Building an MTK 4-DD Double Decker

[74009]

Hi all,

 

This is going to be a thread about attempting an MTK 4-DD unit.  I'm pretty well versed in constructing MTK kits and have successfully built many of them in the past, but this one holds particular challenges.

 

The main problem is that the bodyshells are etched in a really thick, heavy brass,  The etchings themselves are good, but the way the body profiles have been formed is not.  None of them has the correct profile, but even more importantly none of them are the same and it's critical that the four bodies at least match or it's not going to look good at all.

 

I've had this kit for some 20 years and I've occasionally opened it up, had a think about it and packed it all away again, but I've decided that now is the time to just get on and do it - if it fails that's probably no worse than it laying unbuilt in a box.

 

Stuart

 

[74009]

 

So, this is the main parts of the kit - bodyshells, ends and separate etchings for the guard's van doors, as these were inset.

[74009]

The correct profile for the bodysides is basically flat from the bottom up to about 1/2 way through the upper deck windows, then curved from there.

 

As you can see, some of these are flat all the way to the tops of the windows with the bend starting above them, and others have a more gentle bend pretty much from the bottom of the windows.

 

[74009]

There's also some distortion and flaring out of the windows' top edges.

 

I think getting this profile right, with the curved glass upstairs, is critical to the final appearance of the model.  

 

As mentioned, the brass is really hard.  I did consider annealing it and I still might try.  However, after a lot of bending, rolling and wilful destruction of thumbs, I managed to flatten the bodies out to some degree, then re-instate the curve in the right place.

 

It's not perfect yet by any means, but it's coming along.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by 74009
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[74009]

You can see in that last picture how thick the brass is.

 

It's one thing getting one side to the right profile, but the real problem is getting the other 7 sides to match it.  Also, as the distance across the etch is fixed, I won't have much control over the width and height of the finished shell as there will be a fixed relationship between them.

 

In my view the cab fronts look higher than they need to be too.

 

[74009]

 

Having thought about this, I think what I'm going to do is cut all the shells longitudinally where the rainstrips would be to end up with separate sides, and roof sections which I'll probably discard.  That way I've only got to make the sides flat with a curve at the top, and I can proceed more in the fashion of an MJT construction using 4 replacement roofs which will definitely have a matching profile.

 

That's it for today - more to follow...

 

Stuart

Edited May 9, 2020 by 74009
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[30368]

Interesting prototype to model. Hope the kits come with interior moldings?

 

I remeber these units at Waterloo back in the 1960s and had a trip or two whilst on route to check a unit fitted with an engineering experiment.

I remember that the main weakness was the additional station dwell times to unload/load. Clever packaging but limited benefit due to the UK loading gauge.

 

Good luck.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

[74009]

 

Thanks Richard.

 

Nothing at all provided for the interiors, so that's a problem all of its own. 

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by 74009

[Darius43]

31 minutes ago, 74009 said:

 

Having thought about this, I think what I'm going to do is cut all the shells longitudinally where the rainstrips would be, to end up with separate sides and roof sections which I'll probably discard.  That way I've only got to make the sides flat with a curve at the top, and I can proceed more in the fashion of an MJT construction using 4 roofs which will definitely have a matching profile.

 

That's it for today - more to follow...

 

Stuart

 

Hi Stuart,

 

Great to see another MTK kit construction under way - especially a 4-DD.

 

Have you thought about making internal “shape master” in hardwood and gently beating the coach bodies to shape around it.

 

I have this kit in the stash but have not been able to get past the taking out of the box and putting back stage.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

[John Tomlinson]

This is fascinating and I'll be very intrigued to watch your progress.

 

Another comment elsewhere was that they'd never seen a model of one of these. I think I may have seen a distinctly iffy resin moulding once, but this has the capacity to be massively better. I'm sure your approach to the roofs is correct, though not undaunting. Amazing that such thick brass was used, unless they had a job lot left over from something else!

 

Many thanks for posting.

 

John.

['CHARD]

4DD - Barbie's bust size?

[andyman7]

Aaah, MTK, best described as an 'aid to scratchbuilding' as in this case. Will enjoy following progress!

[hayfield]

Looking forward to this thread, must be the ultimate SR EMU of all time

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

Aaah, MTK, best described as an 'aid to scratchbuilding' as in this case. Will enjoy following progress!

 

I thought they were an aid to aircraft modelling, one of the best adverts for it?

Personally I would have used them as cheese graters

You're doing a great job and I will be following your battle, I was interested in building a Marc Models kit, but I think that's a non starter now.

 

Mike.

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I thought they were an aid to aircraft modelling, one of the best adverts for it?

Personally I would have used them as cheese graters

You're doing a great job and I will be following your battle, I was interested in building a Marc Models kit, but I think that's a non starter now.

 

Mike.

 

Well - thanks to a fellow RMweb member - I am now the possessor of an MTK Park Royal (Class 103) kit. Whilst waiting for the kit to arrive, I ordered a few Hornby DMU spares to replace anticipated substandard MTK components, such as chassis fittings and bogies.

 

I needn't have bothered - all the kit components are fine. The body is cleanly punched and well-formed, and the castings are sharp and free from distortion. With the addition of a High Level Lo-Rider motor bogie and some DC Kits interior fittings, I see no reason why the kit can't be assembled satisfactorily as originally intended.

