LNER reduced service for Sunday 9th Feb

[Clearwater]

Was supposed to be getting a train from Chester to Euston around 2pm.

 Was cancelled.  Thought we would try Liverpool Lime Street.  Arrived to find nothing running.  All London trains cancelled.  Now holed up in a Premier Inn with two cranky children who’ll miss a day of school.  We try again tomorrow!

 

David

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, Clearwater said:

Was supposed to be getting a train from Chester to Euston around 2pm.

 Was cancelled.  Thought we would try Liverpool Lime Street.  Arrived to find nothing running.  All London trains cancelled.  Now holed up in a Premier Inn with two cranky children who’ll miss a day of school.  We try again tomorrow!

 

David

Oh bad luck. 

P

[APOLLO]

Look at this screenshot off Ventusky https://www.ventusky.com/  for around 12.00 this midday. 100mph winds around Woodhead !!. I bet the MSW guys would have taken this in their stride and kept the old electric trains running - and to time too. I doubt the "built like a brick sh*thouse OLE would have given much trouble either !!!!!

 

 

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good -----

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51433720

 

Storm Ciara helps plane beat transatlantic flight record

 

Experts are hailing a British Airways flight as the fastest subsonic New York to London journey.

The Boeing 747-436 reached speeds of 825 mph (1,327 km/h) as it rode a jet stream accelerated by Storm Ciara.

The four hours and 56 minutes flight arrived at Heathrow Airport 80 minutes ahead of schedule on Sunday morning.

According to Flightradar24, an online flight tracking service, it beat a previous five hours 13 minutes record held by Norwegian.

 

Brit15

 

 

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I agree with Apollo - trying to get information apart from the 'pre-printed'  general comments from some operators (which have been on the 'net for a day or two) is very difficult'. I've just delivered the daughter to Reading because if nothing else I did at least find on RTT a Birmingham train formed off stock in the platform at Reading which was therefore likely to run.  She boarded about 20 minutes before the train was dye to leave and it was already full and standing - not surprising with a Paddington - Oxford supposedly 30 minutes earlier cancelled with no explanation.  Next problem she might have is getting out to the hospital as there is a tree down in the Headington Road in Oxford but that might be cleared by the time she gets there.  Yes the 'net can tell me a road in Oxford is n blocked by a fallen tree but not why the GWML east of Reading was effectively shut for several hours earlier today and how well they're recovering from that.

 

I fully realise from past experience that life in a Control Office today will be like hell on earth but it's the sort of day when you get extra folk in, including all the senior ops managers, to help with communications if nothing else.  But of course NR don't do that - they just leave it all to the normal Control staff - shows just how much their senior ops management care about trying to deliver what they're supposed to deliver.

 

Your daughter should get to the JR (if that's where she's going) Stationmaster, the X13 service runs via the Marston Road so will not be affected by the issue in Headington.

 

You are absolutely right about life in Controls today, and extra staff should be brought in, but nowadays who among the Control staff will give up one of their days off to struggle into work, get shafted for 8 or 12 hours without any form of meal break, and struggle to get home ? And bringing in outside staff, unless they have Control experience, can actually make life harder as the Controllers have to do their own job and guide and assist the incomers too !

 

I agree too that in this day and age current, up to date information is never technically easier to provide, yet too often falls by the wayside.

 

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, Clearwater said:

Was supposed to be getting a train from Chester to Euston around 2pm.

 Was cancelled.  Thought we would try Liverpool Lime Street.  Arrived to find nothing running.  All London trains cancelled.  Now holed up in a Premier Inn with two cranky children who’ll miss a day of school.  We try again tomorrow!

 

David

This storm is nationwide and even London schools may not be open tomorrow.Try something different and explore Liverpool.Plenty of interest there..Turn adversity to advantage....it’s a great city .You have an unexpected window of opportunity.

 

[Clearwater]

1 minute ago, Ian Hargrave said:

This storm is nationwide and even London schools may not be open tomorrow.Try something different and explore Liverpool.Plenty of interest there..Turn adversity to advantage....it’s a great city .You have an unexpected window of opportunity.

