Proposed new Welsh stations

[Northmoor]

The WAG hoping for funding from the UK government for some new stations:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52919091

 

Carno (Powys)

St Clears (Carmarthenshire)

Deeside Parkway

Ely Mill (Cardiff)

 

Being from that part of the world, I've never understood the enthusiasm for reopening St. Clears; it will just make the train service even less competitive.  The station was in the middle of the 75mph Whitland-Carmarthen stretch (15 miles-ish), which means it will put a significant time penalty for passengers further West.  Since the end of steam the A48/A40 West of Swansea has been substantially improved with dual carriageway as far as St.Clears, it is already considerably quicker to drive from West Wales to Swansea and Cardiff.

What was always needed was a new station at Johnstown just West of Carmarthen river bridge alongside the old creamery site.  This would replace Carmarthen station and most of that station site could be sold off.  Johnstown/Carmarthen Parkway is just off the A40, serves a residential area and a large school, while a frequent bus could link with the centre of Carmarthen itself (which isn't the easiest walk from the existing station), plus there is lots of cheap land around the site for parking and the expense of a footbridge could be mitigated by building ramps to the road bridge.  It would instantly knock 5 minutes off the travel time from West Wales, to achieve that with line speed increases would cost orders of magnitude more.

Meanwhile St. Clears serves little more than a large village, most traffic will have to drive to the station and which could quite easily drive to Carmarthen to head further East anyway (and as there are some services which start there, they'd have more choice).  So is the only reason to re-open St.Clears, that is that it's where the station used to be?

[Zomboid]

"Longer term discussions" for Greenfield (ie Holywell Junction). With the industry and housing in the area I'm surprised that's not on the agenda sooner.

[corneliuslundie]

Carno has been campaigning for re-opening of the station ages, but Powys's response always seems to have been to do another feasibility study to put off any decision. With the current problems at Laura Ashley* it is possible that the original site might become available (if suitable) rather than the new site currently proposed. But again, it would increase journey times. Already we have the new Bow Street. There is also (and should be) a campaign to re-open Abermule. In 1960 it was a couple of farms, two pubs, a chapel and a mill, with I think a shop. Now the population is something like 1000 I think (anyone know?) with more houses approved, though no local employment. But adding all three stations would trash the current timetable.

* In administration, and the local paper headline the other day was about new problems.

Jonathan

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Carno has been campaigning for re-opening of the station ages, but Powys's response always seems to have been to do another feasibility study to put off any decision. With the current problems at Laura Ashley* it is possible that the original site might become available (if suitable) rather than the new site currently proposed. But again, it would increase journey times. Already we have the new Bow Street. There is also (and should be) a campaign to re-open Abermule. In 1960 it was a couple of farms, two pubs, a chapel and a mill, with I think a shop. Now the population is something like 1000 I think (anyone know?) with more houses approved, though no local employment. But adding all three stations would trash the current timetable.

* In administration, and the local paper headline the other day was about new problems.

Jonathan

Abermule had a population of about 900 in the 2011 census, according to Wikipedia.  Perhaps Powys's response on Carno is just being diplomatic and it's easier to pay for another study rather than openly tell your elctorate that it would be a complete waste of money.  A thousand people might support an existing station, but never enough to justify building a new one. 

I knew Bow Street was going ahead, but surely a station around Llanbadarn - which might be impossible if it's on a gradient - would be more sensible as there is significant employment within walking distance and hence a destination rather than an origin.

It often feels like Welsh politicians still obsess about returning to the railways of the 1950s, rather than building a rail network for the traffic demands of the 2020s.  Reopening Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is something that would only ever be proposed if you knew it would be achieved with a colossal amount of (someone else's) money.

[Tricky-CRS]

Carno Station is needed if it is a parkway as Caersws has no parking and covers a large area. The Laura Ashly factory closed quite a few years ago and is very much becoming derelict. They are struggling to get any tackers due to access, which station would help with. I know someone is using parts of the factory for storage but has never brought the jobs promised and a timber transport firm use part of the yard. The lovely old station and goods shed are I believe falling into very poor condition. The station at Carno would serve a large rural community if it has good parking and reduce driving.