 

Much slander is promulgated against MTK kits - mostly by modellers who have never handled one. There were some loco kits that were challenging, but the majority of the DMUs and EMUs were very well produced for their time.

 

John Isherwood.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Oh believe me John, I have handled some, I'll not go into to detail though!

Could your kit have had some involvement from Alistair in the post MTK days?, I don't know the lineage of the kits.

 

Mike.

[74009]

Hi Darius,

 

Yes I did think about making a hardwood former to try and bash the bodies around, but I wasn't confident that I could make the former accurately enough.  I was also worried that the brass might just keep springing back rather than taking the form of the wood - although presumably annealing it would have cured that.

 

I even looked into having a two part metal press made to compress the bodies inside - which would hopefully have removed any distortion. That might have worked, but I could probably have bought a full size Deltic for the same money.

 

Overall I'm more happy with the idea of cutting the middle section out, because the sides on their own will be much easier to handle and I'll also have access to the top edge where the bend is, which should help in keeping it straight along its length.  Another benefit that's just occurred to me is that I'll be able to check that the 8 sides are all the same by stacking them.

 

I imagine because they're so thick that once I've fitted them to a new roof I'll have to add an inlay then smooth it all out.

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

Edited August 5, 2020 by 74009

[74009]

2 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

This is fascinating and I'll be very intrigued to watch your progress.

 

Another comment elsewhere was that they'd never seen a model of one of these. I think I may have seen a distinctly iffy resin moulding once, but this has the capacity to be massively better. I'm sure your approach to the roofs is correct, though not undaunting. Amazing that such thick brass was used, unless they had a job lot left over from something else!

 

Many thanks for posting.

 

John.

 

Hi John,

 

Yes there was a resin kit made by a company in Canterbury - the Engine Works or Engine Shed or something I think.  Resin moulding of big parts like that is very difficult - they have a great tendency to sag.  

 

Ayjay models has recently introduced a resin kit too.  I've only seen pictures and it looks ok, but to me the curve in the body profile seems to start too high up so the upper deck windows are more or less flat rather than curved in the middle.  Looking forward to seeing one in the flesh though.

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

[74009]

43 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I thought they were an aid to aircraft modelling, one of the best adverts for it?

Personally I would have used them as cheese graters

You're doing a great job and I will be following your battle, I was interested in building a Marc Models kit, but I think that's a non starter now.

 

Mike.

 

 

Hi Mike

 

Yes I'm not sure what happened with the MARC models one.   Some years ago MARC models actually borrowed the very kit I'm building now - I think they were interested in looking at the area around the guards van doors.  They must have made some progress because when it came back one of the coaches had a couple of brass coach ends soldered in, which weren't part of the MTK kit. I do think their kit was advertised for sale for a while but I never saw one.

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

[74009]

Hi Mike and John,

 

I've got an original MTK 'Park Royal' class 103 kit too.  The castings and bodies are very good indeed - cab ends will require almost no cleaning up at all.  Mine dates from many years ago - I bought it from Colin Massingham in person at the Chatham model railway exhibition when it used to be held in the dockyard.

 

As I mentioned on the other MTK thread, Colin's kits were variable - but the good ones were good.

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

 

 

[cctransuk]

48 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Oh believe me John, I have handled some, I'll not go into to detail though!

Could your kit have had some involvement from Alistair in the post MTK days?, I don't know the lineage of the kits.

 

Mike.

 

Mike,

 

No, the kit that I have is very definitely an original - the packing and instruction sheets have the Massingham stamp all over them!

 

I built an MTK Gloucester two-car DMU back in the 1980s - which was also an original - it too was a very good quality item and assembled into a model that was better than the Tri-ang / Hornby DMUs of the period.

 

John Isherwood.

[hayfield]

43 minutes ago, 74009 said:

 

 

Hi Mike

 

Yes I'm not sure what happened with the MARC models one.   Some years ago MARC models actually borrowed the very kit I'm building now - I think they were interested in looking at the area around the guards van doors.  They must have made some progress because when it came back one of the coaches had a couple of brass coach ends soldered in, which weren't part of the MTK kit. I do think their kit was advertised for sale for a while but I never saw one.

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

 

Stuart

 

I am certain at one of the shows I saw these on sale, may have been a few years ago though

[Darius43]

Hi Stuart,

 

Just retrieved the MTK 4-DD from the stash.  It has the same thick brass coach bodies with the variable curved roofs.  Now all back in the box (again).

 

I will be watching your build with interest.

 

I also have the Engine Works resin 4-DD kit somewhere.  I have built a few resin coaches - they start out ok after completion but over time go banana-shaped, which is somewhat discouraging.

 

I think it has an interior, however, so I will see if I can find it and take some photos, which may be of use.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Stuart

 

I am certain at one of the shows I saw these on sale, may have been a few years ago though

 

Mike had a built up version on display on his stand at shows, although from what he said it was a combination of test etches, scratchbuilding and cross kitting of components, but I don't believe it ever got to being on general sale.

 

Mike.

[roythebus]

You might care to look at the facebook 4DD group, there's a lot of close-up detail pictures on there. One of the motor coaches resides about 3 miles from where I live at Sellindge. The owning group has recently taken out a long lease on the storage yard and has taken possession of the coach. the original owner passed away a couple of years ago and there was the usual legal wrangling to transfer ownership to the enthusiast group.