Jump to content

MGR Hooper!

Hornby Announce a Re-tooled Class 91 for 2020

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Hornby's 87 looked nice on the outside, but inside was not so good.

Their own decoder was too big to fit in the space they engineered for it, so this was a bit of a shot in the foot. They also left nowhere for a speaker. Speaker location was marked on the back of the PCB but there was insufficient space to actually fit anything.

By comparison, Bachmann's earlier 85 was a simple plug-in decoder fitment & a speaker mount point was included. It was just a matter of fitting one. This was a basic speaker but this was perfectly suitable for class 85 sounds.

Bachmann's 90 was a step forward. The speaker was already included so it was just a matter of fitting a decoder, for which there was sufficient space.

A working pan & fully DCC switchable lighting features were a step forward.

 

It would be disappointing if Hornby's 91 shared the same internal design as the 87.

I’m not convinced about pre fitted speakers. I don’t want to pay for something I’m not going to use

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, scumcat said:

I’m not convinced about pre fitted speakers. I don’t want to pay for something I’m not going to use

I can see the point in something like the 009 Baldwin where it’s in a different part of the body to where you put the decoder in but if you’re taking the body shell off anyway it seems a bit wasteful. 
In some of my Tillig HOm locos it sits beneath the circuit board which when screwed back down seals it over the sound box and makes the contacts. Neat bit of thinking, taking moments to install and no soldering of delicate contacts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I can see the point in something like the 009 Baldwin where it’s in a different part of the body to where you put the decoder in but if you’re taking the body shell off anyway it seems a bit wasteful. 
 

I agree, but I have no idea where Bachmann put the speaker in their class 90. It is certainly not on the same board as the decoder & it not visible with the roof off. The model would need to be dismantled further to find it.

The decoder fits under the roof panel, which is fairly easy to remove. Being a 21 pin type, it is just a flat board with a socket.

The speaker which the 85 is designed to accept is a cheap model, but the class does not produce a deep sound like you need from a diesel or steam loco: it has a variety of whirring & humming sounds. I doubt the 90 has an expensive speaker either, but it doesn't sound like it needs upgrading.

 

The point is if Bachmann can include fully switchable lighting, a working pantograph & a speaker, why can't Hornby?

 

Hornby fell behind in the 70s/80s: Lima arrived, producing Mk3s which were the correct length, 37s with 37 bogies (not the 31 then 47 which Hornby stuck with), HST power cars with light clusters which actually fit properly, locos heavy enough to pull trains.

Hornby worked hard to catch up in the late 90s & 2000s but do they now want to slip back & let history repeat itself?

Bachmann & Hattons have pushed have all pushed the standard up. Accurascale & Cavalex are looking to join them. Heljan look like they will join them with their class 86.

The hobby is a better place with a good Hornby striving to be a market leader, not the one from the 80s who were content to let others get ahead. If they do release the 91 with an 8 pin socket as previewed, they will be doing just that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

The point is if Bachmann can include fully switchable lighting, a working pantograph & a speaker, why can't Hornby?

 

Presumably they estimate that the extra time and money involved in providing those features would not generate sufficient extra profit, they are a business after all. Whether that's the correct decision or not is difficult to call but hey, it's their money (sort of) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I will be getting the Intercity model as it looks nice. Same in regards the VTEC and the "For the Fallen" models. The GNER and the LNER models don't interest me much but the VTEC interests me as it was the last livery I saw on the locomotive before I left England in 2017. Never got to see LNER in the flesh and I dislike GNER for reasons I will not share publicly. Therefore I will only buy three Class 91's :).

 

As for the Mk4's. I think Hornby will do them next year because to be honest. It would be silly for Hornby to not make the carriages and DVT and only do the locomotive. Cavelex on the other hand should still consider proceeding on with their models. Why? Because it gives the consumer a choice - that's why ;).

  • Like 2
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, BritishRail60062 said:

I think I will be getting the Intercity model as it looks nice. Same in regards the VTEC and the "For the Fallen" models. The GNER and the LNER models don't interest me much but the VTEC interests me as it was the last livery I saw on the locomotive before I left England in 2017. Never got to see LNER in the flesh and I dislike GNER for reasons I will not share publicly. Therefore I will only buy three Class 91's :).

 

As for the Mk4's. I think Hornby will do them next year because to be honest. It would be silly for Hornby to not make the carriages and DVT and only do the locomotive. Cavelex on the other hand should still consider proceeding on with their models. Why? Because it gives the consumer a choice - that's why ;).


I've gone for an IC one and the VTEC "For the Fallen".... let's hope some coaches make an appearance sometime soon.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The argument that it makes sense to do the coaches is really only from a modellers' wish list perspective given people are buying the loco regardless.

 

Hornby would weigh up each investment on it's own merits: the 91 has to sell as a stand alone and similarly the coaches would have to generate more than any other product they could do instead. Not everyone upgrading the loco would automatically replace all their stock as well.

