LNER empty trains collided, service disruptions expected

[Zomboid]

There's a load of information that nobody on this board knows (or at least is permitted to say publicly) that will explain what happened and why.

 

All we can do is engage in uninformed speculation.

[Jaggzuk]

Track layout can be seen here:

 

https://goo.gl/maps/XbYZWPrXq2YJtrsg9

 

[russ p]

1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

There's a load of information that nobody on this board knows (or at least is permitted to say publicly) that will explain what happened and why.

 

All we can do is engage in uninformed speculation.

 

 

What happened is simple,  the HST on the inbound line to Neville hill stopped at the stop board. 

The 800 following on a permissive block 15mph line didn't! 

The elephant in the room is what has gone on with the 800 further down the train, it's not on pointwork so that deflection should not have happened 

[JeffP]

We've been hearing on here about possible slow speed braking problems with the 800's.

Is this an example of it?

[Oldddudders]

5 minutes ago, JeffP said:

We've been hearing on here about possible slow speed braking problems with the 800's.

Is this an example of it?

Good point, but we aren't about to find out. Collisions do happen due to other than driver error. 

[Hobby]

20 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

All we can do is engage in uninformed speculation.

 

And we will...

[Jaggzuk]

As a general question are Azuma sets being maintained/stabled at Nevill Hill overnight or just at Doncaster IEP Depot?

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

 

Where is the crossover in the picture that the 800 was going over? It looks like plain line that its sat on to me. And that really is a worrying outcome....

 

Andy G

The Yorkshire Post video (posted earlier in this thread by Apollo, reposted below for convenience) clearly shows the rear of the 80x is still on the other track.

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport/shocking-photographs-show-horrific-damage-to-azuma-lner-train-following-leeds-station-depot-crash-1-10103283

[uax6]

Ok, but the majority of the 800 was on straight track, so for two of those vehicle to come off in the fashion they have is a serious issue.....

 

Andy G

[John M Upton]

Patch up the HST, she will be good for another twenty years and dump that nasty plastic DfT designed thing in the bin where it belongs...

[298]

14 hours ago, JeffP said:

We've been hearing on here about possible slow speed braking problems with the 800's.

Is this an example of it?

 

I'd say it's more of a problem using goods train operating methods from a Victorian era. Hitachi must be wondering what they've brought into as in a few weeks time that could have been two trains that they are unable to provide for service. Crash worthiness and vehicle stability is very important but shouldn't be relied upon when it's better to stop objects smacking into each other in the first place....

[Hobby]

Yes, the British network must be a bit of a culture shock compared with what they are used to over in Japan!

[caradoc]

19 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Yes, the British network must be a bit of a culture shock compared with what they are used to over in Japan!

 

Indeed, when they are used to things like this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment

[Oldddudders]

23 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Yes, the British network must be a bit of a culture shock compared with what they are used to over in Japan!

Possibly so, poor dears. But the customer is always right. If you want to sell there , you adapt. 

[4630]

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Possibly so, poor dears. But the customer is always right. If you want to sell there , you adapt. 

 

And Hitachi have had time to adapt to the operating environment and experience on the British network as their class 395s have been working here in the south east for the last ten years.

[Covkid]

13 hours ago, Jaggzuk said:

As a general question are Azuma sets being maintained/stabled at Nevill Hill overnight or just at Doncaster IEP Depot?

 

Some are being serviced (probably cleaned CETd and tanked) at NL overnight. As an example I believe the Kings Cross-Skipton in the evening detaches a 5 car at Leeds which goes onto NL. The other 5 car returns from Skipton and also goes onto NL. Not sure if there is also a Bradford in the evening that does similar. There has been a morning Bradford FS-Kings Cross which has been 9 car and / or 2x5. Perhaps these run ECS from NL in the morning

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, 4630 said:

 

And Hitachi have had time to adapt to the operating environment and experience on the British network as their class 395s have been working here in the south east for the last ten years.

 

Even longer.

