to read a different wave form.

The important thing is consistency & you seem to have this.

 

You make it sound like 1 loco is an issue, so the voltage should not be the problem.

If it is actually running, I can think of 3 things.

A faulty decoder.

CV settings which need adjusting (Zimo decoders are usually pretty good 'straight out of the box'. Factory resetting may help if you can do it. This is usually achieved by  trying to set CV8 to 8.

A sticky loco mechanism. If this is the issue, then running it on DC should show it up.

[Izzy]

Unless you are reading the voltage wrongly somehow, what you quote ( 19.8- 20.1v) is excessive for a Prodigy - I’m correct in that your system is an PA2 (squared) aren’t I? They are 3.5amp/13.5v, and using a simple digital multimeter mine gives the 13.5v reading at the track. I would want to check that first before going any further. 
 

Izzy

[Guest Jack Benson]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

That is a blanket recommendation to cover all bases.

I am happy to explain why it is not correct:-

 

Therefore modifying a point is beneficial regardless of whether DC or DCC is being used.

Hi,

 

Are you assuming that we didn't modify our Electrofrogs or that we were unaware of the basic rules of wiring turnouts using separate microswitches?  Despite your comments we never R never suffered a DCC mulfunction, on both our permanent and portable layouts.

 

However thanks for your input.

 

JB

 

 

 

[Izzy]

37 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Unless you are reading the voltage wrongly somehow, what you quote ( 19.8- 20.1v) is excessive for a Prodigy - I’m correct in that your system is an PA2 (squared) aren’t I? They are 3.5amp/13.5v, and using a simple digital multimeter mine gives the 13.5v reading at the track. I would want to check that first before going any further. 
 

Izzy

So very sorry, gave the wrong figure, not sure why. It’s 15v at the track, just double-checked against my layout. Still about 5v less though.

 

Izzy

[Pete the Elaner]

7 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Unless you are reading the voltage wrongly somehow,

Yes, but don't worry.

You are trying to read a square wave with a meter designed for a sine wave. It will be inaccurate for this reason.

 

What meters are you using? Expensive calibrated ones? Most do not use these because we do not need the accuracy (I don't). We just really need to see if a voltage is high or low, so a reading from one should not be compared against a reading from another.

 

I am not saying track voltage is definitely not the problem...but it is very unlikely.

[trevora]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

I have "completed" the wiring and all seems OK with my small stable except one loco is running ridiculously slow?? (Zimo 8 pin decoder).

 

I have as a result of some "googling" checked voltage levels all over the layout and it is a steady 19.8-20.1v AC all over the layout which I am assuming even allowing for the issues some refer to about multimeters and DCC is OK as its consistent.

 

PLEASE remember I'm very new to this and not techy - what might be the Loco issue - I have tried the 14/28/128 re-setting and it makes no difference 

 

Gaugemaster Prodigy/Bachmann Fairburn Tank DCC fitted by me!

Is this with a load on the track as otherwise it is meaningless

Trevora

 

[Pete the Elaner]

43 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

Are you assuming that we didn't modify our Electrofrogs or that we were unaware of the basic rules of wiring turnouts using separate microswitches?  Despite your comments we never R never suffered a DCC mulfunction, on both our permanent and portable layouts.

 

However thanks for your input.

 

JB

 

 

 

I can't assume anything because I don't know you.

I frequently see the phrase 'modifying a point for DCC' which implies that you should modify it for DCC but shouldn't for DC. which is misleading & this annoys me.

I think it is important to understand what the modification is intended to achieve. Once I understood it, I realised it was equally applicable to DC.

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Unless you are reading the voltage wrongly somehow, what you quote ( 19.8- 20.1v) is excessive for a Prodigy - I’m correct in that your system is an PA2 (squared) aren’t I? They are 3.5amp/13.5v, and using a simple digital multimeter mine gives the 13.5v reading at the track. I would want to check that first before going any further. 
 

Izzy

 

YES it is a PA2 - how do I check it further??

 

Keep it simple please??

[halsey]

12 minutes ago, trevora said:

 

 

No load on the track - by load I assume you mean a Loco??

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I agree about the voltage measurements. A Multimeter will not read DCC voltage correctly because it should be set up to read a different wave form.

The important thing is consistency & you seem to have this.

 

You make it sound like 1 loco is an issue, so the voltage should not be the problem.

If it is actually running, I can think of 3 things.

A faulty decoder.

CV settings which need adjusting (Zimo decoders are usually pretty good 'straight out of the box'. Factory resetting may help if you can do it. This is usually achieved by  trying to set CV8 to 8.

A sticky loco mechanism. If this is the issue, then running it on DC should show it up.

 

Thanks

I'll check this tomorrow am

[grriff]

2 hours ago, halsey said:

I have "completed" the wiring and all seems OK with my small stable except one loco is running ridiculously slow?? (Zimo 8 pin decoder).

If you carry out what 'Pete the Elaner' suggests and it has no effect, see if you can check CV5, which sets the maximum voltage. According to a Zimo manual on the web, it may be set at 1, which should have no effect. It should be 0,1 or over 100. You could try setting it to zero, which effectively turns this CV 'off'. CV6 (mid-speed) should also be zero. This is a 'long shot' I'm afraid as I would expect the Zimo defaults to be the optimum settings.

