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On 10/06/2020 at 12:40, davidw said:

 

Apologies - I forgot the chimney mods. But the tenders and cabs between 60501 and 60506 are different. On 60501 and 60502 the cabs have a turn in at the rear, and the tenders have a beading at the top. 60505/6 the cab have no turn-in and a streamlined highsided tender. 

The A2/2 is a minefield of options

At the risk of planting another mine in this already overpopulated field, the tenders of 60501 and 60502 were not identical either. Both engines kept their original tenders from building as P2s to scrapping as A2/2s. 60501 had spoked wheels while 60502 had discs (this also affected those attempting a conversion of the Hornby P2 from 2001 to 2002). The CAD earlier in this thread appears to show that Hornby have gone for discs so may be correct for 60502.

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On ‎13‎/‎06‎/‎2020 at 10:40, Tramshed said:

The CAD earlier in this thread appears to show that Hornby have gone for discs so may be correct for 60502.

The CAD might well show discs but that does not in any way shape or form mean that Hornby are going to follow suit when the models are actually produced.

Bernard. Firmly in the wait and see camp.

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1 hour ago, AlexHolt said:

The samples look pretty good so far. 

cec226a0d806b9f59e777ce2e3e5e59f.jpg

 

A2/3 No. 500 Edward Thompson

24c5b810b0c4d9fb59aa849b2b12b48b.jpg

 

A2/2 60501 'Cock O' The North'

e82e7350b29fce5e7c17bc76de1f0119.jpg

Images from this month's Hornby engine shed blog. 

 

Samples for all of the models being produced can be found on this month's Engine Shed Blog.

Slightly droopy cab on CofTN. Looks like some exceptional models though.

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2 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

The samples look pretty good so far. 

cec226a0d806b9f59e777ce2e3e5e59f.jpg

 

A2/3 No. 500 Edward Thompson

24c5b810b0c4d9fb59aa849b2b12b48b.jpg

 

A2/2 60501 'Cock O' The North'

e82e7350b29fce5e7c17bc76de1f0119.jpg

Images from this month's Hornby engine shed blog. 

 

Samples for all of the models being produced can be found on this month's Engine Shed Blog.

Bought some Jackson-Evans plates for 60501 for 50p from a bargain bin a couple of years ago  - never dreamed there would be a RtR version to use them on! 

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On 11/06/2020 at 11:18, 60027Merlin said:

 

The 6 of them  were transferred south in 1949. 60501 - 60503 went to York and 60504 - 60506 to New England. The York based three were very rare visitors to Edinburgh whilst it was highly unlikely that the other three got past Newcastle.

Thanks Merlin. On balance I might change my order from Thane (R3831) to Cock O' The North (R3830) and update the tender to late crest (my main period is 1969-64). I'm also toying with the idea of renaming/renumbering to 60502 as this was the longest-lived of the sub-class. As others on this thread have commented, it's a bit of minefield!

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1965636559_60506December(2).JPG.cacec2c371123b75b0c58e114e33510a.JPGAnother rebuild from Graeme King parts, just to show the positive impression I get from an A2/2.

 

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13 hours ago, Blythtyneboi said:

Thanks Merlin. On balance I might change my order from Thane (R3831) to Cock O' The North (R3830) and update the tender to late crest (my main period is 1969-64). I'm also toying with the idea of renaming/renumbering to 60502 as this was the longest-lived of the sub-class. As others on this thread have commented, it's a bit of minefield!

Cofth would need it's smokebox number plate and lamp iron lowered. Not impossible but just more "little jobs".....

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3 hours ago, davidw said:

CoftN would need it's smokebox number plate and lamp iron lowered. Not impossible but just more "little jobs".....

And the change to a cast chimney if your period is post 1959. Then there are the spoked tender wheels to change to discs (if spokes are supplied, they were in P2 form). Given that there are effectively 3 versions of this class, 2 x curved cab, 2 x straight cab with truncated 'V' and 2 x 'full V' cab with retained early boiler (not modelled), it occurs to me that for those who are prepared to wait, Hornby might eventually offer a 'late crested' 60502 to make full use of the tooling suite.

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37 minutes ago, Tramshed said:

And the change to a cast chimney if your period is post 1959. Then there are the spoked tender wheels to change to discs (if spokes are supplied, they were in P2 form). Given that there are effectively 3 versions of this class, 2 x curved cab, 2 x straight cab with truncated 'V' and 2 x 'full V' cab with retained early boiler (not modelled), it occurs to me that for those who are prepared to wait, Hornby might eventually offer a 'late crested' 60502 to make full use of the tooling suite.

