Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[7APT7]

12 hours ago, APT-P said:

 

All the TU's had red tartan (Maclaine of Lochbuie) covers but on the wider 2+1 first class style seats. First picture is a still from Round Trip to Glasgow and second is by Chris Boyce.

 

 

Hi Rob

 

Ah brilliant, cheers for that information mate, much appreciated and clears that question up for me, and for a few others to, no doubt.

 

Regards

Jamie

[7APT7]

7 hours ago, DavidBird said:

so to model the first two images might involve taking a razor saw to a new and expensive model.

 

WHAT.... Eh... YOU MAD... or Just Brave lol haha

 

7 hours ago, DavidBird said:

That's what the old Hornby model is for...

 

Haha

 

Yeah... like a slow motion saying.... NOOOOOOOOoooooooo 

 

Only TAKE A RAZOR to do that on Two Possibilities ONLY....

1 - Only if it's necessary, and

2 - Only as a last resort ONLY.... haha

 

Regards

Jamie

 

[7APT7]

Hi All, some Extra Information.

 

Taken from British Rail Coaching Stock  (Book) 1980 RCTS

 

ADVANCED PASSENGER TRAIN (APT-P)

Six half trains are being formed, each of which will consist of six trailers articulated on seven bogies plus one power car.  Whne in service two power cars will be adjacent and will share one pantograph for the 25kV overhead line.  In addition, two spare trailers have been built; one for each end of the six-car articulated set.  These trains were built at Derby and their lot numbers are included with other details below.

 

DTS    Lot      30923              LE2.01.0A      33.7T.              52S.     1L.       BT12a end bogie.

TS                   30924              LH02.01.0A    24.0T.             72S      2L        BT11 articulated bogies.

TRSB              30925              LK02.01.0A    26.7T.              28S      1L.       BT11 articulated bogies.

TU                  30959              LH4.01.0A      24.1T.             43U     2L.        BT11 articulated bogies.

TF                   30926              LH1.01.0A      24.3T.             47F.     2L.       BT11 articulated bogies.

RBF                30927              LJ1.01.0A       31.9T.              25F.     1L        BT12aend bogie.

M                    30928              LC5.01.0A      67.5T.              -           -          BP17a bogies.

 

The formations which are listed below are as last noted and the allocations to units of some cars is not yet apparent.  It will be seen that these vehicles have not been put together according to the final digit of their numbers.  At the end of 1979 only the following were in stock: DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20). The statistics below apply to each half train.

 

Glass 370: DTS + TS + TRSB + TU + TF + TBF + M (6 Half Trains + 2 Spare Trailers)

Int. 1978,        4000 h.p,         232T,   72F,     152S,   43U,    EH,      FAC,   EPB,    PA,      EC,      AWS.

 

370 001 GW   DTS 48101       TS 48206         TRSB 48405              TU 48303        TF 48505         TBF 48601            M 49001

370 002 GW   DTS 48102       TS 48202         TRSB 48406              TU 48306        TF 48506         TBF 48602             M 49002 

370 003 GW   DTS 48103        TS 48204        TRSB 48401              TU 48304        TF 48501         TBF 48603            M 49003*

370 004 GW   DTS 48104        TS 4820           TRSB 48402              TU 48305        TF 48502         TBF 48604             M 49004

370 005 GW   DTS 48105        TS 4820           TRSB 48403              TU 48301        TF 48503         TBF 48605             M 49005

370 006 GW   DTS 48106        TS 4820           TRSB 48404              TU 48302        TF 48504         TBF 48606              M 49006

Spare    GW   DTS 48107 (370 007)                                                                                                      TBF 48607           

* 49003 is Named ‘City of Derby’

TS 48201 would have been one of the 4820’s but wasn’t confirmed in the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS at the time.

-

Looking else where in the Book:-

Depot(s) GW = Glasgow Shields Road.

 

End of Book Information.

 

Extra Information.