[Mountain Goat]

15 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The WAG hoping for funding from the UK government for some new stations:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52919091

 

Carno (Powys)

St Clears (Carmarthenshire)

Deeside Parkway

Ely Mill (Cardiff)

 

Being from that part of the world, I've never understood the enthusiasm for reopening St. Clears; it will just make the train service even less competitive.  The station was in the middle of the 75mph Whitland-Carmarthen stretch (15 miles-ish), which means it will put a significant time penalty for passengers further West.  Since the end of steam the A48/A40 West of Swansea has been substantially improved with dual carriageway as far as St.Clears, it is already considerably quicker to drive from West Wales to Swansea and Cardiff.

What was always needed was a new station at Johnstown just West of Carmarthen river bridge alongside the old creamery site.  This would replace Carmarthen station and most of that station site could be sold off.  Johnstown/Carmarthen Parkway is just off the A40, serves a residential area and a large school, while a frequent bus could link with the centre of Carmarthen itself (which isn't the easiest walk from the existing station), plus there is lots of cheap land around the site for parking and the expense of a footbridge could be mitigated by building ramps to the road bridge.  It would instantly knock 5 minutes off the travel time from West Wales, to achieve that with line speed increases would cost orders of magnitude more.

Meanwhile St. Clears serves little more than a large village, most traffic will have to drive to the station and which could quite easily drive to Carmarthen to head further East anyway (and as there are some services which start there, they'd have more choice).  So is the only reason to re-open St.Clears, that is that it's where the station used to be?

 

Years ago when I was a guard, I was asked which possible stations coule be re-opened and what could be done to improve services. At the time (I am a bit out of touch with things today) there were four services each way up the Heart of Wales line so some people could not use the line to commute with, as the times were not practical, so I made the suggestion there could be a fifth service even if it is only part of the way up and back from the Llanelli end.

I also suggested that Fishguard Harbours twice daily services (One at mid day and one 12 hours later at just past midnight were torally impractical for any of the locals to make use of it so I suggested an extra two services a day so locals could commute.

I also suggested re-opening St Clairs, as it has a fair population for that area and the stretch between Carmarthen and Whitland is a long one. Out of the two small towns, to me St Clairs is more of a bustling place then Whitland is. Whitlands popularity was based on it being a junction station, and so the small town grew around it. St Clairs is more of a major place where roads meet and it seems a missed oppertunity as most people living there have to rely on owning a car... The walk from St Clairs to Carmarthen or Whitland if one is carless is a major one. Out of all the routes I used to operate on, oe of the largest running gaps between stations was the Carmarthen to Whitland stretch which just so happened to have one of the largest unserved towns on its route. 

Be aware, that not all trains need to stop there. If just a few a day stop there on request, then it will be a major improvement to the lives of those who live there or live near there as it will also serve many smaller villages in that area as many roads meet at St Clairs. 

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

It often feels like Welsh politicians still obsess about returning to the railways of the 1950s, rather than building a rail network for the traffic demands of the 2020s

That's not just Wales. There's too much effort expended on "what can we reopen" rather than "what will we need in the future".

 

In a lot of cases there's significant overlap, but a favourite of mine is "should we reopen Woodhead?", when the question should be "do we need a new line between Manchester and Sheffield, and if we do what route should it take?". We probably shouldn't be looking for 19th century solutions to 21st century problems.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Zomboid

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, Mountain Goat said:

 

Years ago when I was a guard, I was asked which possible stations coule be re-opened and what could be done to improve services. At the time (I am a bit out of touch with things today) there were four services each way up the Heart of Wales line so some people could not use the line to commute with, as the times were not practical, so I made the suggestion there could be a fifth service even if it is only part of the way up and back from the Llanelli end.

I also suggested that Fishguard Harbours twice daily services (One at mid day and one 12 hours later at just past midnight were torally impractical for any of the locals to make use of it so I suggested an extra two services a day so locals could commute.

