The Night Mail

[jamie92208]

They look even better in the flesh.  I hope that the hooter is healing Dave.

 

I've just got back from a railway themed day. First up  model Railway Group lunch and meeting. John's garden layout is going to be something else. His garden is 200 yards long on what was a sloping field. He's been building a 7 1/4" 0-4-0 for some years and had plans for a line about 100'long. As a result of a legacy and with the full support of his other half the plans have now expanded and steel and sleepers have been ordered. The line will now climb 10m in it's wanderings round the garden then end at a turntable.  I look forward to seeing progress. I then set off to Tours and enjoyed  2 hours of trainspotting till the evening sunlight faded. Plenty of freights.  Not a bad day.

 

Jamie

Edited October 16, 2021 by jamie92208

[AndyID]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I don't think anybody really does.

 

I think Collet twigged that compound expansion was a lot of additional complexity for little or no return, at least as far as the railways in the UK were concerned.

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Afternoon all,

 

 

I've finally gotten to the stage of building my engine where it is imperative that it gets proper wheels. So today I undertook the making of a CAD model for 3d printing in bronze or steel by Shapeways. The cost overall comes out to around $200, which is less than what I would be paying for machined Walsall wheels.

 

 

 

 

I'm still not sure this is the way forward, as I have yet to meet with the machinist to see if he would machine raw castings.

 

 

Douglas

 

If you send me the model I can take a shot at printing them with FDM. I have some filament that's really sturdy stuff. I could probably machine some steel tires for them too. At the least it could be an interesting exercise

[Dave Hunt]

26 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

I think Collet twigged that compound expansion was a lot of additional complexity for little or no return, at least as far as the railways in the UK were concerned.

 

Compounding is a more efficient use of steam and hence fuel when used for relatively long periods of constant power output - hence it was used extensively in marine engines. The Midland Compounds, which were about the best of the different types tried in Britain, were designed for long distance express working and in that role did indeed show improved efficiency as a result. When relegated to secondary roles involving short distances between stops, for which they were unsuited, they were no better than simple expansion engines, in fact they were often not as good as the drivers didn't even get them to work as compounds at all. Similarly, in the USA compounding was used successfully on some of the long distance workings.

 

Dave   

[Florence Locomotive Works]

44 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

If you send me the model I can take a shot at printing them with FDM. I have some filament that's really sturdy stuff. I could probably machine some steel tires for them too. At the least it could be an interesting exercise

I'll make a few more adjustments to the model and then you can expect a PM sometime tonight.

[AndyID]

3 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Compounding is a more efficient use of steam and hence fuel when used for relatively long periods of constant power output - hence it was used extensively in marine engines. The Midland Compounds, which were about the best of the different types tried in Britain, were designed for long distance express working and in that role did indeed show improved efficiency as a result. When relegated to secondary roles involving short distances between stops, for which they were unsuited, they were no better than simple expansion engines, in fact they were often not as good as the drivers didn't even get them to work as compounds at all. Similarly, in the USA compounding was used successfully on some of the long distance workings.

 

Dave   

 

Quite so, but pretty much NBG on the railways in Britain

 

Collett twigged that he could get almost the same efficiency in practice from more cylinders to maximize the volume using simple expansion with early cutoff, and efficiency is only one bit of the equation. But don't assume from this that I'm a big fan of the GWR.  Just someone who has done a bit of thermo.

 

BTW, we now have access to the most amazing tools to analyze thermodynamic systems. 100 years ago the engineers had to find out a lot by trial and error.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

13 minutes ago, AndyID said:

thermodynamic systems

Agreed, that's why Chapelon and later Porta were so successful, each studied thermodynamics.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Happy Hippo]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Afternoon all,

 

 

I've finally gotten to the stage of building my engine where it is imperative that it gets proper wheels. So today I undertook the making of a CAD model for 3d printing in bronze or steel by Shapeways. The cost overall comes out to around $200, which is less than what I would be paying for machined Walsall wheels.

 

 

 

 

I'm still not sure this is the way forward, as I have yet to meet with the machinist to see if he would machine raw castings.

 

 

Douglas

He's building a Spam Can!