In service 1972–1976 (APT-E)

In service 1980–1986 (APT-P)

 

I find it very hard to believe or just to take in that the APT-P information (Above) is from the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS, when you consider the 'In Service' Years were 1980-1986 (APT-P) and yet a Total of just 20 vehicles (See... RED Numbers in the Above List) were left running until 1986 when it was then scrapped, although some must have been Stored for a good 5 years, (See... BLACK Numbers in the Above List had already been scrapped or Stored as few In Black are now at Crewe, which why I say Stored),

 

Yet this is as stated in the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS, (Above) Rather sad really,

 

R4970 BR APT-U Ex-TS 48204 Development Vehicle 48204 / 977527 Single Coach Pack

 

Regards

Jamie

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by 7APT7

[7APT7]

Interesting...

 

Only the Highlighted Apt-P Number (Below) are the ones (Seven) that are now preserved at 'Crewe Heritage Centre'.

 

Not even 49003, the one of (Six) Centre Power Cars produced and the only one that was Named ‘City of Derby’ was also scrapped. While M 49006 was the N-DM was the Power Unit on loan at Coventry and was only saved shortly before the DJM Open Day, it arrived the week before, while M 49002 makes up part of the Six-Car Rake at Crewe. The Scrapping of the APT-P was in 1987.

 

Glass 370: DTS + TS + TRSB + TU + TF + TBF + M (6 Half Trains + 2 Spare Trailers)

Int. 1978,        4000 h.p,         232T,   72F,     152S,   43U,    EH,      FAC,   EPB,    PA,      EC,      AWS.

 

370 001 GW   DTS 48101                TS 48206             TRSB 48405                TU 48303        TF 48505            TBF 48601                 M 49001

370 002 GW   DTS 48102                TS 48202             TRSB 48406                TU 48306        TF 48506            TBF 48602 Crewe    M 49002 Crewe

370 003 GW   DTS 48103 Crewe   TS 48204             TRSB 48401                TU 48304        TF 48501            TBF 48603 Crewe    M 49003*

370 004 GW   DTS 48104                 TS 4820               TRSB 48402                TU 48305        TF 48502            TBF 48604                  M 49004

370 005 GW   DTS 48105                 TS 4820               TRSB 48403                TU 48301        TF 48503            TBF 48605                  M 49005

370 006 GW   DTS 48106 Crewe    TS 4820               TRSB 48404 Crewe  TU 48302        TF 48504            TBF 48606                  M 49006 Crewe

Spare    GW   DTS 48107 (370 007)                                                                                                                       TBF 48607     

* 49003 is Named ‘City of Derby’

 

48201 is one of the 4820’s but wasn’t confirmed in this book

Depot(s) GW = Glasgow Shields Road

 

Regards

Jamie

 

 

[John ks]

49 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

Hi All, some Extra Information.

 

Taken from British Rail Coaching Stock  (Book) 1980 RCTS

 

ADVANCED PASSENGER TRAIN (APT-P)

Six half trains are being formed, each of which will consist of six trailers articulated on seven bogies plus one power car.  Whne in service two power cars will be adjacent and will share one pantograph for the 25kV overhead line.  In addition, two spare trailers have been built; one for each end of the six-car articulated set.  These trains were built at Derby and their lot numbers are included with other details below.

 

DTS    Lot      30923              LE2.01.0A      33.7T.              52S.     1L.       BT12a end bogie.

TS                   30924              LH02.01.0A    24.0T.             72S      2L        BT11 articulated bogies.

TRSB              30925              LK02.01.0A    26.7T.              28S      1L.       BT11 articulated bogies.

TU                  30959              LH4.01.0A      24.1T.             43U     2L.        BT11 articulated bogies.

TF                   30926              LH1.01.0A      24.3T.             47F.     2L.       BT11 articulated bogies.

RBF                30927              LJ1.01.0A       31.9T.              25F.     1L        BT12aend bogie.

M                    30928              LC5.01.0A      67.5T.              -           -          BP17a bogies.

 

The formations which are listed below are as last noted and the allocations to units of some cars is not yet apparent.  It will be seen that these vehicles have not been put together according to the final digit of their numbers.  At the end of 1979 only the following were in stock: DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20). The statistics below apply to each half train.

 

Glass 370: DTS + TS + TRSB + TU + TF + TBF + M (6 Half Trains + 2 Spare Trailers)

Int. 1978,        4000 h.p,         232T,   72F,     152S,   43U,    EH,      FAC,   EPB,    PA,      EC,      AWS.