 

Thanks Ian. Yes,  we’re trying to do that.  Today, we thought, let’s try the maritime museum but that was closed due to the weather! We went bowling instead....

[Gwiwer]

A strong storm system with an uncertain track makes accurate prediction and precaution very difficult indeed.  No-one would wish to "Do a Fish" with memories of the Great Storm in '87 and Michael Fish's assertion that there was not a hurricane coming.  There was.  And many of us remember where we were that night and how we reacted.  

 

Today hasn't been quite as bad here, SW of London, as predicted though winds were up to Force 8 on the Beaufort scale and gusting above Force 10 for a couple of hours according to the nearby Heathrow Airport recordings.  We actually have no trains this weekend because of resignalling and station rebuilding work but over the SWR network the planned alterations seemed to run well enough.  The Weymouth service was split across Bournemouth to mitigate late running.  Some trains were showing as delayed above an hour but with stand-by trains and crew most return trips ran.  The suburban network generally ran adequately if not punctually but is almost unaffected by a 50mph speed limit.  

 

With trees still bare from Winter there is less chance of one acting like a giant sail and falling in high winds but a good many branches have come down.  It only takes one of those to make contact with the wrong part of a train and the job will stop.  As a very sensible precaution all the Royal Parks, Kew Gardens and other sites with significant trees have been closed to both public and non-critical staff.  

 

I have only limited visibility via the usual apps and websites for train running in other areas.  The GWR network seemed especially badly affected though in the morning everything through St. Erth was showing as On Time.  Anywhere powered by overhead lines would be subject to those swinging about in the breeze beyond safe limits and which would cause a suspension of all services.   I suspect this may have been what caused the Reading - Paddington problems earlier as wind speeds were gusting to 85mph.  

 

In the end what matters is safety.  It is frustrating to not be able to travel as planned nor do what was planned but if the cost is serious injury or worse then a day of significant disruption and with Do Not Travel alerts posted is a small price to pay. 

[royaloak]

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I had a look on Dawlish Cams this morning expecting really bad waves, it was choppy but not stormy and there was a 9 coach IEP passing like it was a summers day.

Wind was South Westerly so doesnt really get into Dawlish, its the South Easterlies which are the problem.

[Zomboid]

10 hours ago, royaloak said:

Wind was South Westerly so doesnt really get into Dawlish, its the South Easterlies which are the problem.

Saltcoats in Ayrshire (where they have an electrified sea wall railway) had a few exciting looking pictures. Doubt they were trying to run trains along it though.

[melmerby]

15 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

Earlier on we even had (un-forecast) thunder and lightning.

It was certainly in the BBC forecasts,

 

Several disruptions this morning, including debris in the OH wires and tree on line between Stafford and Wolves, track flooded in Carlisle etc.

Edited February 10, 2020 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not sure if it's record but this morning's 06.12 Frome to Paddington must have had one heck of a trip.  Virtually on time until it got away from Westbury then 96 late passing Heywood road - presumably due to 'stuff' on the line further east.  Various stops taken out saw it managing passing Kintbury 33 late then there are some weird times at Newbury but it was back to 108 late running into Reading where it sat for quite a while finally getting away 145 late and arriving Paddington 151 late.  presumably a bit of thought going on about terminating it at Reading but it was then decided to get it up to Paddington  - might have been due to the trespass incident further east?

 

Not a good run for anyone commuting from Frome, Westbury, or Pewsey to London.

[royaloak]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm not sure if it's record but this morning's 06.12 Frome to Paddington must have had one heck of a trip.  Virtually on time until it got away from Westbury then 96 late passing Heywood road - presumably due to 'stuff' on the line further east.  Various stops taken out saw it managing passing Kintbury 33 late then there are some weird times at Newbury but it was back to 108 late running into Reading where it sat for quite a while finally getting away 145 late and arriving Paddington 151 late.  presumably a bit of thought going on about terminating it at Reading but it was then decided to get it up to Paddington  - might have been due to the trespass incident further east?