I also suggested re-opening St Clairs, as it has a fair population for that area and the stretch between Carmarthen and Whitland is a long one. Out of the two small towns, to me St Clairs is more of a bustling place then Whitland is. Whitlands popularity was based on it being a junction station, and so the small town grew around it. St Clairs is more of a major place where roads meet and it seems a missed oppertunity as most people living there have to rely on owning a car... The walk from St Clairs to Carmarthen or Whitland if one is carless is a major one. Out of all the routes I used to operate on, oe of the largest running gaps between stations was the Carmarthen to Whitland stretch which just so happened to have one of the largest unserved towns on its route. 

Be aware, that not all trains need to stop there. If just a few a day stop there on request, then it will be a major improvement to the lives of those who live there or live near there as it will also serve many smaller villages in that area as many roads meet at St Clairs. 

Note the spelling of St. CLEARS.....

One of the things I realised once moved away from Pembrokeshire, is just how high car ownership is in such a rural area.  Unless you live walking distance from the new station - which isn't far for most people and for elderly people who are most likely to be car-less, even less so - you will be driving to the station and if you already have a car, will drive to Carmarthen.  This is the problem with opening stations like St.Clears; does it actually create any NEW traffic or simply extract from existing stations?  I'm certain >90% of the new station's customers wouldn't be new, so you've spent several million quid for very little net benefit.

It needs to be remembered that the Beeching report outlined a principle that the railways still adhere to today; adding stops and extended journey times on through routes drives traffic away.  A substantial part of the report was listing quiet intermediate stations where the traffic didn't justify delaying the rest of the passengers.  This is my point; travel West of Swansea is slow and making it slower won't reverse the declining passenger numbers (look at the ORR figures, Wales has a real problem not seen in the rest of the UK). 

[MartinWales]

Also on the agenda was the long term aim of reopening the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen and Bangor to Afonwen lines,possibly the ultimate aim of being able to travel north to south without going via England

[Northmoor]

6 minutes ago, MartinWales said:

 the ultimate aim of being able to travel north to south without going via England

I think this is the sole reason why there is any enthusiasm for those two routes to be re-opened.  How convenient if as well as creating a means of avoiding the English people that certain WAG politicians have an almost racist dislike of, they can get the English to pay for it as well.

[MartinWales]

31 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I think this is the sole reason why there is any enthusiasm for those two routes to be re-opened.  How convenient if as well as creating a means of avoiding the English people that certain WAG politicians have an almost racist dislike of, they can get the English to pay for it as well.

That's a rather cynical unhelpful and distainful approach to take, but not altogether uncommon from the other side of Offa's Dyke.

 

Also the Senedd (Senate)or Welsh Government has priorotised an improved transport infrastructure, not only by offering new ideas but those with long term social economic and environmental benefits, which was outlined in 2017-check the WAG One Wales-The Welsh Transport Strategy.

 

So forgive me for asking what is the per capita spending on transport in the South East? Comparing it to the North East?

 

Don't forget what's happened with the Borders Railway, which has been an outstanding success, not that I'm saying that this would be, but   

Edited June 5, 2020 by MartinWales
info

[The Johnster]

Good point; the general perception of Beeching was that he closed branch lines, which of course he did but many of them had never made a penny since they were built and were doomed anyway.  What is overlooked is that he closed far more stations on through main lines, and that those closures caused far more impact in those communities as they deprived the place of not only a passenger service but it's goods and parcels connections as well.  In some places they are a long way off main. roads; the GW Badminton cutoff for example runs through some very isolated areas. 

 

St Clear's, Carno, and Ely are in this category.  Ely seems utterly pointless with Fairwater on the City Line 5 minutes walk away.  A Parkway at Marshfield and a station at Roath make more sense, and, now there is no coal traffic, I'd say there's a case for one at Crwys Rd and/or Monthermer Rd/Fairoak as well.  

 

Journey times by any method are slow west of Swansea, except along the improved A40, with some work in the last few decades on the A478.  The train is probably competitive with private car into Swansea centre (but not Carmarthen which has no central railway station, never has) from St Clear's by the time you've negotiated Swansea traffic and parked up, but as soon as you go with someone else the rail cost doubles and the car cost per person halves.  The buses are phenomenally slow, and many divert to serve local estates or school runs.

