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Hornby 2021 - Maunsell dining saloon thirds and composites


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2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

These are the "runners" to go with the Kitchen Firsts previously released.

 

 

Unfortunately in the SR livery modelled these aren't.

 

These Third Class Dining Saloons were built in 1927 to Diagram 2652 and numbered 7864-9 with Hornby now producing 7864 and 7867 in fully lined SR Olive Green.

 

They only lasted with this classification until 1930 when they were reclassed as Open Thirds and subsequently renumbered 1363-8

 

Whilst in the livery and period (1927-30) modelled by Hornby they were paired with Maunsell Kitchen & Dining Firsts, also built in 1927 to Diagram 2651 and numbered 7858-63.

 

Unfortunately these are not those modelled by Hornby.

 

The already released Hornby models are the Kitchen & Dining Firsts built in 1932 to Diagram 2656 and numbered 7864-9, confusingly taking over the numbers released by the renumbering of the Third Class Dining Saloons being discussed! Hornby have to date produced 7865 and 7869 correctly in unlined SR Olive Green given their date of construction (1932).

 

Edited by adrianmc
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Makes me glad I model the BR era! 

 

Mind you, that means I have to navigate the entirely different can of worms opened by the Buffet and Cafeteria Car conversions of early BR years.

 

I've come to suspect that the removal of "Dining" classification from these coaches was probably only for operational convenience. There were very few of them and no spares, so one becoming defective might cause problems. Enabling any open thirds to be used for traffic or dining, as available, would have simplified diagramming no end. 

 

Given how long it took for some BR (SR) carriage sets to be unravelled when that method of operation officially ceased, I'd not be surprised if most of the Open/Dining Thirds carried on being used exactly as before.  

 

John

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23 minutes ago, adrianmc said:

 

Unfortunately in the SR livery modelled these aren't.

 

These Third Class Dining Saloons were built in 1927 to Diagram 2652 and numbered 7864-9 with Hornby now producing 7864 and 7867 in fully lined SR Olive Green.

 

They only lasted with this classification until 1930 when they were reclassed as Open Thirds and subsequently renumbered 1363-8

 

Whilst in the livery and period (1927-30) modelled by Hornby they were paired with Maunsell Kitchen & Dining Firsts, also built in 1927 to Diagram 2651 and numbered 7858-63.

 

Unfortunately these are not those modelled by Hornby.

 

The already released Hornby models are the Kitchen & Dining Firsts built in 1932 to Diagram 2656 and numbered 7864-9, confusingly taking over the numbers released by the renumbering of the Third Class Dining Saloons being discussed! Hornby have to date produced 7865 and 7869 correctly in unlined SR Olive Green given their date of construction (1932).

 

 

Ah, if that's the case perhaps I'll hold off ordering, my layout is loosely -1937-46 depending on my mood

 

Perhaps Hornby are planning an earlier dining First to go with them next year?

 

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44 minutes ago, adrianmc said:

 

Unfortunately in the SR livery modelled these aren't.

 

These Third Class Dining Saloons were built in 1927 to Diagram 2652 and numbered 7864-9 with Hornby now producing 7864 and 7867 in fully lined SR Olive Green.

 

They only lasted with this classification until 1930 when they were reclassed as Open Thirds and subsequently renumbered 1363-8

 

Whilst in the livery and period (1927-30) modelled by Hornby they were paired with Maunsell Kitchen & Dining Firsts, also built in 1927 to Diagram 2651 and numbered 7858-63.

 

Unfortunately these are not those modelled by Hornby.

 

The already released Hornby models are the Kitchen & Dining Firsts built in 1932 to Diagram 2656 and numbered 7864-9, confusingly taking over the numbers released by the renumbering of the Third Class Dining Saloons being discussed! Hornby have to date produced 7865 and 7869 correctly in unlined SR Olive Green given their date of construction (1932).

 

AIUI, Hornby have made Kitchen Firsts to two different diagrams, though neither may be wholly appropriate or (yet) offered in the livery variant to match the SR Dining saloon. 

 

The releases schedules of the RKs seemed a bit odd from the get-go, and Covid disruption won't have inserted any extra logic.....

 

John

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28 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

Perhaps Hornby are planning an earlier dining First to go with them next year?

 

 

The early Kitchen Dining Firsts completed in 1927 (Diag 2651) differed really in only one major aspect from those produced by Hornby (Diag 2656). The original coaches to diagram 2651 didn't have a transverse vestibule with external doors at the Dining Saloon end - something that later Kitchen Diners were so equipped. 

 

So for Hornby to produce a model of one of these early ones - there were only six - then tooling for the different sides would have to be produced.

 

Any easier option - but only if modelling post 1932 - Hornby could release an unlined SR Olive Green version of this new Third Class Dining Saloon / Open Third and number it in the range 1363-8 to make a suitable pairing with one of their existing 1932 Kitchen Dining Firsts in unlined SR Olive Green?

 

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

AIUI, Hornby have made Kitchen Firsts to two different diagrams, though neither may be wholly appropriate or (yet) offered in the livery variant to match the SR Dining saloon. 