 

370 001 GW   DTS 48101       TS 48206         TRSB 48405              TU 48303        TF 48505         TBF 48601            M 49001

370 002 GW   DTS 48102       TS 48202         TRSB 48406              TU 48306        TF 48506         TBF 48602             M 49002 

370 003 GW   DTS 48103        TS 48204        TRSB 48401              TU 48304        TF 48501         TBF 48603            M 49003*

370 004 GW   DTS 48104        TS 4820           TRSB 48402              TU 48305        TF 48502         TBF 48604             M 49004

370 005 GW   DTS 48105        TS 4820           TRSB 48403              TU 48301        TF 48503         TBF 48605             M 49005

370 006 GW   DTS 48106        TS 4820           TRSB 48404              TU 48302        TF 48504         TBF 48606              M 49006

Spare    GW   DTS 48107 (370 007)                                                                                                      TBF 48607           

* 49003 is Named ‘City of Derby’

TS 48201 would have been one of the 4820’s but wasn’t confirmed in the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS at the time.

-

Looking else where in the Book:-

Depot(s) GW = Glasgow Shields Road.

 

End of Book Information.

 

Extra Information.

In service 1972–1976 (APT-E)

In service 1980–1986 (APT-P)

 

I find it very hard to believe or just to take in that the APT-P information (Above) is from the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS, when you consider the 'In Service' Years were 1980-1986 (APT-P) and yet a Total of just 20 vehicles (See... RED Numbers in the Above List) were left running until 1986 when it was then scrapped, although some must have been Stored for a good 5 years, (See... BLACK Numbers in the Above List had already been scrapped or Stored as few In Black are now at Crewe, which why I say Stored),

 

Yet this is as stated in the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS, (Above) Rather sad really,

 

R4970 BR APT-U Ex-TS 48204 Development Vehicle 48204 / 977527 Single Coach Pack

 

Regards

Jamie

 

In the following quote are you saying that at the end 1979 All but 20 had already been scraped?

Quote from Jamie "At the end of 1979 only the following were in stock: DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20). The statistics below apply to each half train."

I would take that to mean that 20 were in stock & the rest were still being built.

I was also of the belief that all cars survived until the end of service in 1986.(if I am wrong then someone please correct me)

Regarding the APT-E if by in service you meant carrying fare paying passengers then it never did.

John

[7APT7]

16 hours ago, John ks said:

The formations which are listed below are as last noted and the allocations to units of some cars is not yet apparent.  It will be seen that these vehicles have not been put together according to the final digit of their numbers.  At the end of 1979 only the following were in stock: DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20). The statistics below apply to each half train.

 

Hi John ks

 

The Quote Above (is, in Part) is taken from the Railways Book Seen at the bottom of this post... ( bought off eBay few days ago )

The Quote Below is the FULL QUOTE in the Book 'Word for Word' (which the Quote you have pointed out to me)

 

17 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

Taken from British Rail Coaching Stock  (Book) 1980 RCTS

 

ADVANCED PASSENGER TRAIN (APT-P)

Six half trains are being formed, each of which will consist of six trailers articulated on seven bogies plus one power car.  Whne in service two power cars will be adjacent and will share one pantograph for the 25kV overhead line.  In addition, two spare trailers have been built; one for each end of the six-car articulated set.  These trains were built at Derby and their lot numbers are included with other details below.

 

DTS    Lot      30923              LE2.01.0A      33.7T.              52S.     1L.       BT12a end bogie.

TS                   30924              LH02.01.0A    24.0T.             72S      2L        BT11 articulated bogies.

TRSB              30925              LK02.01.0A    26.7T.              28S      1L.       BT11 articulated bogies.

TU                  30959              LH4.01.0A      24.1T.             43U     2L.        BT11 articulated bogies.

TF                   30926              LH1.01.0A      24.3T.             47F.     2L.       BT11 articulated bogies.

RBF                30927              LJ1.01.0A       31.9T.              25F.     1L        BT12aend bogie.

M                    30928              LC5.01.0A      67.5T.              -           -          BP17a bogies.

 

The formations which are listed below are as last noted and the allocations to units of some cars is not yet apparent.  It will be seen that these vehicles have not been put together according to the final digit of their numbers.  At the end of 1979 only the following were in stock: DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20). The statistics below apply to each half train.

