DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[WIMorrison]

if you have left the cv settings at default then a DCC Loco will run an DC as the CV29 default enables DC running.

 

I would run in a new loco that has arrived DCC fitted on DCC, but would also confirm that it running correctly on DC.

 

depending on the decoder fitted DC will give you direct control though some will also simulate the acceleration and deceleration that you get on DCC when running on DC.

[Izzy]

Re the Prodigy. Firstly I am sorry if I had raised concerns over it’s output. I knew the track readout from digital multi-meters would not be highly accurate, just a guide, but had no idea that different ones could give widely differing results reading the same DCC output.

 

AFAIK the only type of ‘reset’ that can be applied to the Prodigy is simply turning the power off/back on, a re-boot like you often need to do to a fair bit of electronic stuff at times.

 

Now a warning if I may regarding the track outputs, main and program track. Don’t connect both at the same time.

 

When I first got my PA2 9 years back I did not realise that both are ‘on’ at all times, and not just when you choose either main or program track.  The main output is of course full power while the prog output is very low, just enough to program decoders without ‘frying’ them if there are faults. Stupidly I connected both to the track at the same time, not knowing both were live, and the main track output promptly blew the program track outputs. This then meant the command station had to go back to Gaugemaster for repair........(it was repaired/returned within 5 days FOC because it was then brand new.....).

 

Gaugemaster are first rate at giving help/advice/support via email or ‘phone if there are any problems. Perhaps they might advise in what range the track output power should read via a meter.

Izzy

Edited December 31, 2019 by Izzy
Addition

[jcm@gwr]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

if you have left the cv settings at default then a DCC Loco will run an DC as the CV29 default enables DC running.

 

I would run in a new loco that has arrived DCC fitted on DCC, but would also confirm that it running correctly on DC.

 

depending on the decoder fitted DC will give you direct control though some will also simulate the acceleration and deceleration that you get on DCC when running on DC.

 

BUT, GaugeMaster (I believe) have never updated their software, so it will automatically change CV29, eliminating the ability to run on DC.

This is bad enough in itself, but the way it does it can upset other settings as well, you couldn't pay me to own a Prodigy (re-badged MRC)

[halsey]

Result

 

SLOW loco sorted via CV8 8 and then reading the default 03 setting

 

?? do DCC locos generally run slower than DC - also I can't sense any speed difference between 14/28/128 speed settings is this because they should be set on the programme track? the locos don't seem to like setting 128 esp when I change it over as they seem to cough and then run badly only marginal not drastic.

 

The track is reading 19.6v when under load

[halsey]

51 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Re the Prodigy. Firstly I am sorry if I had raised concerns over it’s output. I knew the track readout from digital multi-meters would not be highly accurate, just a guide, but had no idea that different ones could give widely differing results reading the same DCC output.

 

AFAIK the only type of ‘reset’ that can be applied to the Prodigy is simply turning the power off/back on, a re-boot like you often need to do to a fair bit of electronic stuff at times.

 

Now a warning if I may regarding the track outputs, main and program track. Don’t connect both at the same time.

 

When I first got my PA2 9 years back I did not realise that both are ‘on’ at all times, and not just when you choose either main or program track.  The main output is of course full power while the prog output is very low, just enough to program decoders without ‘frying’ them if there are faults. Stupidly I connected both to the track at the same time, not knowing both were live, and the main track output promptly blew the program track outputs. This then meant the command station had to go back to Gaugemaster for repair........(it was repaired/returned within 5 days FOC because it was then brand new.....).

 

Gaugemaster are first rate at giving help/advice/support via email or ‘phone if there are any problems. Perhaps they might advise in what range the track output power should read via a meter.

Izzy

 

As you have got a PA2 can you clear/empty the loco memory on the handset as its got old (previous owner) numbers on it which is annoying

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, halsey said:

Result

 

SLOW loco sorted via CV8 8 and then reading the default 03 setting

 

?? do DCC locos generally run slower than DC - also I can't sense any speed difference between 14/28/128 speed settings is this because they should be set on the programme track? the locos don't seem to like setting 128 esp when I change it over as they seem to cough and then run badly only marginal not drastic.

 

The track is reading 19.6v when under load

Nice to hear that your slow loco has been cured.

 

I think it is hard to compare speed because you can be comparing different systems. My NCE uses a separate power supply (I think it can use 15-18v, mine is 15v - I think this is significant.

Different decoders may also provide a higher top speed.

 

14/28/128 speeds is just the number of different steps between zero & max. I prefer to use 128 but a friend of mine prefers 28 on his exhibition layout. I can only see a difference with acceleration set to 0, then on the lower steps, I can see the loco jump from each step. Speed 14/14 should be identical to 128/128.

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

BUT, GaugeMaster (I believe) have never updated their software, so it will automatically change CV29, eliminating the ability to run on DC.

