Non member view and thoughts about the Gauge O guild

[fail safe]

Most people are not aware that S7 wheels will run on fine scale track  (that is the normal 32mm gauge) as long as the back to back is adjusted slightly and you have well laid crossings. Nobody can detect the track gauge being 1mm different.   The beauty of not having 33 mm gauge S7 track is that you can run finescale and S7 (b to b adjusted) stock together!

Edited September 3, 2020 by fail safe

[009 micro modeller]

48 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

It's a slightly humourous play on terms - meaning that someone models everything else to the highest standards they can, except for the track & wheels. This is because adopting S7 for track & wheels is a bit of a waste of effort if the rest of the layout has mediocre scenery & buildings.

 

I completely agree, and I think the same point applies to all finescale modelling (I remember once, for example, seeing a P4 layout where all the track and railway buildings were beautifully made but the rest of the scenery was not great and nothing was really weathered/toned down convincingly). I just thought the actual name ‘S7’ referred to a standard defined as a track gauge and rail/wheel standard.

[009 micro modeller]

14 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

Sometimes people have thought about creating a 'Society' but think you can do it without a structure (no chairman etc) but that is fraught with problems as there is no clear leadership. 

 

And has the potential to end up with an even more toxic environment, in the sense that there may not even be a way for members to vote the leadership out if they don’t like how things are going. More to the point, if you want to run exhibitions and insure these being a proper society is probably helpful, and manufacturers of kits etc. that you might commission for members are likely to negotiate more readily with a group than what appears to them to be an individual working on behalf of themselves and some friends.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, PMP said:

 

I don’t understand why you need a society or formal group though. Your position sounds like mine but I work primarily in 4mm. I attend S4 shows and similar finescale events. I can buy from the society shop there or online/shows for independent traders. I don’t have a need for a society, though I appreciate the efforts they go to in supporting their section of the hobby.

 

I think you've just demonstrated why you need a society to exist, even if you choose not to be a member of it.

[hayfield]

5 hours ago, PMP said:

 

I don’t understand why you need a society or formal group though. Your position sounds like mine but I work primarily in 4mm. I attend S4 shows and similar finescale events. I can buy from the society shop there or online/shows for independent traders. I don’t have a need for a society, though I appreciate the efforts they go to in supporting their section of the hobby.

 

PMP

 

You echo my old views, which I an afraid I have come to the conclusion were wrong

 

Firstly if you model in either EM or P4 gauges, without these two societies their standards the gauges would not exist. like many others you needed the society to have existed

 

You then say you can access their stores at shows, showing again a need for the society, sadly at the moment your access to the stores has sadly temporally ceased

 

Lastly by not being a member you are missing out on a lot of things, but that is your own choice

 

I joined a club several years ago and immediately regretted not doing so earlier, but you must find a club with like minded members

 

I belong to the EMGS, to have access to both their stores and resources, also to support a society which exists to supply items and further develop as well as support the gauge I am interested in, what else can you get for 50p a week ( I save more than that on buying track parts)

 

Its your choice, I would suggest give one of the societies a try, you never know you might both enjoy membership and get more out of our hobby 

[Guest Isambarduk]

2 hours ago, fail safe said:

The beauty of not having 33 mm gauge S7 track is that you can run finescale and S7 (b to b adjusted) stock together!

Just so. 

 

Additionally, running and looks may be greatly improved at crossings by adopting 0-MF (0-Medium Fine) or 0-SF (0-Super Fine) in which the track gauge is reduced from the 32 mm gauge of 0-Fine to 31.5 mm and 31.25mm, respectively; the rolling stock wheels are unaltered (they may be to 0-Fine or S7 profile).

 

All these standards are all set out in the G0G Standards, which are freely available to all.

 

David

[PMP]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think you've just demonstrated why you need a society to exist, even if you choose not to be a member of it.

