DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[JimFin]

55 minutes ago, halsey said:

As the track is being laid is there still a need for isolated joints and again are there more or less of these??

 

DCC does not require any sections of track to be isolated, other than at the frog of electrofrog points, so a lot less than DC.

[Phil S]

It is recommended to use '2 separate busses' when both track and accessories are run via DCC: this could be as simple as having a switch for each of the 2 paths ,'track' and 'accessories', when you split them off the controller's output.   (Although I would, and others have, recommended using an automatic self-resetting circuit breaker such as the PSX, on the track circuit.   This is because one of the most common reasons for trains stopping under DCC is a loco overrunning onto a wrongly set point.

 

This level of wiring is still much simpler to install and maintain or modify than the 'analogue equivalent' requiring multiple isolating sections for the track, and sets of 2 or 3 wires 'from your chosen control position' to each and every point, and signal or other added scenic item using power.

It is simpler and neater because. locally to your accessory  is where you 'tap off' the accessory bus and connect 'an accessory module' ( remote controlled switch(es):  it MAY be more convenient in some places ( eg if only 1 accessory is located on that board), to use a 'single output pair decoder' or if there is a cluster to use from a 2, 4, 6 or 8 output pairs, or even an integrated digital point motor .... 

 

I use a combination of all of these, and have, for example,  38 sets of points on our portable skandi layout controlled by Train Tech CDU 1 or 4 output pair modules, which are charged from the DCC (accessory) bus.      Our garden layout uses 25 sets of points and are controlled from LGB 4 output modules ... powered from the track ...(  LGB points are dead-frog and all-effort in the garden is to get (duplicated) power feeds to ensure all weather reliability ,).     My loft layout uses many more points, and a combination of integrated digital point motors and Lens LS150 decoders with 6 output pairs BUT WHICH ALSO need a 16Vac bus run 'alongside' their DCC accessory bus.  ( track is all Rocoline and live Frog, with PSXs for each track district or subdistrict.

 

Control VIA DCC allows me maximum flexibility with minimum complication.  Everything CAN be controlled of each Roco Multimaus Handset ( including Routes on the (blue) or black Wireless handsets).  Or ( using the Z21/z21 current offering). I can use smart phones or tablets AS WELL or alternatively ... My choice.    The use of Xpressnet or Loconet gives a choice of mix and match for controller's if preferred eg Lenz users often use Roco Multimauses as they are so versatile and also show L/R for each point 

 

 A computer display screen or a tablet (z21) is now my preferred method of having a TRACK MImIC diagram to show points and signals ....this could also be done 'in hardware' by using accessory decoders with continuous display outputs. ( I  have a Zero1 mimi diagram 2metres long showing 130 points and signals with 99 addresses from an earlier version of my loft layout ...but now replaced by LED screens at lower cost.

 

What DOES add a lot of wiring, and benefits from adoption at the earliest design stage is the inclusion of train-detection or feedback.

For those who want to do this by current detection, it requires the track to be split onto isolated sections - each fed through a 'feedback module' which might handle 8 or 16 sections each.   My approach is to use optical detection which still requires the same number of feedback modules, BUT leaves the DCC running tracks unaffected ....no sections our still needed.      This feedback is needed if you wish to show where trains are on a track diagram, and then if you wish to have any automated running .  The sections are not the same as would be used in analogue control.

 

Remember also, that what has been written about the frequency of 'droppers' for the TRACK bus DEPENDS on the scale and therefore size of your rails !!!   00 using code 75 has more resistance than Code 83 or Code 100.   N gauge has much more need with its smaller rail section.

However, in the garden, we use LGB Brass rail of Code 320+  so it conducts better than the individual adjacent bus wire ( I use 4 in parallel )

Whereas a layout using finer Peco G Scale track has difficulty running multiple locos without many more feeds than a simple 1 per section !

It also depends on how you ballast your track ....as the PVA adhesive used by many is a good insulator and gets in between fish plate and rail !

