2021 hopes

[No Decorum]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The Azuma livery is a breath of fresh air, a glorious change from my above critique. 

 

It really suits the train, much nicer than the funereal GWR green which represents the other extreme and is only rescued from qualifying as camouflage by being excessively glossy.

 

John

I’m only posting because I can’t use the agree button three times. It’s seldom I regret buying a model but the GWR 800 is one. I would much rather have an Azuma. Whoever designed the Azuma livery was on coffee; whoever designed the GWR one was a depressive on too many G&Ts. Not Hornby’s fault, of course.

[Rockalaucher101]

On 11/12/2020 at 14:14, adb968008 said:

I have a few Bulleid bits left over, what is it your needing ?

 

I am looking for complete valve gear sets for both sides which I understand are rare as all hell.

The repairs I've made are holding for now but the castings are just turning to dust.

[Pint of Adnams]

On 12/12/2020 at 21:59, Philou said:

@adb968008 Nice video - and at 7 up plus the DVT not over-long for a reasonably sized model railway and could be cut back in length for a smaller layout - c'mon Hornby do some packs!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Never bothered when it was de riguer on Great Anglia London-Norwich services until early this year!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Covkid said:

If you consider Hornby's ahem battles with other manufacturers, I would say it would be unsurprising. 

 

Taking that to a wider extent if you consider the way Horby have reacted in the recent past to announcements from elsewhere maybe a simple guide to whata they have in mind is to see what has already been announced by others and list those things as possibilities for Hornby.

 

That, for example, gives Class 37 reissue/different liveries, Class 92 reissue/different liveries, a 'Manor', a Fell , Consett hoppers, and a cheapo Railroad version of the HAA.  And on recent form anything announced by retailers who produce models but is not yet available but exists somewhere in the Hornby back catalogue so the can claim it as 'theirs' (or which they could quickly get tooled up for a cheapo lower quality version).  Add in a few logical rolling stock upgrades to go with recently upgraded locos or making a bit of revised use of existing tooling and you might just be on the money.

[TomScrut]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

HAA

 

I expect that this will see some releases with some price reduction. It is (IMO) too expensive for what it is at the moment. If they were £15 a pop then £30 a pop for the Cavalex one is a big cost difference if somebody wants 20 of them! It pretty much buys the loco to pull them.

 

6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Class 37 reissue/different liveries, Class 92 reissue/different liveries

 

Conversely, the thing is, and its a bit like the 66, are those who are wanting a AS 37 or 92 going to get excited about a RR 37 or 92? I definitely aren't!

[Dunsignalling]

28 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Taking that to a wider extent if you consider the way Horby have reacted in the recent past to announcements from elsewhere maybe a simple guide to whata they have in mind is to see what has already been announced by others and list those things as possibilities for Hornby.

 

That, for example, gives Class 37 reissue/different liveries, Class 92 reissue/different liveries, a 'Manor', a Fell , Consett hoppers, and a cheapo Railroad version of the HAA.  And on recent form anything announced by retailers who produce models but is not yet available but exists somewhere in the Hornby back catalogue so the can claim it as 'theirs' (or which they could quickly get tooled up for a cheapo lower quality version).  Add in a few logical rolling stock upgrades to go with recently upgraded locos or making a bit of revised use of existing tooling and you might just be on the money.

If Hornby were to pull that kind of stunt too often, it wouldn't do their "market leader" image a whole lot of good. The question would arise as to where assertive/aggressive had ended and "running scared" had begun....

 

John

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Legend]

Different markets though . There are people (myself included) who are quite happy with something dimensionally correct, good decoration but perhaps without all the bells and whistles . So a cheepo HAA in Railroad makes perfect sense to me .  Also I'd say a large hopper EWS/ Freightliner/ GBRf , I dont know the designations , but make one , stick it in Railroad range so folks can run it with their 66s .  What are Bachmann charging £60-£70 for a big DB hopper?  