With respect I don’t think I have. I’ve only bought two or three specific Scalefour products. The S4 lever frame kit, and the chassis for the GWR toad. Apart from that the only income they have had is show attendance. Every S4um bar three I think since the City Uni days. Since moving oop north I’ve been to a good few S4 north, but none of the EM organised ones or expoEM main annual show since Bletchley days. Nothing against EM but the S4 shows fill the need, and mail order or railex/manchester/warley generally for purchasing requirements. 
 

If S4um or similar shows didn’t exist, I’d miss them, but it wouldn’t curtail the hobby for me, or my purchasing power for want of a better phrase.

[PMP]

33 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

PMP

 

You echo my old views, which I an afraid I have come to the conclusion were wrong

 

Firstly if you model in either EM or P4 gauges, without these two societies their standards the gauges would not exist. like many others you needed the society to have existed

 

You then say you can access their stores at shows, showing again a need for the society, sadly at the moment your access to the stores has sadly temporally ceased

 

Lastly by not being a member you are missing out on a lot of things, but that is your own choice

 

I joined a club several years ago and immediately regretted not doing so earlier, but you must find a club with like minded members

 

I belong to the EMGS, to have access to both their stores and resources, also to support a society which exists to supply items and further develop as well as support the gauge I am interested in, what else can you get for 50p a week ( I save more than that on buying track parts)

 

Its your choice, I would suggest give one of the societies a try, you never know you might both enjoy membership and get more out of our hobby 

Hi,

I’ve been a member of the EM society and the 2FS society in the past. If you were with me at a show and we walked past each society stand their officials (Press gangs), would likely ask when am I going to join, it’s about time etc etc!, and they know my primary interest is OO.
In 4mm scale I’m not entirely with you re gauges etc, c&L and Gibson and other smaller suppliers provided those gauges. There is of course the chicken and egg argument no society/no market generated for gauges. But ‘today’ those items are available over the counter to the common man, the genie is out of the box. So for my (OO) modelling I don’t  need a society to get where I’m going because I rarely require an item where the society is sole supplier.

 

Clubs aren’t for me, (excepting hand to hand combat), but I have worked in groups that are co-operatives or a similar loose structure, and they work just fine for me. 
 

And to emphasise I do appreciate the graft that the specialist society teams put in, they are frequently unsung heroes, and across the hobby we benefit greatly from their endeavours.

[LBRJ]

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

But I thought the track and wheels were the main thing, as with P4 etc...

That is not the aim of the Scalefour Society (I am only writing as a member here)

 

It is about doing everything to the highest standards you can achieve; and having the wheels and track correct is only the foundation of that way.

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, SvenL said:

Yesterday I wrote to the guild in order to leave. 

I am now officially not a G0G member anymore.  

This election has been a farse with directors instructing guild members how to vote. Slander against  the reform group Candidates and more. 

I could simply not stay anymore.  

I really liked being a member.  I felt the forum great. 

But I cannot accept the actions of the Guild leadership. 

Now I am hoping for something better to be created. 

Sven 

So basically those people of the GOG have won and the problem has gone away. Why should the leadership change anything, as most of the members apparently accept things as they are.

[fail safe]

Apparently less than 20% of members voted. The numbers were almost split down the middle with traditionalists just getting in. Saying they accept things as they are is a very accurate way of putting it. It's not that people don't particularly care, they just accept things. So they will get the Guild they deserve. Pretty sure some of the worst bits will be changed, such as outrageous expenses for certain people, but the underlying feeling of being outdated will remain unless drastic action is taken.

 

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, PMP said:

Hi,

I’ve been a member of the EM society and the 2FS society in the past. If you were with me at a show and we walked past each society stand their officials (Press gangs), would likely ask when am I going to join, it’s about time etc etc!, and they know my primary interest is OO.
In 4mm scale I’m not entirely with you re gauges etc, c&L and Gibson and other smaller suppliers provided those gauges. There is of course the chicken and egg argument no society/no market generated for gauges. But ‘today’ those items are available over the counter to the common man, the genie is out of the box. So for my (OO) modelling I don’t  need a society to get where I’m going because I rarely require an item where the society is sole supplier.