Edited November 11, 2019 by Phil S

[halsey]

15 minutes ago, Phil S said:

It is recommended to use '2 separate busses' when both track and accessories are run via DCC: this could be as simple as having a switch for each of the 2 paths ,'track' and 'accessories', when you split them off the controller's output.   (Although I would, and others have, recommended using an automatic self-resetting circuit breaker such as the PSX, on the track circuit.   This is because one of the most common reasons for trains stopping under DCC is a loco overrunning onto a wrongly set point.

 

This level of wiring is still much simpler to install and maintain or modify than the 'analogue equivalent' requiring multiple isolating sections for the track, and sets of 2 or 3 wires 'from your chosen control position' to each and every point, and signal or other added scenic item using power.

It is simpler and neater because. locally to your accessory  is where you 'tap off' the accessory bus and connect 'an accessory module' ( remote controlled switch(es):  it MAY be more convenient in some places ( eg if only 1 accessory is located on that board), to use a 'single output pair decoder' or if there is a cluster to use from a 2, 4, 6 or 8 output pairs, or even an integrated digital point motor .... 

 

I use a combination of all of these, and have, for example,  38 sets of points on our portable skandi layout controlled by Train Tech CDU 1 or 4 output pair modules, which are charged from the DCC (accessory) bus.      Our garden layout uses 25 sets of points and are controlled from LGB 4 output modules ... powered from the track ...(  LGB points are dead-frog and all-effort in the garden is to get (duplicated) power feeds to ensure all weather reliability ,).     My loft layout uses many more points, and a combination of integrated digital point motors and Lens LS150 decoders with 6 output pairs BUT WHICH ALSO need a 16Vac bus run 'alongside' their DCC accessory bus.  ( track is all Rocoline and live Frog, with PSXs for each track district or subdistrict.

 

Control VIA DCC allows me maximum flexibility with minimum complication.  Everything CAN be controlled of each Roco Multimaus Handset ( including Routes on the (blue) or black Wireless handsets).  Or ( using the Z21/z21 current offering). I can use smart phones or tablets AS WELL or alternatively ... My choice.    The use of Xpressnet or Loconet gives a choice of mix and match for controller's if preferred eg Lenz users often use Roco Multimauses as they are so versatile and also show L/R for each point 

 

 A computer display screen or a tablet (z21) is now my preferred method of having a TRACK MImIC diagram to show points and signals ....this could also be done 'in hardware' by using accessory decoders with continuous display outputs. ( I  have a Zero1 mimi diagram 2metres long showing 130 points and signals with 99 addresses from an earlier version of my loft layout ...but now replaced by LED screens at lower cost.

 

What DOES add a lot of wiring, and benefits from adoption at the earliest design stage is the inclusion of train-detection or feedback.

For those who want to do this by current detection, it requires the track to be split onto isolated sections - each fed through a 'feedback module' which might handle 8 or 16 sections each.   My approach is to use optical detection which still requires the same number of feedback modules, BUT leaves the DCC running tracks unaffected ....no sections our still needed.      This feedback is needed if you wish to show where trains are on a track diagram, and then if you wish to have any automated running .  The sections are not the same as would be used in analogue control.

 

Remember also, that what has been written about the frequency of 'droppers' for the TRACK bus DEPENDS on the scale and therefore size of your rails !!!   00 using code 75 has more resistance than Code 83 or Code 100.   N gauge has much more need with its smaller rail section.

However, in the garden, we use LGB Brass rail of Code 320+  so it conducts better than the individual adjacent bus wire ( I use 4 in parallel )

Whereas a layout using finer Peco G Scale track has difficulty running multiple locos without many more feeds than a simple 1 per section !

It also depends on how you ballast your track ....as the PVA adhesive used by many is a good insulator and gets in between fish plate and rail !

Thanks this is very thorough (if a little daunting/overpowering) and has convinced me that I need to talk to and then go to DCC supplies

[halsey]

I suppose the other thing I should clarify is that its not wiring per se that bothers me its the amount that has to be under the boards as with my hip issues this is VERY important to me - I can cope and don't want to hinge boards etc but every wire saved is a bonus hence I don't think I will motorise points this time.