[TomScrut]

52 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

"market leader" image

 

Is a market leader the one with the biggest share or the one that pushes things forward?

 

I expect in a lot of markets these do not go hand in hand.

[Dunsignalling]

Things I would definitely buy.

 

LMS CK and a retool for the 12-wheel Restaurant Car to bring it to the standard of their current Staniers.

 

Retooled Siphons and SR Gangwayed Luggage van. 

 

Various Southern locos, Q,U,W, H16, G6, Urie S15 are high on my personal list (in no particular order). Retool for rebuilt MN with tender variations for it and other Bullied Pacifics. 

 

Probably too soon for any more SR coaches, but Ironclads or LSWR 56' stock when the time is right. Also, Hornby, please bite the bullet and sort out the Gresleys....

 

John

Edited December 14, 2020 by Dunsignalling
Moved (

[TomScrut]

46 minutes ago, Legend said:

What are Bachmann charging £60-£70 for a big DB hopper?  

 

£50-60 was RRP depending on weathered or not. People are charging what you say for them now as they are thin on the ground it would seem. Which does mean it wasn't too expensive (although too expensive for me).

 

The thing to also bear in mind is that AS are doing the GBRF HYA/IIA and they are about £35 a pop without looking (from unpainted samples) lacking at all vs the Bachmann HKA. Hence why they have an order and Bachmann didn't.

 

I think there is a happy medium. What few big wagons there are sub £25 tend to be too lacking IMO.

 

OTOH Dapol's HIA (which isn't massive) are good at £25 each I think, and the last JNA Falcons and IOAs were just over £20 too IIRC.

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Is a market leader the one with the biggest share or the one that pushes things forward?

 

I expect in a lot of markets these do not go hand in hand.

Or, on past form, trying to prevent others deriving benefit from pushing things forward?

 

John

[The Johnster]

18 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Retooled Siphons and SR Gangwayed Luggage van. 

I would definitely buy retooled Siphons, less sure about a GLV as I’m happy with my Triang/Roxey.  I would also definitely buy a retooled 2721, and any panelled or matchboarded auto trailer!

 

But especially diagram N...

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

I expect that this will see some releases with some price reduction. It is (IMO) too expensive for what it is at the moment. If they were £15 a pop then £30 a pop for the Cavalex one is a big cost difference if somebody wants 20 of them! It pretty much buys the loco to pull them.

 

 

Conversely, the thing is, and its a bit like the 66, are those who are wanting a AS 37 or 92 going to get excited about a RR 37 or 92? I definitely aren't!

I think Hornby tried taking Accurascale on this year with several Class 92’s.

so far, Accurascale and Hornby really exist in separate universes.

The only concern I see is dejavu...

 

Weve seen a new manufacturer rise expoentially serving the modern image market with rapid fire releases before, Hornby later bought them in a firesale. 
I also fear is Heljans UK range ends up swallowed by Bachmann at some juncture.

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by adb968008

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

LMS CK

 

I can't stress enough how much doing this would mean to me.

 

Of course it's bad news for the Airfix ones sitting on my workbench 

[Downer]

Things I would definitely buy.

 

J17, J19, J 20, J 69 (all ex-GE)

The aforementioned Stanier CK.

Gresley BTK and CK (to match the current SK, FK and BCK)

Stanier or Fowler 2-6-2T

Tilbury tank

K2, K4, K1/1 (for a putative Mallaig line layout)

10800

0erlikon, Watford or 501 EMUs

C2X, U1

Beavertail observation car (pre-1959)

 

As I said in an earlier post, I think the J69 is my best hope.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I think Hornby tried taking Accurascale on this year with several Class 92’s.

so far, Accurascale and Hornby really exist in separate universes.

The only concern I see is dejavu...

 

Weve seen a new manufacturer rise expoentially serving the modern image market with rapid fire releases before, Hornby later bought them in a firesale. 
I also fear is Heljans UK range ends up swallowed by Bachmann at some juncture.