 

Clubs aren’t for me, (excepting hand to hand combat), but I have worked in groups that are co-operatives or a similar loose structure, and they work just fine for me. 
 

And to emphasise I do appreciate the graft that the specialist society teams put in, they are frequently unsung heroes, and across the hobby we benefit greatly from their endeavours.

 

I think we can agree to differ on this one, I don't think I have ever been accosted by anyone from either the EMGS or Scalefour societies, not saying it does not occur just I have never experienced it.

 

Certainly there are jigs and components available from the societies that are not commercially available and for the finescale track builder in 00 gauge the likes of C&L, Marcway, Gibson and Phoenix Precision do not sell all the fine scale components, gauges and tools that are available. Tell me where you can by a wing rail gauge for 00SF other than a society, or a set of Slip chairs?

 

I accept unless you joining a club which does not either cater for your interests and of friendly can be a total waste of time.

 

However I do understand not wanting to join a society which is not relevant 

 

However if it were not for these two groups you would have no shows to go to

[hayfield]

38 minutes ago, fail safe said:

Apparently less than 20% of members voted. The numbers were almost split down the middle with traditionalists just getting in. Saying they accept things as they are is a very accurate way of putting it. It's not that people don't particularly care, they just accept things. So they will get the Guild they deserve. Pretty sure some of the worst bits will be changed, such as outrageous expenses for certain people, but the underlying feeling of being outdated will remain unless drastic action is taken.

 

 

Change can take time, but you cannot change anything from the outside.

 

Perhaps one way of changing things like expenses is to table a discussion at an AGM, plus if you feel certain members have been slandered again table a motion regarding officers actions at the AGM

[Happy Hippo]

If you are setting up a new society, which in your mind will be better than the one you are dissatisfied with, then  expending more effort trying to change the old one doesn't come into the equation.

 

 

[fail safe]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Change can take time, but you cannot change anything from the outside.

 

Perhaps one way of changing things like expenses is to table a discussion at an AGM, plus if you feel certain members have been slandered again table a motion regarding officers actions at the AGM

Not as simple as that I'm afraid, no offence but you obviously don't know the Guild!. Some of us left because we gave up trying to do things from the inside for very many years.  It's got us nowhere. There is a motion for an audit that was finally passed at the AGM just now apparently. We'll have to wait and see.

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, fail safe said:

Not as simple as that I'm afraid, no offence but you obviously don't know the Guild!. Some of us left because we gave up trying to do things from the inside for very many years.  It's got us nowhere. There is a motion for an audit that was finally passed at the AGM just now apparently. We'll have to wait and see.

 

 

I can understand your frustration, but you definitely cannot change things from the outside. Also when the vast majority take little or no active interest small groups can determine things,

 

It just means that groups like yourselves have to get better organized and keep banning at the door. If as you say the existing cartel are starting to take notice/action, perhaps they are getting worried and change may happen. If the vote was quite close as was stated just keep doing the same things it seems to be working

[PMP]

On ‎04‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 08:44, hayfield said:

 

I think we can agree to differ on this one, I don't think I have ever been accosted by anyone from either the EMGS or Scalefour societies, not saying it does not occur just I have never experienced it.

 

Certainly there are jigs and components available from the societies that are not commercially available and for the finescale track builder in 00 gauge the likes of C&L, Marcway, Gibson and Phoenix Precision do not sell all the fine scale components, gauges and tools that are available. Tell me where you can by a wing rail gauge for 00SF other than a society, or a set of Slip chairs?

 

snip

 

However if it were not for these two groups you would have no shows to go to

 

 

Going off thread here, but I do get encouraged to join, good naturedly by both teams I regularly see on S4 and the 2FS stand, I know them well, and vice versa.