 

 

Yes correct - Hornby as far as I'm aware have produced Kitchen Dining Firsts to two diagrams - Diag 2656 and Diag 2651. 

 

One of these - Diag 2651 - is on the face of it the one required for the pairing with this new Third Class Dining Saloon - but unfortunately it is not!

 

The Southern Railway produced several batches of Kitchen Dining Firsts to this diagram but they were not all the same when originally built - the diagram being amended to reflect the changes as each batch and subsequent modifications occurred! The batches were:

 

4x Diag 2651 - Nos 7858-63 - Eastleigh 05/27

4x Diag 2651 - Nos 7939-42 - Eastleigh 07-12/29

16x Diag 2651 - Nos 7943-58 - Eastleigh 05-09/30

 

The main differences were with the first batch. As built these lacked the already mentioned transverse vestibule with external doors at the Dining Saloon end and when compared to the other two batches had a smaller window in the kitchen adjacent to the double doors. Between 1935 and 1939 these coaches from the first batch were altered in that the transverse vestibules were added to match the others. However the smaller kitchen window remained.

 

Hornby's model is of this post 1935-39 modified first batch Diag 2651 with the added vestibule but retaining the smaller window.

 

Due to this smaller window - which wouldn't be correct for the 2nd/3rd batches - the number of the released Hornby BR (S) coach was changed from S7946S (3rd batch) to S7861S (modified 1st batch).

 

It is because of this combination of added vestibule and small kitchen window that the existing Hornby coach tooling cannot accurately represent a batch 1 Diag 2651 Kitchen Dining First as built thus denying us the opportunity of having a fully lined SR Olive Green 1927 Kitchen First/Dining Saloon Third pair.

 

Here's hoping!

 

PS Diag 2656 is virtually identical to Diag 2651 batches 2 and 3 (vestibule and large kitchen window) with the main changes reflecting internal kitchen arrangements and external stove vents. 

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7 minutes ago, adrianmc said:

 

Yes correct - Hornby as far as I'm aware have produced Kitchen Dining Firsts to two diagrams - Diag 2656 and Diag 2651. 

 

One of these - Diag 2651 - is on the face of it the one required for the pairing with this new Third Class Dining Saloon - but unfortunately it is not!

 

The Southern Railway produced several batches of Kitchen Dining Firsts to this diagram but they were not all the same when originally built - the diagram being amended to reflect the changes as each batch and subsequent modifications occurred! The batches were:

 

4x Diag 2651 - Nos 7858-63 - Eastleigh 05/27

4x Diag 2651 - Nos 7939-42 - Eastleigh 07-12/29

16x Diag 2651 - Nos 7943-58 - Eastleigh 05-09/30

 

The main differences were with the first batch. As built these lacked the already mentioned transverse vestibule with external doors at the Dining Saloon end and when compared to the other two batches had a smaller window in the kitchen adjacent to the double doors. Between 1935 and 1939 these coaches from the first batch were altered in that the transverse vestibules were added to match the others. However the smaller kitchen window remained.

 

Hornby's model is of this post 1935-39 modified first batch Diag 2651 with the added vestibule but retaining the smaller window.

 

Due to this smaller window - which wouldn't be correct for the 2nd/3rd batches - the number of the released Hornby BR (S) coach was changed from S7946S (3rd batch) to S7861S (modified 1st batch).

 

It is because of this combination of added vestibule and small kitchen window that the existing Hornby coach tooling cannot accurately represent a batch 1 Diag 2651 Kitchen Dining First as built thus denying us the opportunity of having a fully lined SR Olive Green 1927 Kitchen First/Dining Saloon Third pair.

 

Here's hoping!

 

PS Diag 2656 is virtually identical to Diag 2651 batches 2 and 3 (vestibule and large kitchen window) with the main changes reflecting internal kitchen arrangements and external stove vents. 

So, to fit with the rest of what they do, might it be better for Hornby to finish the SR livery Dining Third as an Open Third with a 13xx number?

 

John 

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8 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Which begs the question why they've tooled this one up unless they plan to make the paired carriage in due course...

By your period, the most accurate approach would be remove the Restaurant markings and renumber, as happened to the prototypes c1930.

 

Chances are they were still used for dining though no longer branded as such and the prototype photo above shows plain sides anyway

 

Mind you, weren't Restaurant cars removed from most services during WW2?

 

John

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3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

So, to fit with the rest of what they do, might it be better for Hornby to finish the SR livery Dining Third as an Open Third with a 13xx number?

 

John 

 

Yes agreed - and a suggestion I made earlier in the thread.

 

However we are in mid 1930s territory here with unlined SR Olive Green.

 

For those of us interested in pre 1930, already with existing prototypical sets of fully lined Hornby Maunsells, a matching kitchen/dining set would be great.

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5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

By your period, the most accurate approach would be remove the Restaurant markings and renumber, as happened to the prototypes c1930.

 

Chances are they were still used for dining though no longer branded as such and the prototype photo above shows plain sides anyway

 

Mind you, weren't Restaurant cars removed from most services during WW2?