This is bad enough in itself, but the way it does it can upset other settings as well, you couldn't pay me to own a Prodigy (re-badged MRC)

 

??? How can the Gaugemaster change the default decoder behaviour, you need to reprogram the CV29 settings and that isn't something that the Gaugemaster can do without you explicitly telling it to change CV29.

 

I think you may be guilty of swallowing an urban myth

[jcm@gwr]

51 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

??? How can the Gaugemaster change the default decoder behaviour, you need to reprogram the CV29 settings and that isn't something that the Gaugemaster can do without you explicitly telling it to change CV29.

 

I think you may be guilty of swallowing an urban myth

 

The club has a Prodigy, it does not reprogram a chip, it 'deletes' the info on CV29, it has done it to numerous 

members locos and it doesn't matter which brand of decoder is installed.

It is no 'urban myth', I suggest that you google the problem for your own satisfaction and proof!

It was common in the very beginnings of DCC controllers and all the manufacturers corrected the software,

except GaugeMaster 

 

You can avoid the problem by 'locking' the chip, but bit will need 'unlocking' for any further re-programming.

Edited December 31, 2019 by jcm@gwr
grammer and more info

[grriff]

Halsey, if you have got rid of your old DC controller I wouldn't worry. Although manufacturers suggest you run a new loco for about half an hour on DC, my neighbour has bought plenty of new locos, never run them on DC and never had a problem.

[WIMorrison]

43 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

The club has a Prodigy, it does not reprogram a chip, it 'deletes' the info on CV29, it has done it to numerous 

members locos and it doesn't matter which brand of decoder is installed.

It is no 'urban myth', I suggest that you google the problem for your own satisfaction and proof!

It was common in the very beginnings of DCC controllers and all the manufacturers correct the software,

except GaugeMaster 

Amazing, been using DCC for 20 years and this is the first mention of this myth.

[boxbrownie]

19 minutes ago, grriff said:

Halsey, if you have got rid of your old DC controller I wouldn't worry. Although manufacturers suggest you run a new loco for about half an hour on DC, my neighbour has bought plenty of new locos, never run them on DC and never had a problem.

I agree, I’ve never completely understood the advice to “run in” on DC first, I am sure it’s just put out by the manufacturers/suppliers to negate the issues of faulty Locos from new being sent back modified for DCC (and not being able just to be put back into stock without checking) but that’s just the cynic in me talking 

 

Every Loco I’ve modified straight from the box and run has always been fine, I am pretty sure “decoder fitted” Locos direct from the factory are not run in on D.C. for and hour or so each before the DCC decoder is fitted and packed.

[halsey]

On 30/12/2019 at 08:48, halsey said:

 

These have arrived and look just the job - yet to use - but strong and easy to handle - will report back

 

"10Pc PVA GLUE SPATULAS Paint Paste Craft Adhesive Plastic Spreader Stick Flat"

 

Sorry I can't seem to find/create a link but this is what they were called on Ebay - a VERY good item in use - easy to use and strong enough but with some give in them as well

[jcm@gwr]

1 minute ago, WIMorrison said:

Amazing, been using DCC for 20 years and this is the first mention of this myth.

 

I'm guessing that you don't own or use the Prodigy,

do you know anyone in MERG?

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

"10Pc PVA GLUE SPATULAS Paint Paste Craft Adhesive Plastic Spreader Stick Flat"

 

Sorry I can't seem to find/create a link but this is what they were called on Ebay - a VERY good item in use - easy to use and strong enough but with some give in them as well

Oh no, I couldn’t use those......such colours....they clash 

[jcm@gwr]

7 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Oh no, I couldn’t use those......such colours....they clash 

 

With the locos, or your eyes? 

[NIK]

29 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I agree, I’ve never completely understood the advice to “run in” on DC first, I am sure it’s just put out by the manufacturers/suppliers to negate the issues of faulty Locos from new being sent back modified for DCC (and not being able just to be put back into stock without checking) but that’s just the cynic in me talking 

 

Every Loco I’ve modified straight from the box and run has always been fine, I am pretty sure “decoder fitted” Locos direct from the factory are not run in on D.C. for and hour or so each before the DCC decoder is fitted and packed.

Hi,

 

I had a Heljan Class 16 whose motor went very low resistance when running in on DC.

I had a Heljan Class 47 whose motor died during DC running in but I don't remember if went low resistance.

 

If the Cl16 had had certain types of DCC decoder in it that don't shut down the motor drive in the case of an overcurrent then the DCC decoder could have been damaged and possibly caused local overheating of the loco body.

 

Also running on a DC controller that happens not to have back emf* compensation allows for better diagnosis of faults with the loco.

* no compensation trying to hide variations in speed.

 

I agree it would seem unlikely that locos are run in on DC before they have their DCC decoders fitted at the factory, but maybe that's the manufacturer trading off manufacturing costs vs. warranty costs.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[boxbrownie]

30 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

With the locos, or your eyes? 