[Florence Locomotive Works]

3 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

He's building a Spam Can!

Quick call HM's Customs...

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 14/10/2021 at 19:19, J. S. Bach said:

The Indiana Harbor Belt's 0-8-0s had a booster on the leadtwo-axle tender truck. They were some of largest 0-8-0s built. AHM offered them in O and HO. I had the O kit put together but lacked the drive kit. It could be assembled as a stationary model  or a powered one; the motorizing kit cost almost as much as the locomotive kit and are very hard to find now.

I've seen a few on eBay, always looked a bit funny.

 

Not as strange as one of these though!

 

 

A former NER 4-4-2 with integral tender booster added by Gresley. Not a great success unfortunately, the trains simply weren't heavy enough.

 

More here:

https://www.lner.info/article/tech/compound/boosters.php

[BR60103]

19 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

(and to forestall things like SWMBO saying “your friend Fred has his gallbladder removed and he didn’t get an XXXX” perhaps we should establish a tariff? So a few stitches are worth (rewarded by) one new goods wagon, a colonoscopy is worth a new rake of coaches, minor surgery is worth a new locomotive and so on.)

A colonoscopy would probably get you a Victorian Gents.

 

[Happy Hippo]

4 hours ago, BR60103 said:

A colonoscopy would probably get you a Victorian Gents.

 

Or a tunnel!

[jamie92208]

9 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Or a tunnel!

But one without a light at the other end.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, AndyID said:

Collett twigged that he could get almost the same efficiency in practice from more cylinders to maximize the volume using simple expansion with early cutoff, and efficiency is only one bit of the equation.

 

I don't understand why you attribute this insight to Collett; it was Churchward who had weighed the de Glehn 4-cylinder compound in the balance and concluded that for the Great Western's requirements a 4-cylinder simple would be the better option. But under typical French operating conditions, the Star would have struggled to match a de Glehn compound - factors such as the type of fuel used and the superior engineering training of French drivers would count for much.

 

Fun factoid: Alfred de Glehn grew up in Sydenham. He had a sister who both married a bishop and campaigned for women's suffrage. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Compound2632

[AndyID]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't understand why you attribute this insight to Collett; it was Churchward who had weighed the de Glehn 4-cylinder compound in the balance and concluded that for the Great Western's requirements a 4-cylinder simple would be the better option. 

 

I believe you are quite correct. Wrong GW engineer on my part Mea culpa.

[Happy Hippo]

At the risk of being  welded to a copper capped chimney and having a brass safety valve cover riveted to my gentleman parts, I was always under the impression that Charles Collett was not that great a designer, and just continued the development of what Churchward had in mind.

 

It would have been interesting if Stanier had not gone to the LMS and been appointed the GWR CME instead.  I suspect that if that had been the case, the King class may very well have been a pacific with outside valve gear, although I cannot for the life of me think what it would have looked like.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Fun factoid: Alfred de Glehn grew up in Sydenham. He had a sister who both married a bishop and campaigned for women's suffrage. 

Is that what they mean by a Suffragan Bishop?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Oldddudders

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

At the risk of being  welded to a copper capped chimney and having a brass safety valve cover riveted to my gentleman parts, I was always under the impression that Charles Collett was not that great a designer, and just continued the development of what Churchward had in mind.

 

By the 20th century, a CME didn't have to be a great designer of locomotives; he had to be a good manager who could get the best out of the excellent locomotive designers in his drawing office team. I would say that in their different ways, Collett, Fowler, and Stanier seem to have achieved that as well as their circumstances permitted. On the other hand, Maunsell and Gresley seem to have been both talented designers and good managers, but I doubt either of them actually spent many hours at the drawing-board.

[New Haven Neil]

Morning.  Missed last night!

 

Collet/Churchward/Hawksworth, all the same just like their locomotives....  (for the benefit of doubt, this is a joke).

 

Today is going to be mostly...

 

The recently rebuilt Car 7, rather splendid.

 

Then a bit of this....