 

I'd agree that the background to this is WAG fishing for cash, and good luck to them say I, but the elephant in the room is the same one it's been since Owain Glyndwr set up the first Welsh parliament, at Machynlleth, from where every part of the country could be accessed in 2 days on horseback (in good weather; a lot of this would have been over mountaintop tracks and ridgeways).  The only place in Wales where the geography is not a serious barrier to transport is the pit-to-port runs of the South Wales valleys (and there are viciously steep gradients in many of these); the main geological and geophysical barriers are aligned in a SW-NE direction at 90 degrees to the traffic requirements, which do not justify the cost of the long tunnels through hard igneous or metamorphic rock that are needed to satisfy them.  Even on the main lines, speeds reduce the further west you go, as they do on the roads with the exceptions of the A40 and A55.  Blockages of mountain passes in winter are less common with global warming, but still have an impact if you work in Hirwaun and live in Treorchy, ditto Merthyr and Brynmawr, or Llanrwst and Blaenau Ffestiniog.

 

 

[The Johnster]

As for a through route north-south, say, Cardiff-Holyhead, this has been a dream for a century and a half, but does not have a good track (sorry) record.  It's modern equivalent is the largely pointless political statement of a daily air service from Rhoose to Valley.  It could at one time be achieved by rail, without going east of the dyke, via the Mid Wales from Brecon or the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth route, thence via Dovey Jc to Pwllheli and the Afon Wen route or Dolgellau-Bala Jc-Blaenau Ffestiniog-Conway.  A serious undertaking for anyone mad enough to attempt it, with frequent changes and slow trains, single lines once north Merthyr or Carmarthen.  It was quicker and much easier to go over 100 miles out of your way through the English Marches.  

 

By road nowadays it cannot be done sensibly in much less than 5½ hours, while if the traffic is kind to you on the M6 you can easily do it in an hour less via Birmingham, 200 miles out of your way but you probably break even on the fuel.  Imagine you were trying to build a railway to do this journey now from scratch.  You'd probably want to have a spinal route from Brecon to Bala as direct as possible, Brecon tapping South and West traffic and Bala tapping it from the Deeside conurbations via a re-opened Wrexham-Dolgellau/Barmouth Jc route.  You'd have a hub at Moat Lane assuming the use of the old Mid Wales trackbed for interchange with the existing Cambrian.  But look at the terrain between Moat Lane and Bala.  If you go over Llanbrymair there is a valley leading due north that will start you off, but you're soon in major geophysical doodoo in some very rough country.  It'll cost about the same as HS2, and there will not be 100th of the traffic!  Your speeds are going to be pegged back by curvature and gradients, probably 70mph and 50 in some sections.

 

The Manchester and Milford was not a success.  There is a reason for that; it was easier to go via Crewe, the North to West, and the SWML.  I'm Welsh and proud of it, left wing nationalist by politics though gawdelpus if we ever gain power when I look at some of my fellow travellers, but even I cannot see any future in a north-south route entirely, or even mostly, within Wales.  They've been improving the A470 to 50mph north of Merthyr for about half a century now and it's still a sub 30mph mess between Trawsfynydd and Llanrwst over the Crimea, not to mention the biker killer bend just north of Storey Arms.

 

South Coast to North or vice versa by road is spectacular on a fine clear day if you're not in any rush; cruise along, take in the scenery, stop for lunch somewhere in central Powys, make sure you've started with a full tank if it's a Sunday.  Otherwise, take the English motorways and look where you're going.  By rail, use the North to West and relax; break your journey at Shrewsbury or Ludlow for lunch if you've time.

Edited June 5, 2020 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

The problem is nobody wants to go from places like Holyhead, Llandudno or Bangor to Cardiff. They want to go to Liverpool, Manchester and Chester as they are the places with all the amenities, nightlife and shops.