 

Not a good run for anyone commuting from Frome, Westbury, or Pewsey to London.

Tree on the line at Theale so it might have been turned back at Kintbury to run via Melksham hence the 'funny' timings.

 

Par Signalbox has taken a direct lightning strike,I am sure you can work out what effect that has had on the service.

[Gwiwer]

3 hours ago, royaloak said:

Par Signalbox has taken a direct lightning strike

I hadn't realised Cornish electrification was happening so soon  

[The Stationmaster]

On 10/02/2020 at 20:45, Gwiwer said:

I hadn't realised Cornish electrification was happening so soon  

It's already happened Rick - they have electric block circuits (which do not like lightning) and electric signals with an electronic remote control link.  i don't know if the Burngullow area can drop into 'Through routes' working if the link goes down but it could be bad enough if it does and a lot worse if it doesn't

[D9020 Nimbus]

There's no doubt that train services are far more fragile now than in the past… something that hasn't sufficiently been taken into account when designing modernisation schemes.

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/02/2020 at 16:11, D9020 Nimbus said:

There's no doubt that train services are far more fragile now than in the past… something that hasn't sufficiently been taken into account when designing modernisation schemes.

I'm not at all sure about that.  GWML electrification structures are designed to be far more resilient than the previous generation and there is no doubt at all that they are a lot more resilient than headspan.  But 'high wind' speeds were put on back in BR days and that meant services were reduced in many cases because it made it impossible to maintain the booked balances for the likes of HSTs.

 

The bigger problem nowadays seems to be that if something does happen restoring normal, or even restricted, running takes longer than it did 25 years ago.  In some respects no doubt a consequence of there being fewer people to do it and certainly far fewer people qualified to go on track in whatever role compared with what once was the case.

 

One interesting difference is that generally problems with signalling equipment in high winds decreased with modernisation and the removal of pole routes although the reverse has happened with concentration of signalling control onto 'super' centres which control massive areas without remote interlockings which means longer distance communication and hence a greater exposure to any perturbation.

[Gwiwer]

On 12/02/2020 at 15:43, The Stationmaster said:

It's already happened Rick - they have electric block circuits (which do not like lightning) and electric signals with an electronic remote control link.  i don't know if the Burngullow area can drop into 'Through routes' working if the link goes down but it could be bad enough if it does and a lot worse if it doesn't

No sooner had Par regained its feet than another lightning strike knocked out most signals between Saltash and Liskeard.  My trip down on Thursday certainly had its moments beginning with the termination of 1C50 Night Riviera at Plymouth with brake issues on the locomotive.  The train had hit something earlier in the night - it felt to me like running through a small landslip with wheels running over rocks and solids striking the side of the train - which knocked out the air-con in at least the coach I was in and probably did more damage than might have been apparent immediately.  

 

Having transferred to a 4-car HST (which GWR calls a "Castle Class") we crept and waited, crept and waited all the way to Liskeard.  The signals were out.  I was able to see St. Germans starter showing red (which we duly passed under authorisation at caution) but others seemed to be dark.  

 

There are no trains at all west of Truro now.  Not because of the weather but due to the planned engineering blockade.  The weather is so wild that at least some of those works have been stopped until things ease a bit.  I must admit I wouldn't want to be the crane operator atop Hayle Viaduct in 80mph winds!

[royaloak]

On 12/02/2020 at 16:11, D9020 Nimbus said:

There's no doubt that train services are far more fragile now than in the past… something that hasn't sufficiently been taken into account when designing modernisation schemes.

Or trains and crews are worked harder than before so there isnt the resilience there used to be to absorb late running, we now have a LOT of diagrams where we have the bare minimum break in London so any delays on the way up will result in our back working starting late while we have our legally required break, whereas our break used to be longer so even if we were 10 or 15 minutes late our back working could still leave right time!

 

It works on paper because "we dont diagram for delays" is the standard answer.

 

Of course there are those who think its disgusting that they are being delayed while the driver has a 'cup of tea' forgetting (or not caring) we might have just driven for three and a half or four hours straight but that is just the ignorance of people these days!