 

Yes and a lot of those 92s seem to be sat on shelves! Although I doubt they'll have cost a lot to make.

 

The previous time I believe the firing rate was far more rapid wasn't it? It was whilst I was away from the hobby as a teenager.

 

I thought very much the same although it was said and was denied by Heljan (although what else would they do but deny it) in another thread.

[adb968008]

27 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Yes and a lot of those 92s seem to be sat on shelves! Although I doubt they'll have cost a lot to make.

 

The previous time I believe the firing rate was far more rapid wasn't it? It was whilst I was away from the hobby as a teenager.

 

I thought very much the same although it was said and was denied by Heljan (although what else would they do but deny it) in another thread.

Lima was 3 every 1-2 months.

Trouble with wagons, nice as they are, you will eventually run out of space if buy them in 6’ & 9’s every 2 to 3 months.

 

I had to make a hard choice between Yeoman and ARC (and cleared my Bachmann Yeomans) as to buy both rakes take space... in the end I chose ARC as Dapols Yeomans are around the corner, but they are eating at me...

 

I did chose to divest my tops Cemflos and keep just the pre-tops ones, but a replacement rake seems to have arrived following the little sale last month.

After christmas my next purchases will be 92’s and Biomass.

 

To keep this post vaguely on topic, I don't have much hope for anything new tooled from Hornby in modern image. In 20 years iirc weve really only seen a 67, and headline grabbing classes 390, 395 and Azuma in post privatisation tooling.

 

i’d class mk4’s as historical at this juncture, but equally think a revamp of the old ones would suffice, people would buy LNER mk4’s on an old tooling just as much as they would buy them on new. They could spin the wheel on that old tooling one more time and get away with it, so save 6 figures to invest in something else later. I suspect beyond LNER many will pause for thought once they see the price tag, before going wild replacing older ones (GNER, IC etc), what people say they want, what they actually need and what they do are different, especially when faced with a wide choice of models competing for a smaller slice of the wallet... 

How many times do we see dreamers saying “i need a dozen in 3 liveries”, followed by “they moulded xyz so thats it i’m buying zero” when reality bites.

 

i do however expect a TPE Azuma, they had art work for it last year and is the easiest thing to match an Accurascale threat/compliment.
 

1st world problems.

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by adb968008

[Markwj]

Rails and accurascale have really dragged their feet over confirming the class 89 which is why I expect an announcement from Hornby. Likely Rails got wind of Hornby’s intentions. Or if Hornby don’t announce one we will see the rails one confirmed soon after.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

you will eventually run out of space if buy them in 6’ & 9’s every 2 to 3 months

 

Yes, the EFE NACCO JIAs have missed out on these grounds with me as I'd want at least 6 and my stock at the moment is not particularly manageable despite me building a new layout with a lot more storage.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

To keep this post vaguely on topic, I don't have much hope for anything new tooled from Hornby in modern image. In 20 years iirc weve really only seen a 67, and headline grabbing classes 390, 395 and Azuma in post privatisation tooling.

 

Tooling mods for 802s perhaps. There are 3 operators with them so you'd think they'd be worth doing. As you say they don't seem to do that much in the way of brand new locos etc, although really in the last 20 years what locos has there been? 67, 68, 70, 88? All but one are tooled. 69 isn't finished yet so I aren't including that.

 

Maybe another headline grabber would be the Aventras given they are on Crossrail and around London a lot.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

however expect a TPE Azuma

 

And there you say it yourself. I'd definitely have one, I don't think there is anything they could bring out that would take priority TBH. I base my stock around York, have 2 Azumas and 2 68/Mk5 sets on order so it would be perfect.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

mk4’s

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

How many times do we see dreamers saying “i need a dozen in 3 liveries”, followed by “they moulded xyz so thats it i’m buying zero” when reality bites.