I keep forgetting things!

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Hi

 

I am modelling Haymarket MPD IN THE 1958/1959 period.

 

I have been looking at all the variations on the A2/2 Competed with the two options Hornby are producing.

 

I finally place an order for 60501 I thought about the various amendments required, new chimney, AWS bang plate, lowering the smoke box number plate and lamp iron and late crest on tender
 

I can carry out all alterations but not happy trying to removing the lump of plastics on the smoke box door representing the smoke box front number plate.

 

So I have decided  to just leave it as it is. Era 4.

 

Does anyone know when AWS was fitted to the A2/2’s.

 

Regards

 

David

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12 hours ago, landscapes said:

Hi

 

I am modelling Haymarket MPD IN THE 1958/1959 period.

 

I have been looking at all the variations on the A2/2 Competed with the two options Hornby are producing.

 

I finally place an order for 60501 I thought about the various amendments required, new chimney, AWS bang plate, lowering the smoke box number plate and lamp iron and late crest on tender
 

I can carry out all alterations but not happy trying to removing the lump of plastics on the smoke box door representing the smoke box front number plate.

 

So I have decided  to just leave it as it is. Era 4.

 

Does anyone know when AWS was fitted to the A2/2’s.

 

Regards

 

David

The following is a direct quote from the RCTS green book vol 2A.

"In 1958-59 all except No. 60501 were fitted with the B.R. type Automatic Warning System".

60502 went in to Doncaster works for a general repair between 2/12/58 and 9/1/59 so this is probably the best candidate if you are looking for a precise date.

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On 21/06/2020 at 11:06, Tramshed said:

The following is a direct quote from the RCTS green book vol 2A.

"In 1958-59 all except No. 60501 were fitted with the B.R. type Automatic Warning System".

60502 went in to Doncaster works for a general repair between 2/12/58 and 9/1/59 so this is probably the best candidate if you are looking for a precise date.

 

 

Good morning Tramshed,

 

Don't believe everything you read in books, however 'definitive' they are.

 

All the A2/2s got AWS, including 60501.

 

John Edgson claims it never did on his drawing (based on a picture of 60501 on Doncaster scrap road, where it had been removed - for obvious reasons; it was expensive, and was probably used on another loco), but photographs exist of Cock o' The North fitted with it. 

 

704694786_A2260501Yorksummer58.jpg.5ff99ffe86c4a52ead2c17ba5d1b3efb.jpg

 

Taken on 50A in the summer of 1958.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Just a question.

 

Are the loco / tender running boards FINALLY going to line up, or even the loco's be slightly higher than the tender's, as that wonderful CotN photo above, and not slope to oblivion as normal and the tender's 2mm too high?

 

Al.

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

Good morning Tramshed,

 

Don't believe everything you read in books, however 'definitive' they are.

 

All the A2/2s got AWS, including 60501.

 

John Edgson claims it never did on his drawing (based on a picture of 60501 on Doncaster scrap road, where it had been removed - for obvious reasons; it was expensive, and was probably used on another loco), but photographs exist of Cock o' The North fitted with it. 

 

704694786_A2260501Yorksummer58.jpg.5ff99ffe86c4a52ead2c17ba5d1b3efb.jpg

 

Taken on 50A in the summer of 1958.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony

 

By pure coincidence I was looking at the Book of the A1’s & A2’s this morning with a photo of 60501 awaiting scrapping at Doncaster and although the AWS Bang plate had been removed you could clearly see the AWS support platform below the front buffer beam.

 

And it also the photo noted contrary to belief 60501 was fitted with AWS and as with the remainder of the class the AWS fitting date was unknown.

 

Regards

 

Tony

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1 hour ago, landscapes said:

Hi Tony

 

By pure coincidence I was looking at the Book of the A1’s & A2’s this morning with a photo of 60501 awaiting scrapping at Doncaster and although the AWS Bang plate had been removed you could clearly see the AWS support platform below the front buffer beam.

 

And it also the photo noted contrary to belief 60501 was fitted with AWS and as with the remainder of the class the AWS fitting date was unknown.

 

Regards

 

Tony

Good afternoon David (not Tony),

 

To be fair to most publications, it's almost impossible for 'mistakes' not to get through (how do I know this?). Unfortunately, they then can be taken as gospel - repeated then in other works. 

 

For instance, in the June 2020 issue of BRILL, Peter Groom tells us that 60091 is fitted with a Thompson 94A boiler (with a round dome on the second ring). Where might he get this information from to comment on his own picture? No doubt from the RCTS Part 2A of LNER Locomotives, where CAPTAIN CUTTLE is pictured complete with a round dome, credited with its being 94A. The problem is this is not a 94A boiler; it's a 94HP one. The 94A boilers were those fitted with a perforated steam collector (originally underneath a 'banjo' dome), one ring further back. 