 

They would be better off improving the links to the Merseyrail network and with the ex CLC lines to Manchester. Maybe with the new trains which are apparently going to be future proofed for being able to be converted for use on non electrified lines. I still think they should have toilets mind.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_777

 

Reopening the Halton Curve was a massive step forward. That's the sort of project they need to do. Not pandering to a few waste of space politicians who are just trying to justify themselves being in a pointless job in the Assembly.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48311912

 

 

 

Jason

[CazRail]

Quite surprised to see the Amlwch branch also in the longer term category. NR are in the process of leasing it out to Anglesey Central Railway Ltd, who are doing some excellent work clearing vegetation etc on the line. A service to Amlwch would be great for the island, especially there being the poor bus service north of Llangefni. Whichever way the line is opened, a new bridge 16 is needed!

 

Bangor-Caernarfon would definitely be good, and seeing how busy the buses are between the two places would definitely be a hit. But this also has its challenges, with Parc Menai businesses park, houses, a bypass and associated roundabout built on the old line's foundations, as well as the need for atleast 3 bridges to be put back! 

 

We shall see what comes of it, if any.

Edited June 5, 2020 by CazRail

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The Manchester and Milford was not a success.  There is a reason for that; it was easier to go via Crewe, the North to West, and the SWML.  I'm Welsh and proud of it, left wing nationalist by politics though gawdelpus if we ever gain power when I look at some of my fellow travellers, but even I cannot see any future in a north-south route entirely, or even mostly, within Wales.  They've been improving the A470 to 50mph north of Merthyr for about half a century now and it's still a sub 30mph mess between Trawsfynydd and Llanrwst over the Crimea, not to mention the biker killer bend just north of Storey Arms.

 

Thank you Johnster, once again you've articulated what I failed to.  It makes no sense to build a railway from A to B via C/D rather than E/F/G/H when the latter serves at least ten times the population, but happens to be across a National border.

 

2 hours ago, MartinWales said:

So forgive me for asking what is the per capita spending on transport in the South East? Comparing it to the North East?

 

Don't forget what's happened with the Borders Railway, which has been an outstanding success, not that I'm saying that this would be, but   

I completely agree that areas outside SE England need a better share of rail investment, so long as the local population realise that in the SE, we also pay for it (pence/mile is rather higher in the London suburbs than elsewhere in the UK).  Everyone needs to be careful what they are wishing for.  The Borders Railway has been a spectacular success (although completed well over budget) but while extending to Hawick I can understand, beyond there it serves a lot more sheep than people.  

[KeithHC]

When I lived in Pembrokeshire the train was hardly used. If I needed to go east then it was quicker to drive to Port Talbot parkway. For a period I used Southampton to Cardiff then my Wife would pick me up a drive home in about 1hr 30. I did not even bother to see how long it would take by train(I lived a couple of minutes walk from Kilgetty station).

 

Keith

[MartinWales]

1 hour ago, CazRail said:

Quite surprised to see the Amlwch branch also in the longer term category. NR are in the process of leasing it out to Anglesey Central Railway Ltd, who are doing some excellent work clearing vegetation etc on the line. A service to Amlwch would be great for the island, especially there being the poor bus service north of Llangefni. Whichever way the line is opened, a new bridge 16 is needed!

 

Bangor-Caernarfon would definitely be good, and seeing how busy the buses are between the two places would definitely be a hit. But this also has its challenges, with Parc Menai businesses park, houses, a bypass and associated roundabout built on the old line's foundations, as well as the need for atleast 3 bridges to be put back! 

 

We shall see what comes of it, if any.

For the former, I believe the legal grumblings are still going on!

 

For the latter Parc Menai, parts of the realigned A487 , including several houses and  Morrisons in Caernarfon, being a few of the challenges to face. Oh and the Treborth tunnels too, which are now a rifle range. 

[Northmoor]

34 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

When I lived in Pembrokeshire the train was hardly used. If I needed to go east then it was quicker to drive to Port Talbot parkway. For a period I used Southampton to Cardiff then my Wife would pick me up a drive home in about 1hr 30. I did not even bother to see how long it would take by train(I lived a couple of minutes walk from Kilgetty station).