 

Yes which is why I said in my prediction I didn't think they'd do all matching mk4s if they retool. They'd definitely have to do the DVT I think.

 

40 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Rails and accurascale have really dragged their feet over confirming the class 89 which is why I expect an announcement from Hornby.

 

It's an interesting thought to say the least. Could be that the demand simply isn't there? There could well be a reason a RTR one hasn't been done before.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

You wouldn't do an Aventra for the same reason they never did an Electrostar, they are a London and South East centric electric only unit ergo the market is limited. I don't know too much about the many variants of Electrostar but I imagine with a Class 37-nose style interchangeable front end you could cover the three main cab fronts and the two styles of headlights for the centre-gangway front enders, and with further underframe retooling squeeze some Class 172's out of it but even with close to 1000 sets of real life units I'm not seeing the mass appeal.

 

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

Why on Earth do manufacturers insist on duplicating models quite so often?

 

Just fill the gaps with stuff that either hasn't previously been done or the existing model is over 25 years old*.

 

With regard the only BR Blue period here is a list of stuff that has not has yet been produced:

• AC electrics 81, 82, 83, 84.
• DMUs, 100, 103, 104, 109, 112, 114, 115, 116, 118, 119, 120, 123, 124, 126, 129, 201,204,  205, 206, 207, 210, 252/(41).
• AC EMUs, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 315.
• DC EMUs, 405, 410, 411, 415, 419, 421, 422, 423, 432, 438, 442, 445, 455, 501, 502, 503, 504, 506, 507, 508.
• Wagons, Cartic-4, ...............how many to choose from ? 

There are plenty enough Deltic's, class 37's and class 66's that don't need doing for the second or third time.

 

As for steam locomotives, do Stroudly's Terrier and Stanier's Duchess really need yet another dose of doing again. There are all manner of useful things pre-grouping that lasted into the 1950's and could provide all sorts of livery options. Six wheel Parcels stock is big gap over the big four companies.

 

* Most models less than 25 years old aren't all that bad, I grew up with HD/ Wrenn, Triang Hornby and later Lima.

 

I built two of these so someone has missed a trix.

 

Gibbo.

[TomScrut]

8 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

You wouldn't do an Aventra for the same reason they never did an Electrostar, they are a London and South East centric electric only unit ergo the market is limited.

 

The thing is though the Aventras are brand new, maybe they will end up somewhere else.

 

If Bachmann/LTM can do S stock then is London centric really a problem?

 

But I also have no idea why the Electrostar was never done. Yes it's based about London but it's pretty much every way out of London

[The Johnster]

7 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Why on Earth do manufacturers insist on duplicating models quite so often?

Because, in a competitive market, each competitors' marketing department has a tendency to pick the same loco as the competitions' marketing department.  Despite what it looks like to us, they don't insist on duplicating and would rather the competition didn't duplicate their products, but so would the competition...  Sometimes it is not that much of a duplication; the DJM/Hatton's 14xx was in a different league and price range to the reworked Airfix model that Hornby brought out under the Railroad label to compete with it.  OTOH, and for example, there isn't much clear blue water between the Hornby and Bachmann 08s, and I doubt there will be betwenn Hornby and Dapol 5101s either.

 

It does nobody any good and would be better avoided, but how that would be done without the co-operation needed between companies attracting the attention of whatever the Monopolies Commission call themselves nowadays is another matter.  The authorities are, rightly, not enthusiastic about price fixing, cartel agreements, or market manipulation. so it is my view that we will continue to see duplication of models in a competitive market, unfortunately. 

 

Another factor is of  course that it is not just 'us' that buy models, there are collectors as well.  In addition to this, Hornby are the only household name, so for some sections of the market they are the only game in town, so if Hornby don't make it it effectively doesn't exist.  I'm sure many shop owners will confirm that, especially at this time of year, people come in asking about train sets and are shown Bachmann, which may suit their needs better than Hornby but are pricier and an unknown quantity, so the sale goes to Hornby.  There is therefore arguably (not that I'd particularly be in agreement) a case for Hornby to market items that are duplicates of other companies' outputs but are not really competition as that sector of the market is unaware of the duplicate model or, in many cases, the company behind it, and why should they?