 

Ironically, someone else investing in the range of coaches could be seen as complimentary to Hornby's offering as would probably boost sales of their loco with no financial outlay on their part.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And then there's people like me who are happy with the Intercity livery and the mk3 DVT to run with his mk3 ^_^ couldn't care less if they release mk4s or not :P

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:


I've gone for an IC one and the VTEC "For the Fallen".... let's hope some coaches make an appearance sometime soon.

2021 is likely the year they will show up Hayley. My true reason for some matching Mk4's is because I had some great memories of riding them up to 2017 when I was living in England :).

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

The argument that it makes sense to do the coaches is really only from a modellers' wish list perspective given people are buying the loco regardless.

 

Hornby would weigh up each investment on it's own merits: the 91 has to sell as a stand alone and similarly the coaches would have to generate more than any other product they could do instead. Not everyone upgrading the loco would automatically replace all their stock as well.

 

Ironically, someone else investing in the range of coaches could be seen as complimentary to Hornby's offering as would probably boost sales of their loco with no financial outlay on their part.

Up to a point I agree with you mate. But for me, my reason of getting the Mk4's would be to have a complete IC225 train in the VTEC livery because I used to enjoy these trains until I left England in 2017. The VTEC was one of the best liveries that the ECML fleet wore as it was bright and it stood out more. You are right though, with excepts like my needs. It will mostly be modellers with a large layout and clubs that need the full rakes of new Mk4 stock that will buy them up upon release :).

41 minutes ago, Markn said:

And then there's people like me who are happy with the Intercity livery and the mk3 DVT to run with his mk3 ^_^ couldn't care less if they release mk4s or not :P

Just like me mate. I will probably run my Hornby IC 91 with my Lima Mk3's and the dummy HST power car at the other end just for fun times as I mostly run my models trains as I see fit ;).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BritishRail60062 said:

... I mostly run my models trains as I see fit ;).

 

*Gasps!* You hear about such people but you never think you will actually come across one - can't we have him banned or something?  

(from a fellow Norn Ironer!)

  • Like 1
  • Funny 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 12:00, Pete the Elaner said:

There has been talk of those services being handled by class 90s with Mk4s.

Apparently these have better acceleration, the WCML crews already have knowledge of them & the higher top speed of the 91s cannot be used on the WCML.

I don't think it has been finalised yet.

 

Going O/T.

Reported elsewhere.

90026 has been reinstated to use and has gone to Toton last week - to be painted in GC colours. 90020/21/29/39 to follow.

Edited by newbryford
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Informative/Useful 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/01/2020 at 15:09, cwam said:

 

*Gasps!* You hear about such people but you never think you will actually come across one - can't we have him banned or something?  

(from a fellow Norn Ironer!)

I stepped out of line yesterday big time yesterday as when the Harp beer took a hold. I thought it was a good idea to use my Eurostar power cars with my rake of GWR Mk3's! :jester:. I will save the footage for April the 1st!

 

They always say "A little of what you fancy - does you good!" ;).

 

I'll get my coat. 

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whilst I prefer modelling the steam era for various reasons, my main interest day to day is in the recent and current rail scene. I don't usually get weak at the knees at models of more modern prototypes, but the promo shot of the 91 in IC Swallow looks the dogs danglies! It'll be very difficult for me not to free up some cash somehow and buy one. 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/01/2020 at 21:08, newbryford said:

 

Going O/T.

Reported elsewhere.

90026 has been reinstated to use and has gone to Toton last week - to be painted in GC colours. 90020/21/29/39 to follow.

 

 

Can't wait to see this. Do you know of the MK4 coaches and MK4 DVT will get the same GC treatment?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was curious to see how the new one compares to the old, so I took a picture of mine...

 

The body lines up with the old one perfectly, only the front buffers stick out further on the new one.

 

 

91newold.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, FullRake said:

.. so I took a picture of mine...

 

I'm sorry FullRake but I'm not clear as to what the upper model in the photo is?  Presumably the lower model is the current Hornby offering?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I'm sorry FullRake but I'm not clear as to what the upper model in the photo is?  Presumably the lower model is the current Hornby offering?

 

The lower photo is the one you're going to get :jester:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I'm sorry FullRake but I'm not clear as to what the upper model in the photo is?  Presumably the lower model is the current Hornby offering?

The upper image is Hornbys CG rendering for the new one. The bottom image is the current old model.

  • Agree 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hilux5972 said:

The upper image is Hornbys CG rendering for the new one.

 

Thanks for that Hilux5972, I haven't seen that before.  TBQH it doesn't look half bad, but if it's the same pantograph as the 87 I'm not that impressed that it can't be posed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

Thanks for that Hilux5972, I haven't seen that before.  TBQH it doesn't look half bad, but if it's the same pantograph as the 87 I'm not that impressed that it can't be posed.

Yes, the top picture is from Hornby's website.

 

Hopfully they update the coaches and DVT too. They should have updated the DVT at the same time and sell them as a pair like the HST and Hitachi 800 packs

 

 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its worth remembering that while the class 87 was introduced, the Mk3’s are still the same old same old...

 

Hornby arnt wet behind the ears, they will know that all they need to do its make the 91 and they can happily rake in a ton of revenue on the old mk4’s just by making a set of two in LNER colours... people are paying over £200 for the R3501 set..., 91’s are at peak popularity, they will scramble for LNER mk4’s old tooling or new.

