Slopes is this to steep?

[AdeMoore]

Looking like rising 93mm in 1500mm

i don’t know how you work out a slope as in 1 in 15 or whatever.  But Treggyman here Linky mentions 20mm in 300mm for a little Ruston with a few on. Mine will likely be a Westcountry with Max x 4 MK1s coaches on. This slope is a bit less at 20mm in 400mm.

 

Any help gratefully received.

Cheers

Ade

[njee20]

20 in 400mm is 1:20 or 5%. 
 

It’s steeper than I’d build, but it’s your layout. Test with your chosen stock to verify it’ll work. 

[Harlequin]

Divide 1500 by 93. The answer is 16.13. That’s 1 in 16 approximately. I.e. for every 16.13 units forward the track rises 1 unit (inches, millimetres, yards, whatever). That’s very steep. Could be a problem.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Harlequin

[Dungrange]

As @Harlequin says, your slope is 1 in the horizontal distance divided by the vertical distance (making sure you use the same units).  I'd agree that 1:16 is a pretty steep gradient and is likely to cause problems with anything other than very short trains.  

 

It's also worth pointing out that if you are trying to raise the track 93 mm in just 1.5 metres, then it's your average gradient that will be 1:16.  You will need transitions at the top and bottom of your slope from flat to gradient and back to flat again, which inevitable means that your maximum gradient will be steeper than 1:16.  How much steeper will depend on how smooth your transition curves, but the smoother the transitions, the steeper the maximum gradient will be.  I suspect that you'll probably end up with a maximum gradient of around 1:13, which is much steeper than a generally recommended maximum of about 1:30.

 

If you do decide you want a gradient that steep, then make sure you test the stock that you intend to run on the gradient first.  It's your layout, but personally, I'd try to avoid gradients as far as possible, unless you can achieve something relatively flat like 1:50.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, AdeMoore said:

Slopes is this to steep?

 

A good rule of thumb here .... if you have to ask, then it probably is!

 

Sod's law applies.

[DCB]

1 in 16 is too steep for your requirements unless you are into Hornby Dublo 2 rail, an old "Barnstaple" will romp up a 1 in 15 with four late production  Hornby Dublo coaches with compensated bogies.  Many Diesels will also climb 1 in 15, my ruling grade in the garden is 1 in 14 and Lima class 37s will haul 6 X Mk2 coaches on a dry day.  However you need a very long transition from level to the gradient.  Locos like the Hornby T9 need about 150mm raise the leading wheel 2mm, which is all it will lift before hitting the running plate and lifting the leading driving wheels off the track  You need 10mm rise for 1 in 16 so I make that 750mm 30" of transition, one end   A current Hornby BoB will manage about 4 Hornby Mk1s up a 1 in 36, A 1960s one will haul 12 on steel track, and a Wrenn one more than 12. So basically I'm saying it's a non starter with no work around.  I would say 1 in 36 is the absolute limit for modern 21st century RTR steam on a branch line and 1in 100 which is about as level as most peoples level baseboards actually are the limit for mainline trains with modern RTR steam.

I just use 1 in 36 and use big heavy bankers 

1 in 16 is the stuff of short wheelbase locos and 4 wheel wagons,  full size and model, maybe OK for a coaling stage.  The steepest adhesion worked gradient in the UK was reckoned to be Hopton Incline on the Cromford and High Peak, 1 in 16.    It was worked by LNWR 2-4-0 tank locos, modus operandi was charge the gradient flat out.  It worked, then some genius decided to use more powerful locos, these were small wheeled outside cylinder NLR 0-6-0 tanks.

Someone turned one over approaching the bank at 60 MPH.  They then slapped a 40 MPH limit on the curve and the more powerful locos had to have their loads reduced to that of the 2-4-0s to be able to get trains up. A major step sideways.

Incidentally gradient can be measured in height rise in distance travelled, or height rise in Horizontal distance travelled  very little difference in normal usage but for first 1 in 1 is 45degrees and the latter 90 degrees

[TonyMay]

Don't forget that slopes on a corner are worse than slopes on a straight because there's more wheel-chafing.  That slope is definitely on a corner.

[Dave-5-5-7]

I'm running a 1:20 and my bachman 20, Hornby 56 etc will happy take 24 MGR hoppers up it without struggling. Fit a mock gradient and test it. Every loco is different. My bacham 08, 20 and 47s handle the 24 hoppers with ease, my bachman 37 struggles

 

[AdeMoore]

8 hours ago, Dungrange said:

As @Harlequin says, your slope is 1 in the horizontal distance divided by the vertical distance (making sure you use the same units).  I'd agree that 1:16 is a pretty steep gradient and is likely to cause problems with anything other than very short trains.  

 

It's also worth pointing out that if you are trying to raise the track 93 mm in just 1.5 metres, then it's your average gradient that will be 1:16.  You will need transitions at the top and bottom of your slope from flat to gradient and back to flat again, which inevitable means that your maximum gradient will be steeper than 1:16.  How much steeper will depend on how smooth your transition curves, but the smoother the transitions, the steeper the maximum gradient will be.  I suspect that you'll probably end up with a maximum gradient of around 1:13, which is much steeper than a generally recommended maximum of about 1:30.

 

If you do decide you want a gradient that steep, then make sure you test the stock that you intend to run on the gradient first.  It's your layout, but personally, I'd try to avoid gradients as far as possible, unless you can achieve something relatively flat like 1:50.

Thanks all for your fine responses.