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by royaloak

[Mark Saunders]

9 hours ago, royaloak said:

Or trains and crews are worked harder than before so there isnt the resilience there used to be to absorb late running, we now have a LOT of diagrams where we have the bare minimum break in London so any delays on the way up will result in our back working starting late while we have our legally required break, whereas our break used to be longer so even if we were 10 or 15 minutes late our back working could still leave right time!

 

It works on paper because "we dont diagram for delays" is the standard answer.

 

Of course there are those who think its disgusting that they are being delayed while the driver has a 'cup of tea' forgetting (or not caring) we might have just driven for three and a half or four hours straight but that is just the ignorance of people these days!

 

 

 

For a long time diagrams have been tightened up by the Bean Counters in the name of efficiency; so that we can now do more with less and eventually will be able to do everything with nothing!

[Zomboid]

15 hours ago, royaloak said:

Of course there are those who think its disgusting that they are being delayed while the driver has a 'cup of tea' forgetting (or not caring) we might have just driven for three and a half or four hours straight but that is just the ignorance of people these days

I don't know what they say at Paddington, but when a train is delayed due to "awaiting a member of train crew", that's all the information we're given on SWR/ SWT. It never occurred to me that it might be because they're due a break, I always figured they were delayed by some outside factor.

 

Not that it changes anything, if there's a break required before you can drive us back, then we've got to wait. And I certainly don't have a problem with that.

[Gwiwer]

"Awaiting train crew" is usually code for the person(s) concerned having been delayed earlier and needing to complete a break.  "Train crew delayed by disruption" is sometimes used when the incoming crew are not due a break (which can happen on suburban runs though not so often on main line turns) but have been delayed to the point where the next service cannot depart on time.  The availability and deployment of spares is not what it was either.  There might be a spare driver, or there might not.  Even if there is that driver must sign route and stock for the diagram to be covered before being assigned the job.  If you start juggling multiple rosters to get the right driver with the right train in times of service dislocation (and it does happen at times in some locations) then you potentially store up even more problems for Later Ron to sort out.  

 

Every location will have its own methods.  A driver who has spent up to three hours at the controls and at up to 125mph coming from Exeter to Paddington must have a break.  The crew who have completed two rounders from Waterloo via Hounslow likewise.  But there might be more flexibility at Waterloo to cover the next trip than there is at Paddington where a London driver might then end up at Exeter after midnight.  That's a long taxi ride home, a long wait for the up "Beds" or an unplanned night in a hotel room somewhere.  

 

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

For a long time diagrams have been tightened up by the Bean Counters in the name of efficiency; so that we can now do more with less and eventually will be able to do everything with nothing!

Nothing at all to do with bean counters - many of whom I came across in the railway industry wouldn't know and certainly couldn't understand a traincrew diagram if it was placed in front of them.  Any change has been down to  operations management,  train planners and diagrammers applying the necessary rules and criteria applying to diagramming - it is as simple as that.  There has always been a potential divergence between diagrams and everyday working when things are going wrong, nothing at all new in that as I can recall various examples of it on the Western in the early part of the 1970s and over the subsequent 20 years until the Region ceased to exist in 1992.  And that was little differeent from what happened on most other Regions.

 

Another factor which has changed is the way in which traincrew working has changed.   For example when the West of England route went over to HST operation, which meant shorter journey times, it still wasn't possible to get Plymouth Drivers to & from Paddington within an 8 hour day and in those days virtually all diagrams over 8 hours duration required special agreements.  But what the change to HSTs did mean was that it was possible to work Penzance Drivers through to Exeter so Penzance got a lot of additional Drivers and no doubt a few tightish turnrounds at Exeter to make them work, and the same for Exeter Drivers working to Penzance.  HSTs had a slightly different effect for Swansea Drivers as they had previously worked through to Paddington but on diagrams which were longer than 8 hours (about 8hrs 30 or thereabouts I think) but with HSTs they could do it in an 8 hour turn.

 

The situation has always been that good planners and diagrammers will work to obtain the optimum amnount of work out of any diagrammed turn they produce.  That is their job - but the do so within an agreed set of rules, simple as that.

