Guest WM183 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) Hi folks. I have a DJH kit that I purchased from ebay a week or so ago for a Standard Class 4 2-6-0. I know it's a DJH kit, and thus shows its age, but I am *relatively* confident that I can coax a good looking model from it. Hwoever, I sort of want to build it to EM or P4 standards. My thinking being if i can do so, and get something decent out of it, then hey! I can do this whole finescale 4mm thing. It certainly is easier to fit a medium sized tender loco and 4 coaches into my available space in 4mm than it would be in 7mm. However, I have two questions? 1) It came with Romford wheels. I like these, as they are self quartering! Nice! But, one side is insulated and the other side is not, leaving the whole loco electrically live - not ideal for DCC. Should I just buy three more insulated wheels - Romford seem to still be around - or is it worth buying Gibson wheels? (( If I go EM / P4, I know I must buy new wheels... still not sold on that. Idk. )) 2) I will build it compensated. The chassis is marked for hornblocks to be cut out, but none are in the kit. Are these a fairly standard thing? And are hornguides with coil springs or CSBs better for a first build? And lastly (Three questions, I LIED!) 3) If i go EM / P4... I have to give up the screw together chassis it comes with. I saw a thread where a builder of a DJH class 5 simply made new frames. Would I be better off doing that (Pretty sure I can manage it, only one way to know!) or would it be easier to just make new frame spacers and use the DJH frames? I'd just buy a Comet, etc, chassis, but... there doesn't seem to be one for this type. Thanks much, Amanda Edited August 19, 2020 by Guest Clarity in Title Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Comet LCP46 is the chassis I have in my stash. There is a detail pack too and other detail components are available from AGW 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 33 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: Comet LCP46 is the chassis I have in my stash. There is a detail pack too and other detail components are available from AGW Thank you! I will just get that chassis kit I suppose. And pardon my ignorance, but... AGW? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 32 minutes ago, WM183 said: Thank you! I will just get that chassis kit I suppose. And pardon my ignorance, but... AGW? AGW = Alan Gibson Workshop, sorry. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 OH! Derp. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 CSB might be easier than individual springs. High level do hornmlocks and the csb carriers. The Romford wheels should be ok for EM but you will need new wheels for P4. You could just replace the spacers and use the existing frames Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Thanks much Paul. It is good to know i can use my existing wheels, or a few anyways. I will of course need EM length axles. I will get the new frames, as the frames in the kit are nearly 40 thousandths thick! I am sure they're strong, but they also would make me thin somewhere if i just soldered them to EM spacers, I believe? Also the comet kit comes with joined rods, etc., plus a MUCH better pony truck - the one in the DJH kit is a lump of lead. The DJH tender will also get a new chassis, as the DJH variant doesn't have bearings; just slots in a block of metal that the wheels sit in, kind of like a Bachmann chassis. I will also probably need new pony and tender wheels, as there is no axle length to regauge these ones. C'est la vie! So far it seems I need: Comet chassis kit, comet tender chassis kit + tender frames, and EM gauge spacers 3 new insulated Romford drivers New pony and tender wheelsets High Level gearbox, motor, and springy beam / hornblock bits. There is a Romford axlebox + Mashima 1624 motor on the bay, but a High Level box is much better? Aside from wire, etc., can anyone else think of something I would need? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted August 20, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 20, 2020 The old style Romford wheels are no longer available, all replaced by Markits wheels which are not the same. EM axles (and even P4 now) are readily available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 30 minutes ago, Michael Edge said: The old style Romford wheels are no longer available, all replaced by Markits wheels which are not the same. EM axles (and even P4 now) are readily available. Ahh. Well thanks for the information! Would I be better served by using Markits wheels or Gibson, in that case? Amanda Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted August 20, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 20, 2020 Markits wheels are fine although they are overscale width in EM gauge - not too much of a problem with this loco, especially if you leave the cylinders in the standard DJH pushed out position. Gibson look much better, they are now just about 100% reliable but some modellers have great difficulty fitting them. The Gibson crankpin system may cause clearance problems behind the crossheads. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2020 Also, I'm 99.9% sure that Markits (was Romford) don't offer a wheel suitable for P4. HTH 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I built a number of EM gauge locos using DJH kits about 20 years ago with rigid chassis retaining the original wheels, frames, valve and brake gear. The underframes are fairly basic by todays standards but excellent layout locos bomb proof mechanically with heavy brass frames Romford/Markits wheels, Mashima can motors and 2 stage Branchlines gearboxes. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 On 19/08/2020 at 18:25, WM183 said: Hi folks. I have a DJH kit that I purchased from ebay a week or so ago for a Standard Class 4 2-6-0. I know it's a DJH kit, and thus shows its age, but I am *relatively* confident that I can coax a good looking model from it. Hwoever, I sort of want to build it to EM or P4 standards. My thinking being if i can do so, and get something decent out of it, then hey! I can do this whole finescale 4mm thing. It certainly is easier to fit a medium sized tender loco and 4 coaches into my available space in 4mm than it would be in 7mm. However, I have two questions? 1) It came with Romford wheels. I like these, as they are self quartering! Nice! But, one side is insulated and the other side is not, leaving the whole loco electrically live - not ideal for DCC. Should I just buy three more insulated wheels - Romford seem to still be around - or is it worth buying Gibson wheels? (( If I go EM / P4, I know I must buy new wheels... still not sold on that. Idk. )) 2) I will build it compensated. The chassis is marked for hornblocks to be cut out, but none are in the kit. Are these a fairly standard thing? And are hornguides with coil springs or CSBs better for a first build? And lastly (Three questions, I LIED!) 3) If i go EM / P4... I have to give up the screw together chassis it comes with. I saw a thread where a builder of a DJH class 5 simply made new frames. Would I be better off doing that (Pretty sure I can manage it, only one way to know!) or would it be easier to just make new frame spacers and use the DJH frames? I'd just buy a Comet, etc, chassis, but... there doesn't seem to be one for this type. Thanks much, Amanda Whilst I do not model either BR Period or like Black locos I bought a DJH Class 4 tank and thinking of making it to EM gauge, if required you could use EM gauge frame spacers from Markits if you want to use screw type frame spacers, you may have to alter the thickness of the cylinders and make/buy some L shaped spacers On 19/08/2020 at 18:33, PenrithBeacon said: Comet LCP46 is the chassis I have in my stash. There is a detail pack too and other detail components are available from AGW If ordering the Comet chassis and you intend to build to EM or P4 gauges you need to order the correct frame spacers as the kits come with 00 gauge ones. I think most will agree the Comet chassis are superior 22 hours ago, Michael Edge said: The old style Romford wheels are no longer available, all replaced by Markits wheels which are not the same. EM axles (and even P4 now) are readily available. You still use the uninsulated wheels, I think they are only ever an issue is double heading. I bought some Markit P4 axles ( they do bump through the crossings) 247 models stock them, I use them to set up the chassis. Once its running and painted change to Gibson's. You could ask if anyone has 3 insulated wheels they are happy to sell. If you are happy with a live chassis the Romford's are fine with 00 and EM and for static P4 display 1 hour ago, polybear said: Also, I'm 99.9% sure that Markits (was Romford) don't offer a wheel suitable for P4. HTH As said not the correct profile and whilst the flanges can be turned to the correct profile the wheels are too thick. But as I said do work to a certain extent and much easier to use whilst building the and setting up the chassis. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, hayfield said: ... If ordering the Comet chassis and you intend to build to EM or P4 gauges you need to order the correct frame spacers as the kits come with 00 gauge ones. I think most will agree the Comet chassis are superior ... Andrew (Major Clanger on here) will replace the standard 00 spacers with spacers of the customers choice if asked. I find that the Comet frame jigs are excellent for building the chassis. Edited August 21, 2020 by PenrithBeacon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Nice to know, I actually sent a message with my order but 00 spacers still arrived with the kit, I had ordered 2 extra sets of EM spacers as well, so I may have caused some confusion. In the end I was not too bothered as it was early on in the lockdown so was very pleased to get anything and Andrew offers a great service at all times. If I could be bothered I could have sold them on anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Hi all, Thanks much for the help so far. I might just try to build it rigid then; I thought EM engines had to be compensated? And I do not plan to double head, and if I ever do, I will make sure to run this one first; the tender will be electrically neutral. I saw a photo once of a Standard 4 double heading with an Ivatt 4 and might like to do that at times - ill just put the BR standard n the lead. The Comet chassis kit also comes with new cylinders and valve gear; is this easier to set up, at the correct width, than the DJH bits? I could just get the Comet pony truck, as it is 100x better than the lump of lead in the kit. OH! And are Romford and Markits wheels on the same axles? I will need new axles at least. Thanks much! Amanda Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 EM loco's don't need to be compensated, but it will improve current collection. I suspect the comet bits will work easier than the DJH, especially if you are using the Comet Chassis. A new set of EM axles from Markits will fit older Romford wheels just fine. If you keep one side of the loco live it does give you the option of having the other side of the tender live and then you don't need any pickups! If you have the tender wheels in a simple sub-chassis that is isolated from the rest of the tender with a thin sheet of plasticard then the main body of it will be electrically dead and they can be coupled together easily. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2020 If you are new to compensation (or springing) and working in OO or EM, then you really can just build the chassis rigid. You could certainly have pick ups on one side of the loco and on the opposite side on the tender (or so arrange it, as Barclay says, that you don't need physical pick ups at all bearing on the wheels), but that will make testing the loco only without the tender impossible, something that I have personally found very annoying and irritating, so I never do that. What will certainly help electrical pick up, however, is to fit conventional pick ups to all tender wheels as well. Personally, I would use all the components in the Comet kit that you can and leave those DJH bits that you don't need for the spares box. In my view, the Comet valve gear looks better than the DJH equivalent. