And people think larger scales are expensive?

[Listerboy]

I'm a 16mm modeller, and when I used to exhibit, a regular statement I was told was that larger scales are expensive. A roundhouse Millie, a real steam engine retails for £650. Imagine my surprise when I saw the price of a Bachmann Blue Pullman!!! £600, going up to £800!

 

OO has really rocketed in price. I'm glad I jumped ship. 

 

 

[HSB]

The cost of going to 0 Gauge now compares very favourably with the price of the smaller scales and a tank engine with two or three coaches in 0 has a lot more 'presence' than 10 coaches behind a Pacific in 00!

[Nearholmer]

There’s an old rule of thumb that says that a model railway costs roughly the same to create per unit area, whatever the scale/gauge, and I don’t think it’s far wrong.

 

The real monetary danger is collecting, again in any scale or gauge!

[Paul H Vigor]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

There’s an old rule of thumb that says that a model railway costs roughly the same to create per unit area, whatever the scale/gauge, and I don’t think it’s far wrong.

 

The real monetary danger is collecting, again in any scale or gauge!

Re the collecting thing: How many locomotives does one really need to operate a prototypical layout?  

[hayfield]

I am gob smacked at some of the prices for both 00 & N gauge RTR models now cost and even more surprised given the reports of poor running people are happy to pay them

 

Whilst I am a 4mm scale modeler my £200 Dapol 0 gauge Terrier cannot be faulted both in quality and value for money. At the same time I bought a Southeastern Finecast loco kit, again outstanding quality and keenly priced when compared with other similar makes.

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, Listerboy said:

I'm a 16mm modeller, and when I used to exhibit, a regular statement I was told was that larger scales are expensive. A roundhouse Millie, a real steam engine retails for £650. Imagine my surprise when I saw the price of a Bachmann Blue Pullman!!! £600, going up to £800!

 

OO has really rocketed in price. I'm glad I jumped ship. 

 

 

Hardly a fair comparison IMHO. A small tank vs a 6 car unit, lets's have like for like.

How about a 16mm Blue Pullman set? How much would that cost?

 

EDIT To Make a small BLT

By a 00 4 wheel generic tank (Bachmann Junior), some generic 4 wheel coaches (Hornby), track, scenery, controller etc.

All for less than a "Millie"

Edited August 7, 2020 by melmerby

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Re the collecting thing: How many locomotives does one really need to operate a prototypical layout?  

Roughly 20% of the number one owns, unless you are mega-disciplined.

[Talltim]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hardly a fair comparison IMHO. A small tank vs a 6 car unit, lets's have like for like.

How about a 16mm Blue Pullman set? How much would that cost?

 

EDIT To Make a small BLT

By a 00 4 wheel generic tank (Bachmann Junior), some generic 4 wheel coaches (Hornby), track, scenery, controller etc.

All for less than a "Millie"

Alternatively, how much is a live steam 0-4-0 in 00?

[Happy Hippo]

10 hours ago, Listerboy said:

I'm a 16mm modeller, and when I used to exhibit, a regular statement I was told was that larger scales are expensive. A roundhouse Millie, a real steam engine retails for £650. Imagine my surprise when I saw the price of a Bachmann Blue Pullman!!! £600, going up to £800!

 

OO has really rocketed in price. I'm glad I jumped ship. 

 

 

The problem is that Millie is a very basic freelance loco.

 

Go prototypical, and you are immediately adding about £1000 to the price for a small 'scale' 0-4-0t.  Start talking about a live steam Gauge 1 Pacific and then you could be looking at £4000+.  Add to that the rake of 10 coaches, which if built to the same standard as the loco will be about £500 each and you are looking at a train that is worth over £14k!

[melmerby]

53 minutes ago, Talltim said:

Alternatively, how much is a live steam 0-4-0 in 00?

Why?

Your original  comparison was totally invalid (using a generic 0-4-0T vs a highly detailed 6 car diesel train), so now another totally pointless comparison.

The truth is large gauge is much more expensive than 00, so why and make out it isn't?

[melmerby]

How about a proper comparison, like for like?