 

Glass 370: DTS + TS + TRSB + TU + TF + TBF + M (6 Half Trains + 2 Spare Trailers)

Int. 1978,        4000 h.p,         232T,   72F,     152S,   43U,    EH,      FAC,   EPB,    PA,      EC,      AWS.

 

370 001 GW   DTS 48101       TS 48206         TRSB 48405              TU 48303        TF 48505         TBF 48601            M 49001

370 002 GW   DTS 48102       TS 48202         TRSB 48406              TU 48306        TF 48506         TBF 48602             M 49002 

370 003 GW   DTS 48103        TS 48204        TRSB 48401              TU 48304        TF 48501         TBF 48603            M 49003*

370 004 GW   DTS 48104        TS 4820           TRSB 48402              TU 48305        TF 48502         TBF 48604             M 49004

370 005 GW   DTS 48105        TS 4820           TRSB 48403              TU 48301        TF 48503         TBF 48605             M 49005

370 006 GW   DTS 48106        TS 4820           TRSB 48404              TU 48302        TF 48504         TBF 48606              M 49006

Spare    GW   DTS 48107 (370 007)                                                                                                      TBF 48607           

* 49003 is Named ‘City of Derby’

TS 48201 would have been one of the 4820’s but wasn’t confirmed in the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS at the time.

-

Looking else where in the Book:-

Depot(s) GW = Glasgow Shields Road.

 

End of Book Information.

 

17 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

At the end of 1979 only the following were in stock: DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20). 

 

All the Above Quote that I said, is... as it is written and taken from the book itself below... with the exception of the Highlighted Red Text, which I highlighted in Red purposely to point out the Total of 20 APT-P Still Running in the 1980 in the book and worded above taken from the Book that is Pictured below.

 

That is how I have read it to be... am I incorrect...?

(if you ADD all the Numbers:-) DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (will Equal 20, just as the book says)

 

Confusion may be where I did say Scrapped in above POSTS as appose to saying what I guess I should have said... Stored, Stored should have been the more correct word to use, and I say that based on that after I also pointed out in the ( next post down ) which APT-P Coaches are now preserved at Crewe Heritage Centre relative to the numbers that I had made a note at the DJM Open Day. (using all the Photos I had taken into account in my own Photos) 

 

It was Only when I was writing in the Next Post, I noticed that the ones I said were scrapped (Left in Black Ink) obviously couldn't have been scrapped, as some of those in Black Ink are at Crewe to this very day. So I take it from the book, that they must have gone into storage somewhere for the best part of 5 years or so years, As I then read looking it up in Google, (and I'm trying to find where I read it) It said that the Scrapping of the APT-P was not confirmed, until it was seen at Booths at Rotherham in 1987 being Scrapped with some 36 APT-P Coaches being scrapped. 

 

Whether they were stores at Depot(s) GW = Glasgow Shields Road, as they all seemed to be based at GW according to the Book. (I have also read and I will post it when I'v found where I read it), that the same 20 APT-P Coach left in service made an appearance in 1984 unexpectedly for several months as to whether they should keep both the APT-P running parallel to the New HST125 InterCity, released later and the subject was divided with more opting for the HST125 InterCity over keeping the APT-P running side by side, and it's final APT-P Running was in the winter of 1985/6 where the Scrapping of the APT-P was not confirmed, until it was seen at Booths at Rotherham in 1987 being scrapped.

 

I also said about TS 48201 (the Book only states 48206, 48202, 48204) would have been one of the 4820’s but wasn’t confirmed in the British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS at the time, (also taken from the Book and seen above in my Word for Word Quote) so were the APT-P TS 4820 Numbers were either awaiting to be allocated there final end digit number, in this case 48201, 48203 and 48205) of the Three TS Coached marked as 4820 Only as the numbers 48202, 48204, and 48206 were all ready in the Book.

 

I have now ordered but I am awaiting for the 1978 and 1979 of the books to the 1980 book below and also those up to 1987 to see how those are all worded with regards to the APT-P's existence in each of those years Books of the British Rail Coaching Stock 1979, 1981-87.

 

 

Perhaps I, like You John ks was quiet shocked to read it, as it was written (Above), hence I copied it Word for Word, so I could be miss quoted from what the book says. Perhaps you read it differently to me... I'm be interested if your reading it differs from how I have...?