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I have ordered the complete Comet chassis set, as well as chassis + frames for the tender, axles, a new pilot wheel, and a few other bits. I will probably *Try* to build it compensated, which means I will also need hornblocks and springs, I believe? I also have gotten a motor + gearbox, so the only thing I need now is a chassis jig and tender wheels - Wizard was sold out =( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2020 2 hours ago, WM183 said: I will probably *Try* to build it compensated, which means I will also need hornblocks and springs, I believe? Yes to the hornblocks, which High Level can supply you with and they are very good and easy to assemble. Compensation and springing are not the same thing, they both require hornblocks, but compensation is a system of 'suspension' using metal beams (it can be either single beamed or twin beamed, which are differently set up from each other). Put simply, compensation is based on the principle of a three-legged stool having stability. Iain Rice's book on chassis construction (Wild Swan Publications) is probably one of the better sources of more information. For single beam compensation, you would normally have one axle (the driven one, usually the rear axle) as fixed and not having hornblocks, as the bearings on either side would constitute two of the three 'legs' of the stool. Springs would be used if each individual hornblock was going to be sprung. For that, you would need to install hornblocks on all three driven axles (so, six hornblocks). Continuous springy beams is a more recent development in springing and despite what it's exponents may say, is not necessarily that easy to get right first time. If you are a relative beginner to this chassis building lark, then I'd definitely, definitely steer clear of continuous springy beams. There's such a lot more to all this, if you haven't got the Rice chassis book and this is your first chassis build, then I would strongly recommend you get a copy of the book and read the relevant chapter before starting work (or consult some other, informative source). 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Thank you Captain, The book you recommend is the Iain Rice chassis book, yes? I can pick up a copy of that. I'll go for simple compensation, as leaving the rear axle fixed makes fitting a gearbox much easier too. I have built a small armada of brass wagons and coaches, and have worked on loads of brass engines (American brass steam, for the most part) but this will be my first chassis. I am sure I will have a million questions! Amanda Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) The Comet chassis is designed to use Comet hornblocks and springs. Best to stick to them for the time being. That being said, the HL hornblocks are very good but you will need to design and make compensation beams for them or use CSB. Not good for a beginner, I don't like CSB. Edited August 21, 2020 by PenrithBeacon Finger trouble Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 I will email wizard models and ask if I can amend my order, Thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted August 22, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said: The Comet chassis is designed to use Comet hornblocks and springs. Best to stick to them for the time being. That being said, the HL hornblocks are very good but you will need to design and make compensation beams for them or use CSB. Not good for a beginner, I don't like CSB. As you may have noticed, I don't like CSBs either. However, if installing springing (even if Comet's own design), then this indicates that all three axles will need to be sprung, including the driven axle. If you want the driven axle to be fixed, then there are only really two practical alternatives, namely single beam compensation (yes, you would need to source the right size brass tube and beam, probably from Eileens Emporium, then measure and make up the single compensation beam, but if you have acquainted yourself with the principles from Iain Rice's book, then it should be pretty straight forward) or a rigid chassis. Whichever route you go down, I'd recommend familiarising yourself with what Iain has written first. If, however, as you have said, Amanda, that this is your first actual chassis and you're working in EM gauge (as opposed to P4), then you really don't need to compensate or spring it at all. You are also building Walschaerts valve gear, which is an added level of complication. Pick up reliability can, in any case, be improved by adding pick ups to the tender, so the advantages of compensation or springing are not so apparent (as compared with a tank loco, for example). So, whilst all this advice on compensation, springing etc. is all good (and I certainly do not intend to take issue with anything that anyone else has suggested), I would really, really have a long, hard think about whether you need to fit compensation or springing at all. If I was in your situation, I would definitely build the chassis rigid or perhaps have a practice run at compensating or springing on a simpler 0-6-0 tank loco chassis. Edited August 22, 2020 by Captain Kernow Missed something out. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted August 22, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 22, 2020 I would agree with that last comment, start by building one rigid before trying anything more complicated - walk before you run. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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