 

Peter Coster gets into the same muddle in his first Book of The A3s; fortunately rectified in the later one. 

 

The same 'green' series tells us that K2s were used on some diverted services whilst the Retford dive-under was being completed. In 1965?

 

It's not my place to denigrate such a marvellous series (I count myself fortunate to be a good friend of Eric Fry), but it's my belief that anything written should always be subject to scrutiny when facts are taken as just that. 

 

I hope folk scrutinise everything I've ever had published.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon David (not Tony),

 

To be fair to most publications, it's almost impossible for 'mistakes' not to get through (how do I know this?). Unfortunately, they then can be taken as gospel - repeated then in other works. 

 

For instance, in the June 2020 issue of BRILL, Peter Groom tells us that 60091 is fitted with a Thompson 94A boiler (with a round dome on the second ring). Where might he get this information from to comment on his own picture? No doubt from the RCTS Part 2A of LNER Locomotives, where CAPTAIN CUTTLE is pictured complete with a round dome, credited with its being 94A. The problem is this is not a 94A boiler; it's a 94HP one. The 94A boilers were those fitted with a perforated steam collector (originally underneath a 'banjo' dome), one ring further back. 

 

Peter Coster gets into the same muddle in his first Book of The A3s; fortunately rectified in the later one. 

 

The same 'green' series tells us that K2s were used on some diverted services whilst the Retford dive-under was being completed. In 1965?

 

It's not my place to denigrate such a marvellous series (I count myself fortunate to be a good friend of Eric Fry), but it's my belief that anything written should always be subject to scrutiny when facts are taken as just that. 

 

I hope folk scrutinise everything I've ever had published.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony

 

Sorry about the name mixup  I was hoping that if I used your name I may acquire some of your modelling skills.

 

But getting back to the up and coming Hornby A2/2's, about a week ago I asked for your help enquiring if 60501 could have an identity change to 60502 and you kindly replied and mentioned that the Vacuum Ejector Pipe, (I assume that is the pipe running the length of the boiler on the left hand side) would have to be altered.

 

Looking at photos of 60501 and if I have the correct pipe it has a kink in it unlike the rest of the class just before it returns into the side of the boiler about midway above the nameplate.

 

But looking at the latest cad drawings on Hornby's own website the Vacuum Ejector Pipe on 60501 is dead straight, if 60501 and 60502 were very similar in appearance would it not have been more accurate for Hornby to have brought out the two A2/2 models as 60502 and 60505?

 

The latest photos from Hornby are further up at the top this page.

 

Unless they intend to rectify the pipe on the finished models, I would be very interested to hear your view on this.

 

Regards

 

David

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2 hours ago, landscapes said:

Hi Tony

 

Sorry about the name mixup  I was hoping that if I used your name I may acquire some of your modelling skills.

 

But getting back to the up and coming Hornby A2/2's, about a week ago I asked for your help enquiring if 60501 could have an identity change to 60502 and you kindly replied and mentioned that the Vacuum Ejector Pipe, (I assume that is the pipe running the length of the boiler on the left hand side) would have to be altered.

 

Looking at photos of 60501 and if I have the correct pipe it has a kink in it unlike the rest of the class just before it returns into the side of the boiler about midway above the nameplate.

 

But looking at the latest cad drawings on Hornby's own website the Vacuum Ejector Pipe on 60501 is dead straight, if 60501 and 60502 were very similar in appearance would it not have been more accurate for Hornby to have brought out the two A2/2 models as 60502 and 60505?

 

The latest photos from Hornby are further up at the top this page.

 

Unless they intend to rectify the pipe on the finished models, I would be very interested to hear your view on this.

 

Regards

 

David

Good evening David,

 

The various Thompson Pacifics have been discussed time and again on Wright Writes................

 

The pipe you mention is, indeed, the vacuum ejector pipe (always on the driver's side). 

 

I don't have a prototype picture of 60501 with its front numberplate above the crossrail and the early emblem on the tender, so cannot confirm whether the pipe had a kink in it during that period. However, it certainly did later.

 

1526838654_COCKOTHENORTHpanning.jpg.e4a020afa49843fc7f66b1cf1d7f750e.jpg

 

As I made sure on the model I made of it (built when I believed the RCTS and Isinglass!). This was the prototype for DJH's A2/2 kit, painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

One other detail of note concerns the main horizontal handrails, finishing short of the smokebox door.