 

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

By the 20th century, a CME didn't have to be a great designer of locomotives; he had to be a good manager who could get the best out of the excellent locomotive designers in his drawing office team. I would say that in their different ways, Collett, Fowler, and Stanier seem to have achieved that as well as their circumstances permitted. On the other hand, Maunsell and Gresley seem to have been both talented designers and good managers, but I doubt either of them actually spent many hours at the drawing-board.

Gresley's conjugated valve gear being a case in point.

 

Although, both simple and functional it caused various technical problems throughout it's life, and the related overheating bearing problems were only solved towards the end of the steam era when 'GWR' style big ends were fitted.

 

(It was a lot more complex than than the brief description above. It  Harold Holcroft did a lot of work on the reasons why it was causing issues and the cure).

 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

 

The recently rebuilt Car 7, rather splendid.

 

2+1 seating - must be first class!

[Happy Hippo]

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

2+1 seating - must be first class!

Or the setting for the latest garbage from Channel 4!

[Dave Hunt]

11 hours ago, AndyID said:

Collett twigged that he could get almost the same efficiency in practice from more cylinders to maximize the volume using simple expansion with early cutoff, and efficiency is only one bit of the equation.

 

As with most things concerning steam locomotive engineering, there is no single or simple answer to a problem or desired characteristic and the side effects of any introduced feature have to be taken into account. Whilst it is true that maximised cylinder volume and streamlined steam passages enabling very early cutoffs to be used does increase the efficiency and therefore result in reduced fuel costs (and we tend to forget that costs and the bottom line of the balance sheet was what really drove mechanical innovations rather than some desire to have better machines than the opposition or future enthusiasts to argue over), there were some detrimental side effects. One of them was the increased wear in axleboxes, particularly in the rear boxes of six or eight coupled locomotives. The Royal Scots, despite being efficient (at least in the context of steam locomotives, which are actually horribly inefficient at best) and able to run on short cutoffs suffered badly from this and a Scot with worn back boxes was reputedly an extremely uncomfortable place to be at times. As a deceased friend who was a mechanical inspector at Derby working with John Powell said of them, "Hurtling along on very short cutoffs, even on a three cylinder engine, used to knock hell out of the back boxes and the shocks could start to cause allsorts of trouble with the frames and other components." It was suggested in the late 40s that fitting roller bearing back boxes was a way of solving the problem but was discounted as being too costly. An old railwayman I used to know told me that when driving a Princess Royal, which was, of course, a four cylinder machine, he would always run at longer cutoffs than was considered by some to be the best way simply to avoid punishing the back boxes too much. The Compounds, when working as true compound expansion engines, used longer cutoffs than similarly powerful simple expansion engines and were thus kinder on boxes.

 

There are, of course, myriad arguments and counter, counter-counter and.......... arguments surrounding this and probably any other feature of steam locomotives and I don't want to start this nice, chatty forum down that road but I just thought it worthwhile to put a bit of perspective on things.

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

By the 20th century, a CME didn't have to be a great designer of locomotives; he had to be a good manager who could get the best out of the excellent locomotive designers in his drawing office team. I would say that in their different ways, Collett, Fowler, and Stanier seem to have achieved that as well as their circumstances permitted. On the other hand, Maunsell and Gresley seem to have been both talented designers and good managers, but I doubt either of them actually spent many hours at the drawing-board.

 

Quite agree Stephen. Most of the design of 'Stanier' locomotives was overseen by the Chief Draughtsman, Tommy Coleman, although the great man did lay down principles and, as Eric Langridge once related, he would visit the drawing offices and look at what was being produced then make critical comments and suggestions. Apparently he would look at a piece of work on a drawing board and if there was a drawn out "Hmmmm..." sound everyone would brace themselves for some strongly suggested alteration.

 

Have a nice weekend people.

 

Dave        

[Dave Hunt]

2 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

Today is going to be mostly...

 

The recently rebuilt Car 7, rather splendid.

 

Then a bit of this....

 

 

 

 

Where is the "Jammy Sod" button when you need it?

 

No need to ask if you will be having a nice weekend then Neil.

 

Dave

[simontaylor484]

Good Afternoon 

 

Sorry to take the discussion away from various forms of kettles I had a result in one of the rat traps with Peanut butter. A lovely catch the trap had snapped shut just behind its ears.