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I thought that my fictional Yorkshire layout would be LMS in colours and standards. Now I just learned that LNER might be there as well. A while back someone suggested I look at the Settle & Carlyle line as inspiration.

 

I like the LMS look, but maybe I should reconsider? The landscape I want to model will be grass, stonewalls, hedges, and plenty of trees in the background. I draw much of my inspiration from the original "All creatures great and small" TV-series.

 

With that in mind, what would be most likely; LMS or LNER?

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It depends where you want to place it - West Yorkshire was fairly LMS but had LNER routes as well, East and North Yorkshire LNER whilst South was quite a mix and included the Great Central routes.

 

But they all ran routes through it to get from North to South.

 

Settle & Carlisle was the Midland route north, so very much LMS in later years, but All Creatures Great & Small - that's North Yorkshire and you're moving into LNER territory.

Edited by woodenhead
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The North Yorkshire Moors is, as woodenhead says, very much and exclusively LNER ex-NER country, and the locos and stock reflected this. I’m assuming that the Herriot connection means 1950s early BR period.  Not much suitable ex NER stuff if you are going to be relying on RTR, sadly, but there are some kits I think. 
 

Yorkshire is big and has a variety of distinct geographical areas.  You have a choice of other railways in other parts of the county; GNR, LNWR, Midland, L&Y, and it doesn’t get more Yorkshire than the Hull & Barnsley.  Trooble at t’mill, lad, ee ba goom. 
 

For RTR, the ex-Midland LMS lines are probably best served, that is Sheffield- Leeds-Skipton-S&C, but this is an area that looks significantly different to the Moors. 

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3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

For RTR, the ex-Midland LMS lines are probably best served, that is Sheffield- Leeds-Skipton-S&C, but this is an area that looks significantly different to the Moors. 

Unless your thing is Pacifics, Hornby do a good job when it comes to RTR pacifics of an LNE persuasion, but thats a long way from a twee North Yorks Herriott branchline.

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6 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The North Yorkshire Moors is, as woodenhead says, very much and exclusively LNER ex-NER country, and the locos and stock reflected this. I’m assuming that the Herriot connection means 1950s early BR period.  Not much suitable ex NER stuff if you are going to be relying on RTR, sadly, but there are some kits I think. 
 

Yorkshire is big and has a variety of distinct geographical areas.  You have a choice of other railways in other parts of the county; GNR, LNWR, Midland, L&Y, and it doesn’t get more Yorkshire than the Hull & Barnsley.  Trooble at t’mill, lad, ee ba goom. 
 

For RTR, the ex-Midland LMS lines are probably best served, that is Sheffield- Leeds-Skipton-S&C, but this is an area that looks significantly different to the Moors. 

Actually, the early part of the series is pre WW2, and then they put the paper crosses on the windows to prevent them from breaking, and then they get drafted for service. I got the whole series in a DVD box.

 

I'll look into the Sheffield-Leeds-Skipton area, and see what it looks like. 

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One thing with "All Creatures Great and Small", the newer series certainly (and I think the older series too?) had the railway scenes filmed on the KWVR, so firmly Midland... but just to complicate things, the Worth Valley also had a Great Northern (later LNER) line running in it too at the northern end :)

 

In the immediate area to here, near Keighley, which railway company you go for would rather dictate what kind of layout you want to build with track interacting with the scenery; generally speaking the Midland route (Airedale-Skipton-Settle-Carlisle) sticks to the bottom of the valley of the Aire, low down.  By contrast the Keighley-Queensbury-Halifax/Bradford route of the Great Northern, coming in later and struggling to get around all the other railway building, took a slightly mad route which needed loads of expensive embankments, cuttings, tunnels, and viaducts, most of which are still in place.  More dramatic than the Midland route, certainly, but less exciting in terms of variety of trains.