 

I have no requirement to buy  a wing rail gauge or slip chairs, neither do most practioners of OO, the majority are still using set track and Peco CD100, that's why it sells by the shed load. I don't even know what OOSF is. However:

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/track-and-track-making-parts/dccconcepts-track-gauges/

 

I most certainly wouldn't buy a specific chair, there's rarely a need in my experience, except for making sure I was using 2/3 bolt chairs or cement pots as appropriate for the model in hand.

 

Of course I'd have shows to go to, the S4/2FS society are not the organisers of the three I mentioned. Not to mention the many other shows I go to under normal circumstances. Those shows being (not exclusively)

Chiltern/Define/Doncaster/Ally P/York/Derby/Railex/S4N/Larkrail/Warminster/S4um/Leeds/Warley/Manch

 

This is the sort of effect @fail safe mentions. Today, I can quite happily model effectively to my finescale standards and needs without being a member of a gauge/scale society. That's potentially a problem across all the scales for societies to make themselves relevant if they want to capture people in a similar position, let alone stop any outward flow from existing members.

 

edit: back on thread...

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by PMP
last sentence

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

 

 

Going off thread here, but I do get encouraged to join, good naturedly by both teams I regularly see on S4 and the 2FS stand, I know them well, and vice versa.

 

I have no requirement to buy  a wing rail gauge or slip chairs, neither do most practioners of OO, the majority are still using set track and Peco CD100, that's why it sells by the shed load. I don't even know what OOSF is. However:

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/track-and-track-making-parts/dccconcepts-track-gauges/

 

I most certainly wouldn't buy a specific chair, there's rarely a need in my experience, except for making sure I was using 2/3 bolt chairs or cement pots as appropriate for the model in hand.

 

Of course I'd have shows to go to, the S4/2FS society are not the organisers of the three I mentioned. Not to mention the many other shows I go to under normal circumstances. Those shows being (not exclusively)

Chiltern/Define/Doncaster/Ally P/York/Derby/Railex/S4N/Larkrail/Warminster/S4um/Leeds/Warley/Manch

 

This is the sort of effect @fail safe mentions. Today, I can quite happily model effectively to my finescale standards and needs without being a member of a gauge/scale society. That's potentially a problem across all the scales for societies to make themselves relevant if they want to capture people in a similar position, let alone stop any outward flow from existing members.

 

edit: back on thread...

 

 

 

This is where being a member of a society would broaden ones knowledge of the model railway matters. I know everyone has their own take on finescale and from what I have heard you like the better quality shows. whether you are interested in 7 mm or any other gauge the resources the societies provide perhaps would give you a different take on aspects which puts a layout into the finescale category. 

 

As I said, I had the same opinion as you at one time. I now see the hobby a different light and see why even in 00 gauge the need for wing rail gauges.

[PMP]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

This is where being a member of a society would broaden ones knowledge of the model railway matters. I know everyone has their own take on finescale and from what I have heard you like the better quality shows. whether you are interested in 7 mm or any other gauge the resources the societies provide perhaps would give you a different take on aspects which puts a layout into the finescale category. 

 

 

 

Loving the apparent pomposity here. The irony is that you didn't know who could supply a OO wing rail gauge outside of a society. Within a minute or two of looking I'd found one supplier that you didn't even realised made the product, available to the man on the Clapham omnibus. I only put one of the three suppliers I found up.

I think I know what the 'finescale category' is thank you all the same. I think its the one that allowed me to win the visitors cup at Manchester with my OO layout using Peco track.

It's probably also understanding the category that meant the Scalefour Society invited another layout of mine (built in Peco OO), to be the first OO layout exhibited as guest layout at Scaleforum 2019*. I imagine they felt it had something of merit to appeal to their finescale audience.

So I'm pretty sure I know what finescale is, and I think quite a few other people know I know what finescale is too. I also know I don't need a society of any scale or gauge to assist me recognising it.