 

I wrote it Word for Word from in the Above Attached FULL QUOTE from where I say... ADVANCED PASSENGER TRAIN (APT-P)

down to where I say... End of Book Information.

Hope that make sense or answers your question, I am looking for ward to see what the 1979 Book as to say.

 

Regards

Jamie

[7APT7]

British Rail Coaching Stock (Book) 1980 RCTS

 

Information in the Book on Page 10 (Just as I Fully Quoted in Previous Posts)

 

Looking else where in the Book:-

Depot(s) GW = Glasgow Shields Road. (as can be seen in the Scan above)

 

I have put the Abbreviation Code in for GW which is in the First few Pages of the book along with all the Coaching Stock Abbreviations E.G BSK, BFK, TSO etc....

 

Hope this clear's up any confusion... 

 

Regards

Jamie

 

 

 

 

[stovepipe]

I'm a bit confused by this interpretation - I also have this book. The stock is clearly being introduced at the time of publication. Of the 44 vehicles being built, only 20 have been introduced to service according to the book. In fact I saw a good number of the remaining vehicles at Crewe during 1980, passing through the station.

 

Information from the MLI magazine series show that the non-powered cars were built in batches of the same type at Litchurch Lane, with the all the TSs arriving first, followed by TBFs, DTSs, TFs, TRSBs and finally the TUs. You can see from the lot numbers that the TUs were ordered much later. The motor cars were built at Derby works, and the first 49002, wasn't introduced until after about half the cars had been completed.

 

Given the production sequence and the hassle in re-marshalling articulated cars, it is not surprising that they rarely ran in complete matching number sets, as the RCTS books shows. Also consider there were three phases of tilt packages developed before public operation was attempted in 1981, and that not all cars would be at the same stage of development at any given time.

 

 

[7APT7]

5 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

I'm a bit confused by this interpretation - I also have this book. The stock is clearly being introduced at the time of publication. Of the 44 vehicles being built, only 20 have been introduced to service according to the book. In fact I saw a good number of the remaining vehicles at Crewe during 1980, passing through the station.

 

Information from the MLI magazine series show that the non-powered cars were built in batches of the same type at Litchurch Lane, with the all the TSs arriving first, followed by TBFs, DTSs, TFs, TRSBs and finally the TUs. You can see from the lot numbers that the TUs were ordered much later. The motor cars were built at Derby works, and the first 49002, wasn't introduced until after about half the cars had been completed.

 

Given the production sequence and the hassle in re-marshalling articulated cars, it is not surprising that they rarely ran in complete matching number sets, as the RCTS books shows. Also consider there were three phases of tilt packages developed before public operation was attempted in 1981, and that not all cars would be at the same stage of development at any given time.

 

 

 

Yes, I partly understood it that it was still producing them due to the Three 4820 number had not been allocated yet, as they where still being built at this point, as the Build years are still within that that same time period.

 

55 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

 DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (will Equal 20, just as the book says

 

The APT-P was unveiled to the public on 7 June 1978 and continued to be used for testing into 1986

 

Thanks for confirmation stovepipe

 

Regards

Jamie

[7APT7]

5 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

I'm a bit confused by this interpretation - I also have this book. The stock is clearly being introduced at the time of publication. Of the 44 vehicles being built, only 20 have been introduced to service according to the book. In fact I saw a good number of the remaining vehicles at Crewe during 1980, passing through the station.

 

Information from the MLI magazine series show that the non-powered cars were built in batches of the same type at Litchurch Lane, with the all the TSs arriving first, followed by TBFs, DTSs, TFs, TRSBs and finally the TUs. You can see from the lot numbers that the TUs were ordered much later. The motor cars were built at Derby works, and the first 49002, wasn't introduced until after about half the cars had been completed.

 

Given the production sequence and the hassle in re-marshalling articulated cars, it is not surprising that they rarely ran in complete matching number sets, as the RCTS books shows. Also consider there were three phases of tilt packages developed before public operation was attempted in 1981, and that not all cars would be at the same stage of development at any given time.

 

 

 

Yes, I partly understood it that it was still producing them due to the Three 4820 number had not been allocated yet, as they where still being built at this point, as the Build years are still within that that same time period.