After seeing my modelling some would say I model with my eyes closed so cannot be those 

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

I had a Heljan Class 16 whose motor went very low resistance when running in on DC.

I had a Heljan Class 47 whose motor died during DC running in but I don't remember if went low resistance.

 

If the Cl16 had had certain types of DCC decoder in it that don't shut down the motor drive in the case of an overcurrent then the DCC decoder could have been damaged and possibly caused local overheating of the loco body.

 

Also running on a DC controller that happens not to have back emf* compensation allows for better diagnosis of faults with the loco.

* no compensation trying to hide variations in speed.

 

I agree it would seem unlikely that locos are run in on DC before they have their DCC decoders fitted at the factory, but maybe that's the manufacturer trading off manufacturing costs vs. warranty costs.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

Blimey, you’ve had bad luck with new purchases 

[WIMorrison]

45 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

I'm guessing that you don't own or use the Prodigy,

do you know anyone in MERG?

Not that would use a Gaugemaster product - in fact I don’t know anyone who would consider using a Gaugemaster product and going by the number of faults and issues described on RMWeb we are all very sensible.

[jcm@gwr]

3 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Not that would use a Gaugemaster product - in fact I don’t know anyone who would consider using a Gaugemaster product and going by the number of faults and issues described on RMWeb we are all very sensible.

 

I would suggest that Gaugemaster's own controllers are actually quite good, and they come with a lifetime guarantee,

but that guarantee does not cover the Prodigy range, I wonder why? 

[Free At Last]

4 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Not that would use a Gaugemaster product - in fact I don’t know anyone who would consider using a Gaugemaster product and going by the number of faults and issues described on RMWeb we are all very sensible.

 

I am sure that the non-sensible members here are quite happy with their Gaugemaster products

 

Quote

It is no 'urban myth', I suggest that you google the problem for your own satisfaction and proof

After doing a google search I have read reports of the MRC/Gaugemaster controllers resetting CV 29 bit 0 to 'off' (direction normal) when reprogramming a decoder.

[newbryford]

43 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

The club has a Prodigy, it does not reprogram a chip, it 'deletes' the info on CV29, it has done it to numerous 

members locos and it doesn't matter which brand of decoder is installed.

It is no 'urban myth', I suggest that you google the problem for your own satisfaction and proof!

It was common in the very beginnings of DCC controllers and all the manufacturers correct the software,

except GaugeMaster 

 

 

From the GM Prodigy manual

"When you program your decoder’s address with PRODIGY ADVANCE, it will automatically program CV29."

 

CHANGES                                      DECODER ADDRESS 1-127        DECODER ADDRESS 128-9999 

PRODIGY ADVANCE’s Default Setting      CV29 = 2                            CV29 = 34

Change Polarity Only                                  CV29 = 3                            CV29 = 35

Change to 14 Speed Steps Only                CV29 = 0                           CV29 = 32

Change Polarity & 14 Speed Steps           CV29 = 1                           CV29 = 33

 

So - yes, it does appear that the Prodigy defaults to DC off when programming an address.

 

 

But - a few quick tests:

 

I have just connected a GM Prodigy to a decoder that has had a full CV8=8 reset, Cv29 = 6 (i.e. DC enabled)

Changed a couple of CVs on the program track -  including address.

 

CV29 = 6 or 38 depending upon long or short address (i.e. DC enabled)

 

 

BUT:

 

When reprogramming the address on the Main track, then CV29 is changed as per the manual and DC running is disabled

 

Very odd!

(Note - I only have a GM PA for test purposes - it's not top of my list for controlling a layout)

 

2 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

I would suggest that Gaugemaster's own controllers are actually quite good, and they come with a lifetime guarantee,

but that guarantee does not cover the Prodigy range, I wonder why? 

 

Probably because the GM DC controllers are their own brand. The Prodigy is a re-badged MRC product.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

57 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

I'm guessing that you don't own or use the Prodigy,

do you know anyone in MERG?

I was unaware of this issue but I am mindful the fact that each DCC system has its own quirks & I find this oddity interesting.

I am also a MERG member but I am curious why you mention this? Do they have some documentation about it?

[Andymsa]

Been following with interest the prodigy debate and cv 29. As been mentioned I have also read this in the manual, I  also had never heard of this but as the saying goes every day is a learning experience but what astounds me why have this auto reprogramming feature. A new person to DCC finds it hard enough to get to grips with CVs but to introduce an automated feature like this will just lead to issues. 

[jcm@gwr]

29 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I was unaware of this issue but I am mindful the fact that each DCC system has its own quirks & I find this oddity interesting.

I am also a MERG member but I am curious why you mention this? Do they have some documentation about it?

 

No documentation, but all the MERG members at the club seem to be of the same opinion,

so I made (possibly incorrectly) an assumption that it was common knowledge with them.