 

60502 could have been chosen by Hornby.

 

A2_2_60502.jpg.f75482d5a8cd9047ac3c521b346bd77c.jpg

 

She was the last survivor of this unsuccessful class, and differed from her sister 60501 by having a straight ejector pipe and the handrails clipped to the smokebox front. 

 

She shared the same style of cabsides and tender (turned in rear/front respectively, with beading).

 

783191271_60505THANEOFFIFE.jpg.aca67e2dd2896168c5ddf8ef0ae796ec.jpg

 

1005394279_60505THANEOFFIFEonlayout.jpg.243d07cee043e803d628fc508f32ccdd.jpg

 

60505 was unique in the class in latterly carrying a Thompson Dia. 117 boiler - one ring further forward than the Peppercorn Dia 118 boiler; also fitted to 60501/2/5 (for a time) and 60506. 

 

Her handrails were also cut short of the smokebox front, and her numberplate/crossrail were transposed (as was 60506's for a time). She also had the backing plates behind the sandbox fillers (unique to the class, apart from 60504 having the same for a short period, but only on the offside!). 60505 also had a rimmed chimney apart from the last few months of its life. 

 

I built this example from a DJH kit for a friend, and Geof Haynes painted it.

 

60506.jpg.5da8de71347fe22d0738a1627df43bf6.jpg

 

Geoff also painted this model of 60506, which I built for a customer, also from a DJH kit. WOLF OF BADENOCH always had a rimmed chimney, though all the rest eventually got lipped ones. Its handrails were clipped to the smokebox front. 

 

Both these locos have straight-sided cabs, streamlined non-corridor tenders and no beading. Just like 60503 and 60504. 

 

1899337354_A22s02.jpg.b50fb94773876cbbadd08ca0872e7e79.jpg

 

Little Bytham's trio of A2/2s; from left to right 60506 (DJH), 60501 (DJH) and 60504 (Crownline), all built by me and painted by In Rathbone . The differences might be noted, especially 60504, which retained the original shortened P2 boiler and full V-fronted cab (like 60503). Hornby is not producing this variation. 

 

For those unhappy at building full kits................

 

60505.jpg.a4963fdf46b0b10726072fa28c7a830a.jpg

 

Graeme King produces a resin/etched conversion for a Bachmann A2. This A2/2 was created by Tim Easter for Gilbert Barnatt (Peterborough North). 

 

What else is there to comment on? Only that, at any one time no two in the whole class of six were ever exactly the same. 

 

Though I helped Hornby in the development of both classes of its Thompson Pacifics, I've yet to see the first 'proving' models. I pointed out all the differences during the research, but what Hornby eventually produces will be down to the design/marketing teams. 

 

I'm sure they'll be popular, despite the inevitable groans from the nit-pickers! 

Edited by Tony Wright
typo error
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29 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening David,

 

The various Thompson Pacifics have been discussed time and again on Wright Writes................

 

The pipe you mention is, indeed, the vacuum ejector pipe (always on the driver's side). 

 

I don't have a prototype picture of 60501 with its front numberplate above the crossrail and the early emblem on the tender, so cannot confirm whether the pipe had a kink in it during that period. However, it certainly did later.

 

1526838654_COCKOTHENORTHpanning.jpg.e4a020afa49843fc7f66b1cf1d7f750e.jpg

 

As I made sure on the model I made of it (built when I believed the RCTS and Isinglass!). This was the prototype for DJH's A2/2 kit, painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

One other detail of note concerns the main horizontal handrails, finishing short of the smokebox door.

 

60502 could have been chosen by Hornby.

 

A2_2_60502.jpg.f75482d5a8cd9047ac3c521b346bd77c.jpg

 

She was the last survivor of this unsuccessful class, and differed from her sister 60501 by having a straight ejector pipe and the handrails clipped to the smokebox front. 

 

She shared the same style of cabsides and tender (turned in rear/front respectively, with beading).

 

783191271_60505THANEOFFIFE.jpg.aca67e2dd2896168c5ddf8ef0ae796ec.jpg

 

1005394279_60505THANEOFFIFEonlayout.jpg.243d07cee043e803d628fc508f32ccdd.jpg

 

60505 was unique in the class in latterly carrying a Thompson Dia. 117 boiler - one ring further forward than the Peppercorn Dia 118 boiler; also fitted to 60501/2/5 (for a time) and 60506. 

 

Her handrails were also cut short of the smokebox front, and her numberplate/crossrail were transposed (as was 60506's for a time). She also had the backing plates behind the sandbox fillers (unique to the class, apart from 60504 having the same for a short period, but only on the offside!). 60505 also had a rimmed chimney apart from the last few months of its life. 