 

55 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

 DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (will Equal 20, just as the book says

 

The APT-P was unveiled to the public on 7 June 1978 and continued to be used for testing into 1986

 

Thanks for confirmation stovepipe

 

Regards

Jamie

[7APT7]

1 hour ago, stovepipe said:

I'm a bit confused by this interpretation - I also have this book. The stock is clearly being introduced at the time of publication. Of the 44 vehicles being built, only 20 have been introduced to service according to the book. In fact I saw a good number of the remaining vehicles at Crewe during 1980, passing through the station.

 

Information from the MLI magazine series show that the non-powered cars were built in batches of the same type at Litchurch Lane, with the all the TSs arriving first, followed by TBFs, DTSs, TFs, TRSBs and finally the TUs. You can see from the lot numbers that the TUs were ordered much later. The motor cars were built at Derby works, and the first 49002, wasn't introduced until after about half the cars had been completed.

 

Given the production sequence and the hassle in re-marshalling articulated cars, it is not surprising that they rarely ran in complete matching number sets, as the RCTS books shows. Also consider there were three phases of tilt packages developed before public operation was attempted in 1981, and that not all cars would be at the same stage of development at any given time.

 

 

 

Hi stovepipe

Thanks for the Information, so you are reading it as... The stock is clearly being introduced at the time of publication.

 

2 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

At the end of 1979 only the following were in stock: DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20).

 

where as I have read it as pass-tenths and not still to come... that is where I am going wrong (Doh! Sorry Folks) and Thanks stovepipe

 

So where it says "At end of 1979 only the following were in stock" then It lists the 20 Numbers in MY Quote Above which are the Number in RED as seen in the MY Quote Below... 

 

I Read this to be...

That EVERY NUMBER Below whether in Black Ink or Red Ink have been built and will soon be running as a Test Train and In Service.  The QUOTE "At end of 1979 only the following were in stock" the word "ONLY" in that statement along with "the following were in stock" that the RED Numbers are the ONLY APT-P Coaches that will be running until they ended there life as a Test Train and In Service in 1986. 

 

ONLY then... the physical Scrapping of the APT-P was confirmed when it was seen at Booths at Rotherham in 1987 being physically scrapped. (Does that make sense...?) That is how I have read it to be.... 

 

2 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

370 001 GW   DTS 48101       TS 48206         TRSB 48405      TU 48303       TF 48505         TBF 48601         M 49001

370 002 GW   DTS 48102       TS 48202         TRSB 48406      TU 48306       TF 48506         TBF 48602         M 49002 

370 003 GW   DTS 48103        TS 48204        TRSB 48401      TU 48304       TF 48501         TBF 48603         M 49003*

370 004 GW   DTS 48104        TS 4820           TRSB 48402      TU 48305       TF 48502         TBF 48604         M 49004

370 005 GW   DTS 48105        TS 4820           TRSB 48403      TU 48301       TF 48503         TBF 48605         M 49005

370 006 GW   DTS 48106        TS 4820           TRSB 48404      TU 48302       TF 48504         TBF 48606          M 49006

Spare    GW   DTS 48107 (370 007)                                                                                             TBF 48607           

* 49003 is Named ‘City of Derby’

 

So all the Numbers (Above) in the List were built at this point "At end of 1979" as only the Numbers in RED continued to run.

 

Regards

Jamie

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by 7APT7

[stovepipe]

No, because as I said, I personally observed later cars not in your red list running through Crewe station on test, and also there are plenty of photos showing all the DTS vehicles being used.

 

Also why would they build 44 vehicles and only use 20 of them? The last power car wasn't introduced until May 1980 and it took until then for full sets to be formed up.

 

And from then on they were all used until the the APT testing programme was scaled back sometime in 1984.

[7APT7]

10 hours ago, stovepipe said:

No, because as I said, I personally observed later cars not in your red list running through Crewe station on test, and also there are plenty of photos showing all the DTS vehicles being used.

 

Also why would they build 44 vehicles and only use 20 of them? The last power car wasn't introduced until May 1980 and it took until then for full sets to be formed up.

 

And from then on they were all used until the the APT testing programme was scaled back sometime in 1984.

 

Hi stovepipe

 

Yes, Past Tenths as I said, is where I was going wrong as some Coaches wasn't adding up, like you said... there were some in RED that were still running so you back that comment up for me... and again some in Black are to this day sitting at Crewe as part of the only 7 APT-P Cars remaining and preserved at Crewe Heritage Centre.