Loveless G1 Gresley W1 RRP £4200

Hornby   00 Gresley W1 RRP £199

Cost Ratio 21:1 but likely to be less with discounted prices

[Steamport Southport]

It's also sound fitted using two sound modules and has got £300 worth of DCC Controller and other gubbins.

 

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

How about a proper comparison, like for like?

Loveless G1 Gresley W1 RRP £4200

Hornby   00 Gresley W1 RRP £199

That is like comparing apples and wildebeests, but maybe I’m missing your subtle humour.

 

Simple comparitors are things like a highly-detailed plastic r-t-r Terrier, roughly £100 in 00 and £200 in 0, both available for less if you shop around.

 

Truth is, it is possible to enjoy any scale/gauge at low entry-cost, or to spend a great deal on any scale/gauge, so the whole debate is a bit pointless.

 

I guess most of us spend what we can afford on our hobbies, and the absolute spend varies through our lives as other calls on income come and go, and as income itself varies over time.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

40 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

That is like comparing apples and wildebeests, but maybe I’m missing your subtle humour.

 

Simple comparitors are things like a highly-detailed plastic r-t-r Terrier, roughly £100 in 00 and £200 in 0, both available for less if you shop around.

 

Truth is, it is possible to enjoy any scale/gauge at low entry-cost, or to spend a great deal on any scale/gauge, so the whole debate is a bit pointless.

 

I guess most of us spend what we can afford on our hobbies, and the absolute spend varies through our lives as other calls on income come and go, and as income itself varies over time.

 

 

Yes I was pushing the point a bit. But It's a closer comparison than the OPs choice.

 

What about G1?

I believe the OP is saying G1 (16mm) is comparable to 00 price wise.

Taking a really basic generic loco (why not use a Mamod - they're even cheaper?) and comparing it to a detailed 00 6 car DMU is IMHO just ridiculous.

 

The Dapol product is interesting as it makes a much better comparison between 00 & 0, a G1 on that basis would probably be around £400.

When Ian Allan in Brum were closing they had some of the 0 gauge with big discounts, I was sorely temped to buy a GWR tank and a panelled auto trailer, where to run it didn't come in to my mind.

A ratio of around 4-5:1 would seem reasonable for 00 to G1 with similar specifications

[Zomboid]

You can spend what you like on what you like to an extent.

 

I've got a freelance battery powered wooden 16mm diesel loco kit that cost about £40. And there's loads of such things out there, cheap freelance wagon and coach kits etc. It's low on detail but I think that's the point of them, they're designed to be run and viewed from 10 feet away.

 

The peco track for 16mm/ SM32 isn't cheap though. £50 for a single point makes it quite important to plan and optimise your layouts before buying the bits...

[Nearholmer]

G1 plastic r-t-r would, I think, have a much more limited market than 0, so a much higher unit price, I guess.

 

G scale, OTH, has an established place in the market, has some genuine toy-market appeal, and is not hugely expensive at entry level. A ‘toy’ LGB starter set complete with track and controller is c£200, and a ‘model’ LGB starter set with track and controller c£350.

 

Now, these prices are probably three times the equivalent Hornby 00 starter sets, so at one level they prove a contention that “bigger is more expensive”, but I know which one will survive intensive use, remain rock-solid, and get handed-on to the next generation, and which won’t, so value for money enters into matters too.

[Talltim]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Why?

Your original  comparison was totally invalid (using a generic 0-4-0T vs a highly detailed 6 car diesel train), so now another totally pointless comparison.

The truth is large gauge is much more expensive than 00, so why and make out it isn't?

Erm, I hadn’t made any other comparisons...

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Re the collecting thing: How many locomotives does one really need to operate a prototypical layout?  

One needs to establish this by making up a working timetable and providing enough locos to run it, taking note of the specific requirements of some locomotive diagrams such as auto fitted or perhaps tablet exchange locos.  Then you need to assess how kong each duty’s working day is; most locos carried enough coal to keep them in business for about 12 hours, work for two sets of crew prepping, working, and disposing the loco, assuming steam.  
 