 

I built this example from a DJH kit for a friend, and Geof Haynes painted it.

 

60506.jpg.5da8de71347fe22d0738a1627df43bf6.jpg

 

Geoff also painted this model of 60506, which I built for a customer, also from a DJH kit. WOLF OF BADENOCH always had a rimmed chimney, though all the rest eventually got lipped ones. Its handrails were clipped to the smokebox front. 

 

Both these locos have straight-sided cabs, streamlined non-corridor tenders and no beading. Just like 60503 and 60504. 

 

1899337354_A22s02.jpg.b50fb94773876cbbadd08ca0872e7e79.jpg

 

Little Bytham's trio of A2/2s; from left to right 60506 (DJH), 60501 (DJH) and 60504 (Crownline), all built by me and painted by In Rathbone . The differences might be noted, especially 60504, which retained the original shortened P2 boiler and full V-fronted cab (like 60503). Hornby is not producing this variation. 

 

For those unhappy at building full kits................

 

60505.jpg.a4963fdf46b0b10726072fa28c7a830a.jpg

 

Graeme King produces a resin/etched conversion for a Bachmann A2. This A2/2 was created by Tim Easter for Gilbert Barnatt (Peterborough North). 

 

What else is there to comment on? Only that, at any one time no two in the whole class of six were ever exactly the same. 

 

Though I helped Hornby in the development of both classes of its Thompson Pacifics, I've yet to see the first 'proving' models. I pointed out all the differences during the research, but what Hornby eventually produces will be down to the design/marketing teams. 

 

I'm sure they'll be popular, despite the inevitable groans from the nit-pickers! 

Good evening Tony

 

Many thanks for taking the time to supply all that information and superb photos.

 

just one point on the Vacuum Ejector Pipe on 60501.

 

I do have various photos of 60501 taken from 1953 until withdrawal in 1960 and the pipe was the same throughout.

 

Regards

 

David

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1 hour ago, landscapes said:

Good evening Tony

 

Many thanks for taking the time to supply all that information and superb photos.

 

just one point on the Vacuum Ejector Pipe on 60501.

 

I do have various photos of 60501 taken from 1953 until withdrawal in 1960 and the pipe was the same throughout.

 

Regards

 

David

Thanks David,

 

'I do have various photos of 60501 taken from 1953 until withdrawal in 1960 and the pipe was the same throughout.'

 

So, if Hornby makes it straight, it'll be incorrect. 

 

By the way, 60504 also had a joggled ejector pipe for a time, but the joggle was the other way.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks David,

 

'I do have various photos of 60501 taken from 1953 until withdrawal in 1960 and the pipe was the same throughout.'

 

So, if Hornby makes it straight, it'll be incorrect. 

 

By the way, 60504 also had a joggled ejector pipe for a time, but the joggle was the other way.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I think the jiggle on 60501 may have been related to the fitting of the Pep boiler. It's worth noting how much the name plate move around in the above mentioned time period.

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24 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I think the jiggle on 60501 may have been related to the fitting of the Pep boiler. It's worth noting how much the name plate move around in the above mentioned time period.

Could be,

 

But the other three latterly-fitted with Dia. 118 boilers had straight ejector pipes. And, when 60501 still had its original shortened P2 boiler, its ejector pipe was joggled (the opposite way to 60504's). 

 

The positioning of A2/2 nameplates? I've never seen it mentioned in published works (other than by me), but the shorter 'plates were moved further forwards on the smokebox sides later in the locos' lives. Others seemed to be moved further up as well. 

 

As I say, no two of the six were ever exactly the same at any one time. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Could be,

 

But the other three latterly-fitted with Dia. 118 boilers had straight ejector pipes. And, when 60501 still had its original shortened P2 boiler, its ejector pipe was joggled (the opposite way to 60504's). 

 

The positioning of A2/2 nameplates? I've never seen it mentioned in published works (other than by me), but the shorter 'plates were moved further forwards on the smokebox sides later in the locos' lives. Others seemed to be moved further up as well. 

 

As I say, no two of the six were ever exactly the same at any one time. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

You are correct as usual, it would seem that 60501 got its jiggle while still fitted with the original style of boiler, the nameplate is noticeably lower than at withdrawal for example. I've noticed the downward jiggle in 60504, both are nostalgia era models so unfortunately a bit late for me.

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I have been following the discussions on the numerous difference between individual engines that have been pointed out by the well informed members together with Hornby's Engine Shed article and it still makes me smile to think that one of Thompson's main objectives when he took over as CME  was standardisation!

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