Dunrange the measurement was after the transition at the bottom so literally the length of wood you see on edge in the photo.

i was watching Charlie Bishop on Chadwick on YouTube and his slope looked similar but he said his was 1 in 50 also Paul Apps Sadling Junction latest video his looked steeper than mine! 
Like many have said best to mock it up and try it.

im trying to put a station above a fiddle yard may have to come up with something else.
cheers as all very helpful.

 

[Harlequin]

Hi Ade,

Gradients are usually tricky in small spaces.

If you have a station above your fiddle yard, how will you fiddle? (If you see what I mean.) And will there be enough clearance for things that need to hang below the station like point motors and wires?

If it's more a storage yard than a fiddle yard, where you just drive whole trains in and out, then you need to know what's in there and where it is so you then get into occupancy detection and maybe cameras.

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[rab]

You mention you're running a Westcountry.

A 1 in 16 gradient would probably give

prototypical running; they had a reputation

for slipping.

[Phil Himsworth]

I've just built an incline that climbs 70mm in 2100mm, so 3.3%, including a slightly larger than 3rd radius 110 degree bend; I wasn't sure whether it would work with all my trains but was pleasantly surprised when they all did, generally three coaches or a similar length of wagons. A couple of locos are quite close to their limit with this; during testing if the gradient wasn't even all the way up they would struggle at the steeper bits.

 

I've put powerbase plates under the track just in case of issues in the future.

 

I mocked it up by holding the track up on cardboard formers every 21cm; I definitely recommend doing this before committing to anything.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Phil Himsworth
typo

[RobinofLoxley]

If covering the fiddle yard is the reason for the gradients is it possible to reduce the gradient by lowering the fiddle yard - spreads the climbing out over more track. 

[RobinofLoxley]

A question of my own- what issues are there with points on gradients -talking 2% or less here

[AdeMoore]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Ade,

Gradients are usually tricky in small spaces.

If you have a station above your fiddle yard, how will you fiddle? (If you see what I mean.) And will there be enough clearance for things that need to hang below the station like point motors and wires?

If it's more a storage yard than a fiddle yard, where you just drive whole trains in and out, then you need to know what's in there and where it is so you then get into occupancy detection and maybe cameras.

 

Thanks Phil it is a storage yard your quite right. It won’t be big but I take what you say about cameras etc. On board.

I arrived at 113mm to get my hand in if I needed, and the rear wouldn’t be blocked so access from both sides of the yard. I guess it could be less?
I could drop the storage yard down a bit but I have a viaduct coming across on that level, The Curved Taw one based on Barnstaple it couldn’t drop really wouldn’t look right.

Cheers all for the replies.

Ade

[RobinofLoxley]

2 hours ago, AdeMoore said:

Thanks Phil it is a storage yard your quite right. It won’t be big but I take what you say about cameras etc. On board.

I arrived at 113mm to get my hand in if I needed, and the rear wouldn’t be blocked so access from both sides of the yard. I guess it could be less?
I could drop the storage yard down a bit but I have a viaduct coming across on that level, The Curved Taw one based on Barnstaple it couldn’t drop really wouldn’t look right.

Cheers all for the replies.

Ade

I think it would be tight at 113 mm if you had to reach over any stock to get to stuff behind. Your wrist would send it all flying

[ITG]

2 hours ago, AdeMoore said:

it is a storage yard your quite right. It won’t be big but I take what you say about cameras etc.

I bought a brand new lorry reversing camera set (including camera with lights, all leads and screen) for about £16 off ebay. All I had to add was a 12v dc vehicle cigarette lighter unit to plug into mains socket. Works perfectly, and the camera so small as to be easy to hang under the upper board. Only slight disadvantage of this is you do get the yellow lines typical of a reversing camera screen, but it doesn’t bother me at all.

[AY Mod]

16 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

A good rule of thumb here .... if you have to ask, then it probably is!

 

Exactly my thought before even opening the topic. 

[boxbrownie]

8 hours ago, rab said:

You mention you're running a Westcountry.

A 1 in 16 gradient would probably give

prototypical running; they had a reputation

for slipping.

Usually at Paddington 

[AdeMoore]

Thanks for the like Phil,

 When Andy Y chimes in with a one liner there’s not much to say, but it did make me smile 
Umm “it probably is” will be the headline folk will take from this topic! 
Work in progress and the advice has been great so thanks all.

cheers

Ade..

[rab]

15 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Usually at Paddington 

A Westcountry at Paddington???

[Michael Hodgson]

38 minutes ago, rab said:

A Westcountry at Paddington???

St. George for England

St. Pancras for Scotland

Paddington for the West Country.

[gordon s]

....and....

 

Harwich for the Continent

Frinton for the Incontinent....

 

That takes me back..

 

[Lowcliff]

20 hours ago, ITG said:

I bought a brand new lorry reversing camera set (including camera with lights, all leads and screen) for about £16 off ebay. All I had to add was a 12v dc vehicle cigarette lighter unit to plug into mains socket. Works perfectly, and the camera so small as to be easy to hang under the upper board. Only slight disadvantage of this is you do get the yellow lines typical of a reversing camera screen, but it doesn’t bother me at all.

The yellow lines can be removed by cutting one of the cables or is it joining a couple of cables. if you have a look on eBay at reversing cameras one will show you how to remove the lines

[Lowcliff]

13 minutes ago, Lowcliff said:

The yellow lines can be removed by cutting one of the cables or is it joining a couple of cables. if you have a look on eBay at reversing cameras one will show you how to remove the lines

If wiring loom has got a green wire which is looped this is the one to remove the parking lines