 

Plus, the Build date didn't add up either, as again they were still building... hence the pointing out of the three TS 4820# missing there last digit was still to be assigned...  which confused me and didn't add up due to looking at it as pass tenths and why would they continue to add the last 3 (digit) to the Three TS APT-P Coach aka 4820# if at that point was wrote off as "Scrap" anyway.

 

Plus, TS 48201 [is One of the 20] (as the Book only states 48201, 48202, 48206) which would leave 48203, 48204, and 48205 as the Three Remaining 4820 numbers, still to be allocated, Hence, the QUOTE (in the Book) " the allocations to units of some cars is not yet apparent.  It will be seen that these vehicles have not been put together according to the final digit of their numbers. " which is TS 48201/2/6 the Three Remaining 4820 numbers.

On 09/02/2020 at 03:25, 7APT7 said:

DTS 48101-4, TS 48201/2/6, TU 48301/2, 48401, TF 48501/2, RBF 48601/2/3, M 48001-5 (Total 20). 

 

Thanks again stovepipe, I know where I was going wrong....

 

Regards

Jamie

[Colin_McLeod]

Past tense.     

[7APT7]

10 hours ago, stovepipe said:

And from then on they were all used until the the APT testing programme was scaled back sometime in 1984.

 

Interesting, I wonder at what point did 48204 (and One of the Hornby APT-U Ex-TS Coach Available) get converted as you say "APT testing programme was scaled back sometime in 1984." and as 48204 was one of the Three 4820 Numbers, was the APT-U Ex-TS being converted at this point in the 1980 Book...? with 4 years testing of it until they scaled back sometime in 1984.

 

Regards

Jamie

[7APT7]

1 minute ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Past tense.     

 

Thanks Colin,

I think in confusing myself I was confusing other in the way I worded it... lol (Hope you are well mate)

I have 1978, 1979 and 1981 books till to arrive to I will put those up as and when at some point... out of Interest.

 

Regards

Jamie

[stovepipe]

10 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

 

Interesting, I wonder at what point did 48204 (and One of the Hornby APT-U Ex-TS Coach Available) get converted as you say "APT testing programme was scaled back sometime in 1984." and as 48204 was one of the Three 4820 Numbers, was the APT-U Ex-TS being converted at this point in the 1980 Book...? with 4 years testing of it until they scaled back sometime in 1984.

 

Regards

Jamie

 

I'm certainly not a font of APT knowledge, though I have done some research, so I can get my order right give certain space constraints. I'm only approximating when the APT programme was scaled back from when the 10-car relief workings ceased running. There is a quite expensive 2nd hand book 'APT A Promise Unfulfilled' which may have the answers you seek. Could anyone comment whether it is worth getting?

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

Available on Amazon c £30

 

 

[7APT7]

49 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Available on Amazon c £30

 

 

 

Hi Colin

 

Thanks bud, that's great, I was about to check Amazon as non are on eBay...

 

Regards

Jamie

 

[stovepipe]

There is also the 'APT: The Untold Story' by David Clough,

 

.....though I have to say in both books I've read of his, I found my opinion diverging somewhat.

[stovepipe]

4 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

 

Hi Colin

 

Thanks bud, that's great, I was about to check Amazon as non are on eBay...

 

Regards

Jamie

 

 

Are you sure about that?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Advanced-Passenger-Train-A-Promise-Unfulfilled-Williams-L-H-Good-Condition/362848222291?epid=87205980&hash=item547b707c53:i:362848222291

 

Quite a lot for 112 pages though.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by stovepipe
add

[7APT7]

18 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

 

Are you sure about that?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Advanced-Passenger-Train-A-Promise-Unfulfilled-Williams-L-H-Good-Condition/362848222291?epid=87205980&hash=item547b707c53:i:362848222291

 

Quite a lot for 112 pages though.