 

John

Sometimes it goes pre war or just post ;)

 

I've already got my kitchen first paired up with a lined open third so I either run them with the unlined 'Dunkirk' set with the lined open 3rd not matching or in a rake of lined olive carriages with the kitchen first not matching :laugh: 

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8 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Sometimes it goes pre war or just post ;)

 

I've already got my kitchen first paired up with a lined open third so I either run them with the unlined 'Dunkirk' set with the lined open 3rd not matching or in a rake of lined olive carriages with the kitchen first not matching :laugh: 

By even the mid-thirties there'd be a mixture of lined and unlined in most trains anyway, with the balance moving increasingly in favour of the latter as early coaches came due for overhaul. Then, from 1938, you'd get some in a new colour altogether......

 

Post-war, I'd think lined Maunsells would be getting very thin on the ground.

 

John

 

 

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2 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

Perhaps Hornby are planning an earlier dining First to go with them next year?

 

 

28 minutes ago, adrianmc said:

 

It is because of this combination of added vestibule and small kitchen window that the existing Hornby coach tooling cannot accurately represent a batch 1 Diag 2651 Kitchen Dining First as built thus denying us the opportunity of having a fully lined SR Olive Green 1927 Kitchen First/Dining Saloon Third pair.

 

Here's hoping!

 

23 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Which begs the question why they've tooled this one up unless they plan to make the paired carriage in due course...

 

 

13 minutes ago, adrianmc said:

 

For those of us interested in pre 1930, already with existing prototypical sets of fully lined Hornby Maunsells, a matching kitchen/dining set would be great.

 

Very much agree with the insight of those wise ones above!

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While it's good to see a two car dining set available rtr for probably the first time, as I've bought the earlier open third to go with my restaurant car, I won't be buying one. Shame though.

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51 minutes ago, rovex said:

While it's good to see a two car dining set available rtr for probably the first time, as I've bought the earlier open third to go with my restaurant car, I won't be buying one. Shame though.

 

You could always obtain one of Hornbys new offerings and relegate the open 3rd to be a bog standard open 3rd you know.

 

Open carriages were not solely for eating meals in....

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55 minutes ago, rovex said:

While it's good to see a two car dining set available rtr for probably the first time, as I've bought the earlier open third to go with my restaurant car, I won't be buying one. Shame though.

 

Yes that is another way to go for the post 1932 scene - instead of a renumbered/liveried Dining Third there is the prototypical option of coupling a 1930 Diag 2005 Open Saloon 3rd Class to the kitchen end of a Kitchen Dining First. Hornby have produced at least two examples in fully lined SR Olive Green - 1400 (R4537) and 1375 (R4833).

 

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8 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You could always obtain one of Hornbys new offerings and relegate the open 3rd to be a bog standard open 3rd you know.

 

Open carriages were not solely for eating meals in....

And the low-window Maunsell opens were very commonly used as strengtheners at the front of expresses in summer. Sometimes two at a time.

 

John

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6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

And the low-window Maunsell opens were very commonly used as strengtheners at the front of expresses in summer. Sometimes two at a time.

John

There is some good info available on that great  Coach info Group site (forgotten the chap's name) about the exact CWT pairings (individual coach numbers provided) of Dining vehicles circa 1958 and 1961 IIRC?

You knew that though I am sure John .

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I used to think that only the first batch of Diag 2651 RFs had the small kitchen window but I now believe that all three batches of Diag 2651 RFs had it.  And the wider window only featured on Diags  2650, 2655 & 2656.

 

Chris KT 

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14 minutes ago, chris45lsw said:

I used to think that only the first batch of Diag 2651 RFs had the small kitchen window but I now believe that all three batches of Diag 2651 RFs had it.  And the wider window only featured on Diags  2650, 2655 & 2656.

 

Chris KT 

 

According to Mike King's book An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches only Kitchen Dining Firsts numbered 7858 to 7863 had the small kitchen window - these are the six coaches constructed in 1927 in the first batch of Diag 2651 examples (these are also the batch without the transverse vestibule).

 

According to Mike's drawings in the book all the other similar coaches built to Diagrams 2650, 2651 (batches 2 & 3), 2655 and 2656 had the larger windows.

 

However there aren't any pictures in the book of a Diag 2651 2nd/3rd batch coach showing the relevant side to check the above - the only picture of a Kitchen Dining First to these diagrams showing the kitchen windows is of No 7866 which is a Diag 2656 (large window).

 

 

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A welcome addition to the Hornby range of Maunsell coaches but ... there were only six of them.

Other types were more numerous; for example the 1935 flush window stock (BCK, TK, BSK and TO varieties)  and therefore more useful.

 

Glenn

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3 minutes ago, mattingleycustom said:

A welcome addition to the Hornby range of Maunsell coaches but ... there were only six of them.

Other types were more numerous; for example the 1935 flush window stock (BCK, TK, BSK and TO varieties)  and therefore more useful.

 

Glenn

But they couldn't do those in the fully lined Maunsell olive that a lot of people who bought previous coaches will want.

 

I also suspect (hope) that Hornby may have created the moulds with alternative inserts to allow them to produce the fairly similar, and more numerous, Diagram 2007 TO later.

 

John

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