[Nigelcliffe]

31 minutes ago, halsey said:

I suppose the other thing I should clarify is that its not wiring per se that bothers me its the amount that has to be under the boards as with my hip issues this is VERY important to me - I can cope and don't want to hinge boards etc but every wire saved is a bonus hence I don't think I will motorise points this time.

 

So, design things so all the wiring, and point motors (etc) are above baseboard.   I know lots of people who have done this, hiding motors under low scenery or buildings which is removable for any wiring or maintenance, linking to tiebars with simple rods or wire-in-tube. 

 

One friend is in the process of building a very light weight layout so it can be easily lifted into vehicles, with all electrics above boards.  It is up to the highest of modelling standards, illustrating that wiring above baseboards is a design choice, not a compromise !

 

 

- Nigel

[Phil S]

Depending on how you plan your scenery - all wiring CAN be 'above board' - in all senses of the phrase 8-)

If you wer to use a 1cm layer of XPS foam - over your existing surface, it would also help quieten the trains running  ( although a rigid ballast glue would then make it a bit louder again )

Then you can easily, from above the board, copy the Gas, Electricity Water Phone and Network Rail in 'digging down' to bury any wiring rather than trying to find a 'conveneient australian' working from the othe side of the world !  A 2cm layer would allow Peco type point motors to be fitted below points without encroaching on the wooden board.

 

Depending on how you have done your framing - you may wish to start by marking their position on the top surface - for those DEEP items like Dapol Signals or Train Tech 'analogue'  Signals

 

PS I use spots of copydex to secure the track - I stopped using track pins many years ago !!

PPS XPS Foam (fireretardant/firefproofed buildong insulation)  is easily carved for 3D scenery, and is light in weight. Model railways do not need to be back nreaking !

Edited November 11, 2019 by Phil S

[boxbrownie]

37 minutes ago, halsey said:

Thanks this is very thorough (if a little daunting/overpowering) and has convinced me that I need to talk to and then go to DCC supplies

And there by lay the issues with DCC advancement, I have been using DCC for a long time now but recently I have come to the conclusion that both my 2mm Japanese DCC layout (fully Kato) and my plans for (and all the collected 7mm models) must go due to ill health as I no longer have the dexterity in my hands to do real “model engineering” so I am back to 4mm for a basic way to play trains, I investigated the options as I am not willing to give up the play value of DCC in Locos, so I am using all Trix-C track (ready ballasted sectional) on a slightly modified “Bredon” layout, all DCC will is carried by the rails as Trix-C track has extremely efficient fishplate/track connector design, all point are motorised and power is taken from the track also so the wiring for the points are all within the point.

 

I know it goes against the “best practise” as sold by experts but if a leading company like Marklin/Trix make it work then I am giving it a go, it really does make DCC a very easy option once more.

 

Onward and Upward eh?

[halsey]

23 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

So, design things so all the wiring, and point motors (etc) are above baseboard.   I know lots of people who have done this, hiding motors under low scenery or buildings which is removable for any wiring or maintenance, linking to tiebars with simple rods or wire-in-tube. 

 

One friend is in the process of building a very light weight layout so it can be easily lifted into vehicles, with all electrics above boards.  It is up to the highest of modelling standards, illustrating that wiring above baseboards is a design choice, not a compromise !

 

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks for this - I had gained the impression both this and last time that wiring above boards is simply not done! Clearly I'm wrong so will give that much more thought

I am going to use 2mm cork as a universal covering to act as a track base so will think more about broadening its use.

[halsey]

25 minutes ago, Phil S said:

Depending on how you plan your scenery - all wiring CAN be 'above board' - in all senses of the phrase 8-)

If you wer to use a 1cm layer of XPS foam - over your existing surface, it would also help quieten the trains running  ( although a rigid ballast glue would then make it a bit louder again )

Then you can easily, from above the board, copy the Gas, Electricity Water Phone and Network Rail in 'digging down' to bury any wiring rather than trying to find a 'conveneient australian' working from the othe side of the world !  A 2cm layer would allow Peco type point motors to be fitted below points without encroaching on the wooden board.