Remember the converted AM10 which roamed around - used a 750V power car when running on the SR metals. AIUI this was the "V" train to validate Hitachi understanding of BR routes.

[stewartingram]

For what it is worth, one of my former colleagues was a self-employed contracter, who had worked on snagging the 395s when they were first introduced. He told me a few times how, contrary to the Hitachi etc publicity, how sh** they were! (his words...). Apparently poor construction/quality control, and some very crude design features. He did try to show me some video footage of these "features" on his phone, but frankly it was beyond me. Make of it what you will.

 

Stewart

[Glorious NSE]

18 hours ago, uax6 said:

Ok, but the majority of the 800 was on straight track, so for two of those vehicle to come off in the fashion they have is a serious issue.....

The majority was, absolutely -  but we don't know that those two derailed cars were, because we don't know what the point of impact was.

Just because the two trains are stationary in those pictures doesn't mean that one, the other, or both have are stopped at the initial point of impact.

 

[russ p]

At 15mph the 800 isn't going to push an HST very far with its brakes applied. 

Those coaches that are out of line have jumped off and tried to rotate on their drawbars 

If this had been at high speed there is a chance the coaches would have ended up stacking side to side NOT a good outcome 

[Glorious NSE]

10 minutes ago, russ p said:

At 15mph the 800 isn't going to push an HST very far with its brakes applied. 

Those coaches that are out of line have jumped off and tried to rotate on their drawbars 

If this had been at high speed there is a chance the coaches would have ended up stacking side to side NOT a good outcome 

Hold on just a minute.

We don't know the actual speed of the impact (and no, this is NOT me speculating either way!)
We don't know whether one or both trains had brakes applied or released at the point of impact (Likewise, NOT a speculation).
We do know the 80x was obviously moving, but we don't know the speed.
We don't know whether the HST was stationary or moving, and if so what it's speed was.

We don't know the actual point of collision.
Because of that we don't know where the derailed coaches were at the time of impact.
We don't know the derailment mechanism of the derailed axles.

Ref high speed incidents:

We do know for a demonstrable fact from previous instances that when an HST is involved in a high speed collisions it's coaches can also stack up - (Southall, Ufton Nervet are examples). 

That is no criticism of the HST, it's physics being physics.

Northallerton did not involve a collision, nor was the HST there involved in traversing a 15mph crossover at the time.

Suggesting that Northallerton (a high speed plain line derailment) would have turned out fundamentally differently because of what a minor depot rear end collision looks like from a newspaper image seems to be a gigantic stretch, without knowing all of the above.

Again - can't we wait and see?

[APOLLO]

Personally I think no British train will ever surpass the HST and Mk 3 coach for high speed comfort, longevity & perhaps safety. The Pendolino involved in the Grayrigg derailment stood up pretty well also, as that incident occurred at 95 mph, and the train went down an embankment, couplings parted etc, though sadly with one fatality and a number of injuries.

 

I hope the many £millions invested in these 800 trains will turn out to be money well spent. Time, and the incident report will tell.

 

Brit15

 

[Reorte]

18 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Personally I think no British train will ever surpass the HST and Mk 3 coach for high speed comfort, longevity & perhaps safety. The Pendolino involved in the Grayrigg derailment stood up pretty well also, as that incident occurred at 95 mph, and the train went down an embankment, couplings parted etc, though sadly with one fatality and a number of injuries.

I doubt it's possible to build anything that could come off a line and down an embankment at 95 mph and not have injuries and perhaps fatalities just from the shaking about that'll happen. I don't really like Pendolinos much but I have to respect their crash resistance from that.

[Hobby]

Withdrawn as the post it relates to was.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Hobby

[russ p]

The mk3 coach and its derivatives are probably one of the safest passenger vehicles in the world apparently its strength is the way in which panels are joined 

Was told a few years ago that this process was patented by BREL so when metcamm built the mk4s and night stock they reverted to the mk2 design. 

Mind that must have been pretty good two as mk4s have stood up well in crashes