 

(*Cancelled unfortunately due to serious illness in the family and a bereavement)

There will be an edit to the post to add a couple of images

Edited September 5, 2020 by PMP

[hayfield]

I would like to know which retailer sells 00 gauge wing rail gauges, it would assist many aspiring track builders and I would be happy to pass on their details. I have both Googled them without success and been to various track building suppliers websites again without any joy. Sharing information is one of the joys of our hobby. 

 

Whilst you may not see the need for a range of special chairs for building track, many do and I would assume many of these use one of the 00 gauge variants as those in the finer scales.

 

There are many finescale layouts past and present in many scales including 00 gauge, however many feel that Peco's H0 scale track fails to fall into this category, with Peco themselves entering the finescale 4 mm market with a new range to meet discerning modeler's needs

[ikcdab]

5 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I would like to know which retailer sells 00 gauge wing rail gauges, it would assist many aspiring track builders and I would be happy to pass on their details. I have both Googled them without success and been to various track building suppliers websites again without any joy. Sharing information is one of the joys of our hobby. 

 

Whilst you may not see the need for a range of special chairs for building track, many do and I would assume many of these use one of the 00 gauge variants as those in the finer scales.

 

There are many finescale layouts past and present in many scales including 00 gauge, however many feel that Peco's H0 scale track fails to fall into this category, with Peco themselves entering the finescale 4 mm market with a new range to meet discerning modeler's needs

We're massively off topic here...but a oo wing rail gauge is nothing more than a strip of brass, 0.8, 1mm or 1.2mm thick depending on which brand of oo you are modelling....

Ian

[hayfield]

Ian

 

Agree but I was trying to explain the need for societies, especially where there are a group of like minded members wanting to bring one of our long established organization a bit more up to date and more relevant to the new generation entering into 7 mm scale modelling, but in 00 ( and any other gauge) gauge its a bit more than a bit of brass strip

Edited September 5, 2020 by hayfield

[009 micro modeller]

19 hours ago, PMP said:

Of course I'd have shows to go to, the S4/2FS society are not the organisers of the three I mentioned.

 

I’m not sure how well this translates to other contexts, but the 009 Society rarely has direct involvement in the running of exhibitions. However, many of the major NG shows are run by local groups that wouldn’t exist without the support of the Society and it’s members (together with that of other groups such as the 7mm NGA etc.).

 

On the other hand, another NG example is Gnatterbox, which exists online although people seem to sometimes meet in real life as well. A downside of this is that they seem to occasionally struggle with the forum web hosting bill (which a formal group with paid membership could perhaps sort out more easily), but an advantage is the accessibility of it for contributors/members all over the world, rather than being centred in one country or even one region as traditional societies tend to be.

[kevinlms]

On 04/09/2020 at 17:10, fail safe said:

Apparently less than 20% of members voted.

 

That is irrelevant, because over 80% didn't think the voting was worth their while. That's the only conclusion you can make.

 

Would have thought that particular lesson was learnt on 23 June 2016. If someone didn't vote, they are in no position to complain, if the vote didn't go how they wanted it.

The only difference is that the GOG has voting for it's directors at set periods. Something the 'winners' need to think about, if they don't address key issues, do they want the matter raised again?

[fail safe]

14 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

That is irrelevant, because over 80% didn't think the voting was worth their while. That's the only conclusion you can make.

 

Would have thought that particular lesson was learnt on 23 June 2016. If someone didn't vote, they are in no position to complain, if the vote didn't go how they wanted it.

The only difference is that the GOG has voting for it's directors at set periods. Something the 'winners' need to think about, if they don't address key issues, do they want the matter raised again?

Its not irrelevant in the context that 20% is hugely more than normally vote. I think before it has always been more like 2%. In fact 20% is quite an achievment and the votes were almost split 50-50. The traditionalists tipping the balance. People were spurred on by the reform campaign on both sides. And I agree the issues will be raised time and again if they are not addressed.