 

Depending on how you have done your framing - you may wish to start by marking their position on the top surface - for those DEEP items like Dapol Signals or Train Tech 'analogue'  Signals

 

PS I use spots of copydex to secure the track - I stopped using track pins many years ago !!

PPS XPS Foam (fireretardant/firefproofed buildong insulation)  is easily carved for 3D scenery, and is light in weight. Model railways do not need to be back nreaking !

 

OK I'm listening...…………….

Is there a thread on here which covers this in more detail??

I'm curious - how does copydex hold a curve in streamline flexible track without pins

[grriff]

Phil S's post is comprehensive but possibly scary if you are contemplating DCC. Let me give the basic view. My neighbour has an extensive layout, about 8ft by 10ft, more train set than model railway. He has about 10 locos on the layout at anyone time controlled by two NCE handsets. The layout has around 30 points, all operated manually. He is such a technophobe he won't even open the NCE manual.

I'm happy to help him because I get to play trains (and am given the occasional apple crumble). Where have I had to help?

Layout wiring: I've provided just two feeds to this big layout (!) with no running problems. All points (Peco setrack) are fitted with point clips. He needs to clean the track though.

DCC loco number: I have given him a step-by-step guide to change the loco address of new locos. This is the one 'complication' of DCC not required of DC and is essential as all new locos come with the address of 3. Programming this new number is ideally done with no other locos on the layout or on a special programming track. You can program 'on the main' but this is an additional complication. If all else fails we use the SprogII on my layout to read and write to the loco decoder.

DCC function numbers: New sound locos come with lots of bells and whistles (literally) and cab lighting, which is on function 13. I've had to reprogram his NCE handset so that the 'Option' button now can access functions 10 to 19. It's all in the manual but a bit teccy.

So that's the minimum you can get away with on DCC which is so much more flexible than DC when you have many locos on the same layout.  You don't need to operate point motors using DCC and in some cases it is probably easier not to. My neighbour is not using the full range of DCC functions but is very happy with the way his layout works.

[Phil S]

Flexi track can be 'pre-bent' by using a rail bender  ( something I started using 'in reverse' in G Scale, to straighten surplus Radius 1 curve to form straights for an industrial railway  ... then I bought myself an 00/H0 version )   It is where the fishplate(s) are that is the greatest problem, of course.

 

Alternatively a heavy weight  (I tend to have a few transformers or heavy locos around) will hold the track while the copydex dries.

This can take a couple of hours, or in the cold of wnter, overnight.   But as in real life, 'de stressing' by pre bending is the best option.

 

Equally you could experiment with the newer 'grab type' adhesives that are 'solvent free' ie in this case do not attack the XPS foam

For 'tight' flexi curves, you can also cut the inner web between sleepers  (as I do when straightening G Sclae radius 1 8-) )

 

A small screwdriver can also be used as a temporary anchor whilst the adhesive dries - inserted between, rather than trhough, the sleepers.

 

Note that when using Copydex Latex adhesive or similar: Use it in SPOTS - and do not spread it continuoously - however tempting - because if you change your mind, and want to lift a mountain or similar, that ou have joined this way - then the 'entire sheet' of copydex will stretch and try to pull its elf up - a sharp knife will, however, cut through it.       Separated pieces of copydex are eaily pulled off the XPS foam or track, reganing a clean smooth surface to fix down again.       

 

When it gets on your clothes - do not try to wipe it off - LEAVE IT TO DRY as a thick lump - then pull it off the next day, and you can use a solvent.

 

 

Alternatively you can consider using track like ROCOLINE -with trackbed  ( a rubbery ballasted track bed which also quietens the running ) and is available with preset radii from Roco R2 to R20 .... and I cut them to length as required to make transitin curves if a standard ength does not fit.