Then you need enough spare locos to cover all the duties in your WTT, which I reckon on Cwmdimbath to be 1 loco in 5.  Every 10 working days each loco must come out of service for at least 2 working days to have a boiler washout, and most minor repairs will be carried out during this period; some of these will have to be done when the loco is not in steam and cold. 
 

Add a few arbitrary restrictions (loco A is overdue a work visit and is unsuitable for fast passenger work, loco B was involved in a minor derailment yesterday and needs a full examination) of your own and you will begin to think like a real shed foreman, who’d always like about 50% more locos and crews than he’s actually got!

 

 

 

[skipepsi]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Roughly 20% of the number one owns, unless you are mega-disciplined.

in my case 2% is still too many. Large disposal ahead...

[cctransuk]

16 hours ago, Listerboy said:

I'm a 16mm modeller, and when I used to exhibit, a regular statement I was told was that larger scales are expensive. A roundhouse Millie, a real steam engine retails for £650. Imagine my surprise when I saw the price of a Bachmann Blue Pullman!!! £600, going up to £800!

 

OO has really rocketed in price. I'm glad I jumped ship. 

 

 

 

A totally pointless and meaningless comparison.

 

Please quote the price comparison between a Hornby 'Smokey Joe' and a Roundhouse 'Millie' - see what I mean?

 

John Isherwood.

[The Johnster]

There are probably too many variables to make meaningful comparison.  If a model is half the size of another otherwise identical one, it should be twice the prices, shouldn't it, because the work of reproducing that level of detail costs twice as much for the smaller one, doesn't it, so an 00 loco should be roughly twice the price of an 0 gauge one.  Ah, no, hang on a minute, the 0 model should be more expensive because of course any manufacturer worth his salt will have made it considerably more detailed, with more separate and working parts correctly reproduced, than the 00 one.  

 

No, that's not right, let's look at it holistically.  If 0 costs twice 00 then the overall cast of the 0 layout, which needs less stock than the 00 which has more track scale mileage to fill, the two should work out equal, right?  What about N then...

 

I don't think anybody has designed a layout, and proposed a range of stock for it, lets say Minories because everybody knows that, and priced it up in both 4mm and 7mm to see what the difference actually would be.  Even this is not a true guide; the larger space required for the 7mm is a cost to be considered, and it's about 4 times larger, not twice, because that's how area works.

 

I give up, but at least I've shown you all why!

[Nearholmer]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Please quote the price comparison between a Hornby 'Smokey Joe' and a Roundhouse 'Millie' - see what I mean?

About £30 and about £600. Which is another meaningless comparison, given that the substance obtained for each sum is incomparably different.

 

What is this thread actually about?

 

Why does the OP’s original remark, which seemed pretty light-hearted to me, raise such passion? 

I honestly don’t get it, but am fascinated by the psychology at play here.
 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[The Johnster]

Me too likewise also as well and similarly.

[cctransuk]

12 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

About £30 and about £600. Which is another meaningless comparison, given that the substance obtained for each sum is incomparably different.

 

What is this thread actually about?

 

Why does the OP’s original remark, which seemed pretty light-hearted to me, raise such passion? 

I honestly don’t get it, but am fascinated by the psychology at play here.
 

 

 

The OP made an invalid comparison - a basic, unprototypical 0-4-0T versus a highly detailed scale model of a six car train with two power cars.

 

I merely pointed out that, had the comparison been between basic, unprototypical 0-4-0Ts in two scales, there would have been no (spurious) point to make.

 

Agreed - the whole premise is nonesense, but then I didn't open the can of (pointless) worms.

 

John Isherwood.

[Paul H Vigor]

12 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

The OP made an invalid comparison - a basic, unprototypical 0-4-0T versus a highly detailed scale model of a six car train with two power cars.

 

I merely pointed out that, had the comparison been between basic, unprototypical 0-4-0Ts in two scales, there would have been no (spurious) point to make.

 

Agreed - the whole premise is nonesense, but then I didn't open the can of (pointless) worms.

 

John Isherwood.

"The pointless worms ARE the weakest link! Goodbye!"