 

When the 125s were introduced, it was noted that it took three hours to get to Swansea, then another two on to Milford (and longer to Pembroke Dock*.  It's significantly quicker now, but why I've long thought the Carmarthen reversal needs to be abolished and a new station built that better suits the needs of 21st Century travellers.

 

*There have always been exceptions; the daytime "Hibernian" from Fishguard to Paddington used to do it in about 3hr 45mins.

[corneliuslundie]

I looked a while ago at Carmarthen-Aberystwyth. There are about 11 buses a day if I remember and they are far faster than the trains ever were as well as serving more places. There aren't too many potential passengers at Strata Florida or Tregaron bog, whereas there are places along the coast which the through line never served. I was amud at the suggestion that the service would be busy because there are lots of students in Carmarthen, Lampeter and Aberystwyth.

What annoys me is that having announced how they were going to increase capacity, the Welsh Assembly then agreed to only enough of the new units being fitted with ERTMS to replace existing units one-for-one, and with fewer seats in total (but more standing room). That scuppers the promises on a full hourly service of the Cambrian main line and extra services on the coast, though that is still being promised as far as I can gather.

But the WA (sorry, Welsh Government now) has been trying hard with long distance buses. The T4 connects Newtown and Cardiff. The T12 now connects Machynlleth and Wrexham via most of the population centres in between. And at weekends travel on them has been free, which has seen a considerable increase in usage not just at weekends but through the week (not at the moment of course when most are running completely empty - well, there is a driver!).

The route of the Mid Wales Railway is beautiful but traffic was always going to be small. Yes, it formed a strategic link between the Severn Valley and Brecon, but was never busy except with coal traffic during the First World War. Back early in the 20th century there was an attempt to co-ordinate the Welsh railways to form a realistic north-south route but it came to nothing despite Parliamentary approval. The traffic is just not there.

Now if sheep commuted by rail . . .

Jonathan

 

[Zomboid]

11 hours ago, CazRail said:

Bangor-Caernarfon would definitely be good, and seeing how busy the buses are between the two places would definitely be a hit. But this also has its challenges, with Parc Menai businesses park, houses, a bypass and associated roundabout built on the old line's foundations, as well as the need for atleast 3 bridges to be put back! 

This is what I meant earlier. If a new line is needed between Bangor and Caernarfon (and I could well imagine that it would be) then a new route to 21st century standards is what should be investigated. The existence of some old earthworks on land which has been sold shouldn't drive the alignment. Though I do accept that a new route might make use of a lot of them.

[The Johnster]

Why not build it on stilts out on the Afon Menai foreshore?  No land purchase needed, and a bit of tourist scenic potential; it could terminate just east of the castle and it's not a long walk into 'town' from there.

[br2975]

Waungron Park - Cardiff, Cardiff - Carmarthen, Carmarthen - Aberystwyth, Aberystwyth - Machynlleth, Machynlleth - Pwllheli, Pwllheli-Afon Wen - Caernarvon, Caernarvon - Holyhead

.

My new Senior Railcard would have expired by the time I reached Holyhead, as probably I would have.

.

But then why would anyone in their right mind want to go to Holyhead ?

.

I went there once..... it was shut !

[CazRail]

19 minutes ago, br2975 said:

Waungron Park - Cardiff, Cardiff - Carmarthen, Carmarthen - Aberystwyth, Aberystwyth - Machynlleth, Machynlleth - Pwllheli, Pwllheli-Afon Wen - Caernarvon, Caernarvon - Holyhead

.

My new Senior Railcard would have expired by the time I reached Holyhead, as probably I would have.

.

But then why would anyone in their right mind want to go to Holyhead ?

.

I went there once..... it was shut !

I always say the best thing about Holyhead is the ferry out of there! 

[dagrizz]

SWMBO and myself had a couple of nights in the Travelodge in Holyhead two years ago and the walking/scenery thereabouts was fine. The town though...well ...I don't think any of our UK town centres are likely to improve much given recent events but Holyhead does need some help.

 

Graham