 

 

 

Cheers for that stovepipe and to Colin

 

Tell me about it stovepipe, ain't they just... silly money for the price of some books, I collect Railway Catalogues but Price Lists mainly for Hornby Tri-ang Only, and the 1955 is only 16 page Catalogue to, and the most I have seen it sell on eBay, is for £211.55 over a 12 years period... those days are gone I think as several have sold of late of the 1955 for £50-£90, I remember when I bought mine and if you ain't ever seen the 1955 Tri-ang Catalogue in real or compared to the Catalogues of 1956 and later were much larger in size, the 1955 one, when it arrived... it was like.... you having a laugh... I paid £36 (as it went at 2am in the morning.... always a bonus  when an eBayer listing late...lol) it was the size of a Post Card literally... and only 16 pages and due to its age, some cab be so delicate to handle, I have all the catalogues, it the Price Lists I collect. So far I have 135 of 147 so i'm nearly there of those that Hornby have ever produced. The Tri-ang years there are more PL's and as high as 7 in any one year... some years have two dates in the same Month, people tend to only sell the Price List with the Catalogue, which is understandable, I can't tell you how many extra catalogues I have of each year and now, since around 2013 Hornby tend not to give them out now as standard, I had to phone Hornby this last week and they sent me 2019 and 2020 Price List out as they had a few 2019 spare, if anyone as Hornby Price List for 3014-2018, I need about 7 of the early years and of those 7, only 4 I have seen come up for sale and it was the Price it sold for why I didn't get it BUT if you do have PL's and you what to sell it, PM me ASAP for the Hornby Years 2014-2018.... (Hornby ONLY, not local Shop PL's either, Genuinee Hornby Only)  I do sell the tatty Catalogues off though, but I do find a Price List always helps sell a Catalogue, which the only reason I buy a Catalogue in the first place now is for the Price List as I still need a few to reach 135 of 147.... now ones are cottoning on, on eBay and now want £4.99-£9.99 for 50 year old piece of paper that's tatty, underlines and dog ear'd, well in that case sell me the catalogue as well for the money. Silly what some charge now a days, and mad what some are willing to pay to, that's what gets me. £211.55 for a tatty 1955/16pag Catalogue is just....NUTS...! Well that my Plee to anyone with Tri-ang Hornby Price Lists. (You can always PM me for Details of Dates you have and I'll say if I need they or not) Thanks

 

Anyway moving on.... lol

I do have these 2 for sure about the APT (Books) well the Green is more a mix of many and not Fully APT-P Information its more like the photo shows, Rocket and the APT-P together, but the APT Advanced Passenger Train Book is excellent. and I do have another but it's not where I thought it was, with this APT Book, I've had it out and not put it back after I used it... ah well hey haha

 

 

 

Regards

Jamie

[Colin_McLeod]

Coincidence of dates but that book went out of print on 16th October 1992 which is the day I left Northern Ireland Railways and also the day of the last train out of their Belfast York Road station.

 

[7APT7]

14 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Coincidence of dates but that book went out of print on 16th October 1992 which is the day I left Northern Ireland Railways and also the day of the last train out of their Belfast York Road station.

 

 

 

Blimey Colin,,,,

 

what are the chances of that hey... you could even plan it could you....Freaky or What.... haha

 

Regards

Jamie

[rembrow]

On 09/01/2020 at 15:41, rembrow said:

I've just sent a query to Hornby, via their on line e-mail form, asking for clarification of the vehicles included in the 5 car and 7 car train packs. I've also asked that if the 7 car pack has 2 N-DM vehicles, would they clarify if one or both are motorised. If I get a response I'll post it here. 

I've just had a reply from Hornby about the queries I raised on 9th January. The makeup of the 5 car and 7 car sets was confirmed as already advised in the late January Engine Shed, however the adviser had to ask Paul Isles to answer the question of how many motorised cars are in the 7 car set (R3784). The answer from Paul, is that the 7 car set, while having two NDM models, will only have one of them motorised, the other will be unmotorised.

He advised that Hornby had envisaged that those wanting a full 14 car rake, would start from the 5 car set (R3873), which is why they have made the additional power car R3948, as suitable for the other coaches in the 5 car set. If this is their thinking, why have they made available the additional coaches for the 7 car set, in order to get a 14 car set. As we know from Paul's earlier response to RM member 60800, there will be livery differences between the sets, with the 5 car set having the full yellow front on the driving cars and the 7 car set having the black window surrounds.

As I want the later black window surrounds, more typical of the use in timetabled passenger service, I think I will have to invest in the separate power car, R3948, and hope the body swaps with the unmotorized version in the 7 car set, or change the coach number.

Edited February 12, 2020 by rembrow
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