[jpendle]

1 minute ago, halsey said:

 

No load on the track - by load I assume you mean a Loco??

Yes he does, or you could use a suitable resistor.

Think about it like a water main. If every tap on a main is turned off then at any given time the water pressure will be fine any where along the main even if there are narrow bits or blockages.

If you turn a tap on where the water flow if good then the pressure should remain reasonably constant, but if you turn a tap on where the flow is bad, then the pressure will drop and will take some time to recover (if it ever does).

 

It's the same with electricity, you might have a location on your layout that has 'poor flow', but you'll only notice if you put a loco there or thereabouts, and then you'll likely see the voltage drop.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[halsey]

16 minutes ago, grriff said:

If you carry out what 'Pete the Elaner' suggests and it has no effect, see if you can check CV5, which sets the maximum voltage. According to a Zimo manual on the web, it may be set at 1, which should have no effect. It should be 0,1 or over 100. You could try setting it to zero, which effectively turns this CV 'off'. CV6 (mid-speed) should also be zero. This is a 'long shot' I'm afraid as I would expect the Zimo defaults to be the optimum settings.

 

Thanks but won't a factory reset CV8 8 also address this??

 

Hey - I'm happy to try all of the above ……………….

[grriff]

6 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

Thanks but won't a factory reset CV8 8 also address this??

Yes it should. Like I said, it's a long shot...

Good luck.

[Nigelcliffe]

3 hours ago, halsey said:

I have "completed" the wiring and all seems OK with my small stable except one loco is running ridiculously slow?? (Zimo 8 pin decoder).

 

 

Does this imply you have other locos which are running fine ?     If so, it tends to suggest its loco/decoder, not track. 

 

If there are other locos, then back to the problem one.  Can you easily try another decoder in it ? Or, can you try the Zimo 8-pin decoder in a different loco ?   That might start to narrow down the issue to loco or decoder.

 

 

[halsey]

13 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Does this imply you have other locos which are running fine ?     If so, it tends to suggest its loco/decoder, not track. 

 

If there are other locos, then back to the problem one.  Can you easily try another decoder in it ? Or, can you try the Zimo 8-pin decoder in a different loco ?   That might start to narrow down the issue to loco or decoder.

 

 

 

I have two locos out of 7 running fine which were professionally hard wired one of my conversions is fine and one appears to have a faulty decoder (acknowledge by the shop) so its going back with the loco to be fully resolved.

 

The track fully checks out with both a meter checking soldered joints and continuity and the two known locos running over all if it with no issues - I was quite pleased with myself as I only had one dry joint and one misaligned fishplate.

 

The rest of my Locos including the slow one are a work in progress 

 

Thanks for all the advice tomorrow is another day - New Year issues might get in the way

Edited December 31, 2019 by halsey
more info given

[WIMorrison]

Have you confirmed that this problem loco runs properly on DC yet? That needs to be done before you start trying to find issues that might not exist

[halsey]

10 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Have you confirmed that this problem loco runs properly on DC yet? That needs to be done before you start trying to find issues that might not exist

 

This is a (minor) source of aggravation as when my thoughts turned to converting no-one mentioned that I would need to retain my DC capability so it is now long gone thanks to eBay (I got a very good pre Christmas price so not that much of an issue)...

 

I have rigged up a PP3 battery so I can do a wheels check

 

I am posting this more for the benefit of others so they don't make the same mistake

 

Lots of good advice re basic stuff to do next - I will report back

 

As this is very early days so not a lot to lose I can see how to do a decoder reset via CV8-8 but can I reset the Prodigy2 this was truly an as new eBay purchase so whilst it appears OK it could be eliminated??

[halsey]

Another general question re the programming track??

 

Remembering I have a Prodigy2

 

I have wired up a 1m section of track on a board to programme static locos as they don't seem to run on the programme track

 

Do all functions have to be set on this track or just the CV functions

[WIMorrison]

Unfortunately a PP9 battery is only going to confirm that the wheels turn,  it isn’t going to confirm that the loco runs at the proper speed, and you need to know that the loco runs correctly before converting to DCC.

 

with a new loco I would actually run it in using DC before fitting a chip into it, especially a hard wired loco. Doing it this way means you can return it if you are not happy.

 

[halsey]

1 minute ago, WIMorrison said:

Unfortunately a PP9 battery is only going to confirm that the wheels turn,  it isn’t going to confirm that the loco runs at the proper speed, and you need to know that the loco runs correctly before converting to DCC.

 

with a new loco I would actually run it in using DC before fitting a chip into it, especially a hard wired loco. Doing it this way means you can return it if you are not happy.

 

 

I don't have (or want) lots of locos those I have suit fine and have all run well on DC on my last layout before we moved house into store 6 months ago - so they are a known quantity

 

I assume the PP3 will expose a level of speed compared to now but I fully accept its limitations

 

If I have an issue I will send off my remaining 3 underperforming/unconverted locos and get them properly set up as this aspect of DCC isn't my "bag" beyond basic reset type checking.

 

I suppose my failing with this hobby is I like the layout building planning wiring and track laying aspects and obviously the modelling - less so the actual running and definitely not taking locos apart to identify faults.

 

Two (more) basic questions

Will a converted DCC loco run on DC track

If I bought a new DCC fitted loco does that need checking and running in on DC or will it be OK out of the box??