(Their points also have inbuilt frog switching, and the point motor fits within the ballast, so making overall constiruction much easier  - points are available with several rasii upto about 1.2m.

[rockershovel]

Re Griffin, above, I programme locos once, and once only, using the last three digits of the number on the cab. Since I rarely visit other layouts with them, or use their existing number when I do, that’s all that needs to be done. I do find that different locos, have very different characteristics; but as they were set that way by people whose knowledge considerably exceeds mine, I treat it as a challenge in learning to drive them individually. 

[halsey]

2 hours ago, Phil S said:

Depending on how you plan your scenery - all wiring CAN be 'above board' - in all senses of the phrase 8-)

If you wer to use a 1cm layer of XPS foam - over your existing surface, it would also help quieten the trains running  ( although a rigid ballast glue would then make it a bit louder again )

Then you can easily, from above the board, copy the Gas, Electricity Water Phone and Network Rail in 'digging down' to bury any wiring rather than trying to find a 'conveneient australian' working from the othe side of the world !  A 2cm layer would allow Peco type point motors to be fitted below points without encroaching on the wooden board.

 

Depending on how you have done your framing - you may wish to start by marking their position on the top surface - for those DEEP items like Dapol Signals or Train Tech 'analogue'  Signals

 

PS I use spots of copydex to secure the track - I stopped using track pins many years ago !!

PPS XPS Foam (fireretardant/firefproofed buildong insulation)  is easily carved for 3D scenery, and is light in weight. Model railways do not need to be back nreaking !

Are there different density grades? E bay seem to major on flooring uses - bearing in mind the scale of my layout app 9ft*10ft this will be quite an investment but it feels like a good idea - identified a bulk pack on Amazon reviewed by a number of people as good for modelling and baseboard covers - £65 delivered so not too bad.

Edited November 11, 2019 by halsey

[halsey]

10mm XPS now ordered from Amazon - this will take me on a new journey re fixings etc but has to be better than all that bending/kneeling.

I assume I lay a universal covering over the whole board area and glue it down with spray adhesive.

Can I use 14mm track pins either permanently or to hold whilst gluing??

Thanks all...………………………...

[boxbrownie]

21 minutes ago, halsey said:

10mm XPS now ordered from Amazon - this will take me on a new journey re fixings etc but has to be better than all that bending/kneeling.

I assume I lay a universal covering over the whole board area and glue it down with spray adhesive.

Can I use 14mm track pins either permanently or to hold whilst gluing??

Thanks all...………………………...

I'd be interested to know just how firm the foam is, I'd like to cover my baseboard all over with a layer as well for exactly the same reason, wiring for lighting etc......my board has to be sectional and I am worried the rail at the joints will not be firm enough on the foam to be in total alignment, I wonder if cork might be better in my situation?

[Nigelcliffe]

I've not looked into the foam in question.   But I'd be tempted to add a layer of thin ply for the track base - the sort of stuff aeromodellers use, about 1mm thick.  Then small dents in the foam won't disrupt the track base regularity. 

 

Adding to the light-weight, flexible materials:   the very light weight filler sold under the polycell brand at DIY sheds.  You'll recognise it when picking up a tin, it feels empty!  Works extremely well to create landscape shapes (can be carved and sanded when dry), and being flexible, doesn't tend to crack like regular plaster/Polyfilla.  

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

On 06/11/2019 at 14:39, rockershovel said:

 

It does a lot more than that. I spent a couple of afternoons at the club test track, working out a move by which a banker moved up to the rear of a moving train, simulated banking for a while, then dropped back. I can’t envisage how that would be done using DC analogue control. The Louth MPD layout comes to mind, with multiple engines on multiple tracks around the turntable - I’m sure that’s possible in analogue, but DCC is so much simpler. 

Have you seen Hills of the North.