 

it was a similar story on the HST power cars.. they squeezed every last livery out of the mk3’s before only now tooling the sliding door versions.

 

If they wanted to, as mentioned above, screw the fairings to the body, fit an NEM to it, and use the DVT bogie on the coaches.. job done, no better or worse than their current loco hauled mk3’s... and no ones complaining about them.

 

Edited by adb968008
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Its worth remembering that while the class 87 was introduced, the Mk3’s are still the same old same old...

 

Hornby arnt wet behind the ears, they will know that all they need to do its make the 91 and they can happily rake in a ton of revenue on the old mk4’s just by making a set of two in LNER colours... people are paying over £200 for the R3501 set..., 91’s are at peak popularity, they will scramble for LNER mk4’s old tooling or new.

 

it was a similar story on the HST power cars.. they squeezed every last livery out of the mk3’s before only now tooling the sliding door versions.

 

If they wanted to, as mentioned above, screw the fairings to the body, fit an NEM to it, and use the DVT bogie on the coaches.. job done, no better or worse than their current loco hauled mk3’s... and no ones complaining about them.

 

If Hornby re-run the ancient mk4 coach Tooling’s  for the new class91’s, then I think we can safely say, that we might have a new record/meltdown of negative comments here!

Personally, I’m holding off ordering the new 91’s till the coach situation becomes clearer...

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Its worth remembering that while the class 87 was introduced, the Mk3’s are still the same old same old...

 

Hornby arnt wet behind the ears, they will know that all they need to do its make the 91 and they can happily rake in a ton of revenue on the old mk4’s just by making a set of two in LNER colours... people are paying over £200 for the R3501 set..., 91’s are at peak popularity, they will scramble for LNER mk4’s old tooling or new.

 

it was a similar story on the HST power cars.. they squeezed every last livery out of the mk3’s before only now tooling the sliding door versions.

 

If they wanted to, as mentioned above, screw the fairings to the body, fit an NEM to it, and use the DVT bogie on the coaches.. job done, no better or worse than their current loco hauled mk3’s... and no ones complaining about them.

 


If I wanted a full rake, I'll happily accept a Mk4 DVT to the same standard as the Mk3 DVT and in terms of coaches I think Mk4 coaches at the same spec as their current newly tooled Mk1 coaches will be more than acceptable. 

 

Their older Class 91, Mk4 coaches and Mk4 DVT are some of the cheapest (quality, detail, overall finish) models I've ever seen. TBH they weren't even worth being in the Hornby Railroad range. I won't even compare the Mk4 coaches to the current Mk3 coaches, their current Mk3 coaches still look good and farily little needs to be done to actually bring them upto modern standards. The Mk4 coaches however need quite a bit of work done to modify them. The biggest drawback of them is the glazing, the swinging end skirts and accuracy.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Andy Mac said:


If Hornby re-run the ancient mk4 coach Tooling’s  for the new class91’s, then I think we can safely say, that we might have a new record/meltdown of negative comments here!
 

Personally, I’m holding off ordering the new 91’s till the coach situation becomes clearer...
 

 

This poses a problem, if Hornby are looking at the sales of Class 91s to decide whether tooling up brand new Mk4 coaches is viable or not, then if people wait, we'll never get anything.

 

It's better to pre-order and lose nothing than to to not order and probaly not get anything after that.

 

Well for the sake of Hornby, I really do hope that people like Simon Kohler, Lyndon Davies and their R&D man Paul Isles are keeping an eye on this Class 91 thread. We already had an unwanted meltdown on the other thread fueled by emotion and lack of thought. If there's no Mk4 coaches and a new Mk4 DVT planned soon, there's going to be a bigger meltdown (though this time there's going to be a valid reason for it).

Edited by MGR Hooper!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think that the comparison between the Hornby Mk3 coaches and Mk4 coaches isn't the best out there. Mk3 coaches have a much broader operational spectrum, you have HST trailers, you have loco hauled Mk3 coaches, Mk3 sleeper coaches and a whole range of special vehicles like the Network Rail vehicles and the Royal Train ones. Hornby's Mk3 coaches sat a level where small compromises was acceptable and they were always in demand. I think someone quoted Simon Kohler as saying the Mk3 coaches sold well and so they didn't see the need to update them. How many times have you seen Mk3 coaches from Hornby on the discount shelves vs. how many times have people been begging for re-runs because they sold out?

 

On the flipside, the Mk4 coaches are restricted to use with the Class 91 and a DVT, the only other time they ran elsewhere was probably on test or more recently I believe they're being used elsewhere. In terms of Mk4 coaches and their sales history, whenever they were sold separately to build up rakes (eg: East Coast sets) they lingered on for quite a while. It's only when Hornby did the VTEC sets a couple of years later that people had no source of Mk4 coaches to build up a set especially in the matching livery.

 

So I don't really think that saying Hornby never did proper Mk3 coaches for the HST power cars is a good basis for assuming Hornby will never do Mk4 coaches for the Class 91.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.