[wombatofludham]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I also fear is Heljans UK range ends up swallowed by Bachmann at some juncture.

 

 

 

Why on Earth would that happen?  The current "franchise" probably works well for all.  Bachmann get to flog models which haven't been produced by Heljan for a while, without incurring a six figure plus sum for investment, Heljan get to sell older models which have presumably made their money back on their investment at a cost plus price to another company with a better dealer base, whilst neatly avoiding the impending possibility of B***** export disruption, however unlikely, plus Heljan are busily investing in new models for the UK market at an astonishing rate. so seem to be both committed to and putting money into the UK specific market (which does actually undermine the "B" argument really).  I doubt Heljan would be spending the kind of money they are not just in my pet OO scale 1960s non water boiling traction but O gauge as well if their intention were to hive it all off to Bachmann any time soon.

I think the EFE tie in is a mutually beneficial, quick win-win for both companies with the UK modeller being the ultimate beneficiary, rather than a portentious clanging of the chimes of doom for the future of Heljan.

[Gibbo675]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Because, in a competitive market, each competitors' marketing department has a tendency to pick the same loco as the competitions' marketing department.  Despite what it looks like to us, they don't insist on duplicating and would rather the competition didn't duplicate their products, but so would the competition...  Sometimes it is not that much of a duplication; the DJM/Hatton's 14xx was in a different league and price range to the reworked Airfix model that Hornby brought out under the Railroad label to compete with it.  OTOH, and for example, there isn't much clear blue water between the Hornby and Bachmann 08s, and I doubt there will be betwenn Hornby and Dapol 5101s either.

 

It does nobody any good and would be better avoided, but how that would be done without the co-operation needed between companies attracting the attention of whatever the Monopolies Commission call themselves nowadays is another matter.  The authorities are, rightly, not enthusiastic about price fixing, cartel agreements, or market manipulation. so it is my view that we will continue to see duplication of models in a competitive market, unfortunately. 

 

Another factor is of  course that it is not just 'us' that buy models, there are collectors as well.  In addition to this, Hornby are the only household name, so for some sections of the market they are the only game in town, so if Hornby don't make it it effectively doesn't exist.  I'm sure many shop owners will confirm that, especially at this time of year, people come in asking about train sets and are shown Bachmann, which may suit their needs better than Hornby but are pricier and an unknown quantity, so the sale goes to Hornby.  There is therefore arguably (not that I'd particularly be in agreement) a case for Hornby to market items that are duplicates of other companies' outputs but are not really competition as that sector of the market is unaware of the duplicate model or, in many cases, the company behind it, and why should they?

Hi Johnster,

 

I don't see endless repetition and duplication juxtaposed with competition as being the same thing. If the manufacturers want a competition why don't they have an "Original Ideas" competition, that would be something worth doing.

 

All I can say is that I would have quite happily bought the following, 81, 82, 83, 84, 103, 104, 123, 124, 304, 310, 503, and a Cartic-4, Instead I have ended up building ten AC electrics out of Trix body shells a 103 and a 104 from 110's, a 123 from Mk1 coaches and made up a laser cut kit to build a Cartic-4. I'm currently on with WCML Pullman cars and I'm wondering how to bash a 310 from Mk2's. Unfortunately I have only one pair of hands !!!

 

My money says more fool the marketing departments that keep making the same stuff ad infinitum when there really is so much to choose from that would certainly sell along side all the repeated stuff that has been done twice or three times over to a reasonable standard.

 

I do sometimes wonder if only highly skilled kit and scratch builders model the Southern after the Bullied's were withdrawn though.

 

Gibbo.