 

As for breaks one of the biggest problems faced by diagrammers for many years was the PNB (Physical Needs Break) which had to take place between the 3rd and the 5th hour in a diagram and had been introduced as part of teh bargaining process to bring in more extensive single manning under the 1957 Manning Agreement.  There was a move to far greater flexibility in Eurostar Conditions of Service where Drivers did not get a PNB but got a Break From The Driving Cab Environment with a m ore flexible positioning of it within a diagram plus the ability not to have to schedule it at a location with a recognised official PNB point.  Some privayised operators have, I'm sure, made similar sort of agreements with their Drivers plus numerous other changes - which have normally been recognised by improved pay - in, again, simple terms, the improvement in potential efficiency has been shared in financial terms between management and the Drivers.

 

And yes - diagrams are drawn up on the basis that the timetable will work as planned because in reality there is no other realistic way of doing it.  and Britain is not alone in doing that as I found out when working with train planners and diagrammers in various other European countries and part of Australia.    And at least, unlike France, I don't think any British Drivers are subject to anything like the length of continuous driving which can be included in an SNCF Driver's diagram nor do they (fortunately) need to have a bucket in the cab of a Class 800 etc in the way they appear in the cab of certain TGVs working over long distances.

[caradoc]

Back in BR days it was common, on Glasgow suburban routes at least, to ask a Driver on a delayed service to forgo their PNB, for which they received extra pay, IIRC 1 hour: It was particularly helpful when, before DOO, a late train arrived for example at Airdrie and the Driver, Guard and set had three different next workings ! No longer allowed (quite rightly of course).

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

For example when the West of England route went over to HST operation, which meant shorter journey times, it still wasn't possible to get Plymouth Drivers to & from Paddington within an 8 hour day and in those days virtually all diagrams over 8 hours duration required special agreements.  But what the change to HSTs did mean was that it was possible to work Penzance Drivers through to Exeter so Penzance got a lot of additional Drivers and no doubt a few tightish turnrounds at Exeter to make them work, and the same for Exeter Drivers working to Penzance.

It also meant, at least so far as the public timetable was concerned, that all West of England services called at Exeter St. Davids.  Hitherto some summer Saturday and one or two other busy trains had been booked through to Plymouth although there might have been "CM" stops at St. Davids not advertised to the public.  CM is Working Timetable code for "Stops to change trainmen".  I think all trains now change drivers at Exeter but some change conductors, who would be on different agreements, at Plymouth.

 

There was, for a couple of years after full HST service commenced to Cornwall, a 4h 30m summer Saturday train from Paddington booked to call only at Plymouth, Liskeard, Bodmin, Snozzle, Truro, St. Erth and Penzance iirc.  It acted as relief to a more conventional stopping pattern running more or less in the block behind.  I used it twice.  On one occasion it ran non-stop to Plymouth and reached Penzance in 4h 29m which remains very much my fastest time for the route.  The other time it stopped to change drivers at Exeter and took 4h 35m to Penzance.  Still much faster than anything today by a clear half hour and showing what HSTs were actually capable of.  

 

With most turnbacks at Penzance being in the order of 50 minutes that might be tight if the PNB is 40 and agreed walking time makes up the other 10 minutes.  It seems generous but when you look at the agreements and needs it isn't quite so good.

 

There were similar considerations when I was driving rubber-tyred rolling-stock in Cornwall.  The statutory rest periods must be factored into the daily duties and weekly and monthly rosters.  We were normally allowed five minutes between arrival at a terminal and departure on the next trip.  That wasn't always on the same route and always required the destination blind to be reset.  The ticket machine also had to be encoded for the journey and there was usually someone hammering on the door expecting to get straight on.  If you needed to answer Nature's call you had to collect your cash and any personal stuff - never leave it in the vehicle - and walk for as long as was needed.  In some places that was a few metres; in others it was as much as a half-mile away.  But if you were late away you could be called in for tea without biscuits.  And we could be fined for running late on designated school runs.