 

On 06/11/2019 at 16:12, Oldddudders said:

And that is one of the key attractions for those who envisage complex operations on their layout - the ability to bring locos together, or to part them, or to operate them in multiple/tandem as described, anywhere on the layout, which DC only allows if section blocks are designed to permit that. The current popularity of TMD layouts, which can take up relatively little space but be packed with locos, is a classic example of a layout where DCC wins over DC - moving locos up and back, relative to each other, is easy. 

All my depot layouts were DC, yes multiple wires and switches but still cost less than fitting 200 decoders in my loco stock.

 

If you want lights, sound and action then DCC is for you.

 

If like me action is all that is required then DC is a cheaper route to go.

 

[jpendle]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

10mm XPS now ordered from Amazon - this will take me on a new journey re fixings etc but has to be better than all that bending/kneeling.

I assume I lay a universal covering over the whole board area and glue it down with spray adhesive.

Can I use 14mm track pins either permanently or to hold whilst gluing??

Thanks all...………………………...

Hi,

 

I use XPS foam as my baseboard, just the legs and frame are made of wood. It is rigid and will take track pins to hold your track in place, but you will need to glue the track down to make it permanent.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[halsey]

1 hour ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

I use XPS foam as my baseboard, just the legs and frame are made of wood. It is rigid and will take track pins to hold your track in place, but you will need to glue the track down to make it permanent.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

thanks and …..what glue did you use

[jpendle]

21 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

thanks and …..what glue did you use

I haven't got that far yet!

 

I'll be relying on the ballasting with dilute PVA to hold the track in place. Although as long as you don't mess with the track, the pins will hold it in place for quite a while, I started my layout 2 years ago and I still haven't ballasted or glued any track down.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

[rockershovel]

"Hills of the North"? Rejoice! 

[JimFin]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

 

thanks and …..what glue did you use

I used Gorilla wood glue, peco flexi onto cork. Weighted down overnight. Dries transparent.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, jpendle said:

I haven't got that far yet!

 

I'll be relying on the ballasting with dilute PVA to hold the track in place. Although as long as you don't mess with the track, the pins will hold it in place for quite a while, I started my layout 2 years ago and I still haven't ballasted or glued any track down.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

I prefer Copydex to PVA, mixed exactly the same, 50/50 with a drop of washing up liquid.

 

Advantages:

It dries as a latex/rubber so running is quieter & can withstand a little knocking/flexing without ballast falling off. PVA is a resin so it dries rock hard, making running noisy & brittle so any flexing causes small lumps to fall off.

Any excess or track join can be cut away very easily & tidily.

It dries slightly brown. PVA makes granite ballast dry sightly green. This is not a problem if you intend to make the track completely filthy but lighter weathering is better started from a more accurate colour.

It dries faster than PVA, but not too fast.

 

Disadvantages:

If you need to drill a hole through it, it can wrap itself around the drill bit.

It is more expensive than PVA.

 

[jpendle]

44 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I prefer Copydex to PVA, mixed exactly the same, 50/50 with a drop of washing up liquid.

 

Advantages:

It dries as a latex/rubber so running is quieter & can withstand a little knocking/flexing without ballast falling off. PVA is a resin so it dries rock hard, making running noisy & brittle so any flexing causes small lumps to fall off.

Any excess or track join can be cut away very easily & tidily.

It dries slightly brown. PVA makes granite ballast dry sightly green. This is not a problem if you intend to make the track completely filthy but lighter weathering is better started from a more accurate colour.

It dries faster than PVA, but not too fast.

 

Disadvantages:

If you need to drill a hole through it, it can wrap itself around the drill bit.

It is more expensive than PVA.

 

And I'm not sure that I can get Copydex here in the US, although I haven't looked.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[JimFin]

2 hours ago, jpendle said:

I'll be relying on the ballasting with dilute PVA

 

A good alternative is artists matt medium acrylic 50/50 with water. Put the ballast down and dribble the mix on, similar method to PVA but the matt medium takes a few days to dry and when it does, remains slightly plastic, you can make some adjustments if required as opposed to PVA which becomes rock hard.