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Hang on a sec, the Herriot books are set in the Yorkshire Dales, about 30 miles from the eastern edge of the Moors and very much Settle & Carlisle Midland Railway territory, though the GN turned up at Keighley and there was through traffic from the L & Y at Skipton  Pretty much anything you might need to model the locos and stock that this route featured from about 1930 to the present time and a good bit from before that as well is availble RTR in 4mm scale.  
 

It’s a well trodden path and there are plenty of good layouts to inspire you. 
 

I forgot to mention the Great Central, another LNER constituent, which is a major player in South Yorkshire. 

Edited by The Johnster
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<Puts on professional Yorkshireman’s hat> Now then, tha’ should all knaa that Herriot’s original house & practice (well, Alf Wight’s practice to be right) was in Thirsk (“Darrowby”) which lies in the Vale of Mowbray almost equidistant between t’Yorkshire Dales & North York Moors national parks (which of course hadn’t been designated as such in the pre-war period of the early books).
 

Alf Wight later moved to Thirlby, which is by Sutton Bank on the edge of the NY Moors.

 

The nearest station to Herriot’s first house was and is Thirsk on the East Coast mainline, so technically a James Herriot model railway could be all LNER pacifics....(!)

 

However, to give an answer in the spirit of the OP, all the branch lines in the area covered by Herriot’s practice and his writings (the vale itself, the western side of the North York moors, and the eastern side of the northern Yorkshire Dales) were ex-North Eastern Railway LNER.  Apart from the Wensleydale branch’s end-on connection with the Midland at Hawes in Upper Wensleydale theer’s naa LMS in t’Herriot country! (Much less any H&BR, L&YR, GCR or GNR!!) 

 

I didn’t know that the recent C5 remake of ACG&S had filmed on the KWVR. I can see why they did it, but that countryside & railway architecture is not right for Herriot country. I also believe that C5’s “Darrowby” is Grassington in Wharfedale - served by the MR/LMS in reality to be sure, but too far south to be in Herriot country. 
 

The BBC series from the seventies was filmed largely in lower Wensleydale and Swaledale, with bits in Harrogate and on the western NY Moors, which is spot on.

 

Aye up!

 

Richard T

 

 

Edited by RichardT
Adding extra curmudgeonliness
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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Hang on a sec, the Herriot books are set in the Yorkshire Dales, about 30 miles from the eastern edge of the Moors and very much Settle & Carlisle Midland Railway territory, though the GN turned up at Keighley and there was through traffic from the L & Y at Skipton  Pretty much anything you might need to model the locos and stock that this route featured from about 1930 to the present time and a good bit from before that as well is available RTR in 4mm scale.  
 

It’s a well trodden path and there are plenty of good layouts to inspire you. 
 

I forgot to mention the Great Central, another LNER constituent, which is a major player in South Yorkshire. 

As RichardT has so eloquently explained, Thirsk, where James Herriot (Alf Wight) lived and worked, was right on the eastern edge of the North York Moors, less than five miles away.  This was an area exclusively served by the North Eastern Railway.  It was over 42 miles to the Midland and its Settle and Carlisle line at Hawes, but around 38 miles to Leeds, where you could find the Midland, London & North Western and the Great Northern,  40 miles to the Lancashire & Yorkshire at Methley, 44 miles to the Hull and Barnsley  at Drax and 46 miles to the Great Central at Ackworth. (All distances approximate) It's a pity that the television companies took some easy ways out in their location selections, tending towards the Dales, whereas the original 1975 film featured more appropriate locations such as Whitby, Malton and Pickering

As for timescale, Wight graduated in December 1939, and arrived in Thirsk in July 1940, after a short spell in Sunderland - hardly thirties, and definitely not pre-war! As far as I can recall the RAF careers of the vets, which were brief, are ignored in the various programmes, so I would suggest the main setting is post-war, although Alf did actually get married in 1941.

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3 hours ago, Reptilian Feline said:

I thought that my fictional Yorkshire layout would be LMS in colours and standards. Now I just learned that LNER might be there as well. A while back someone suggested I look at the Settle & Carlyle line as inspiration.

 

I like the LMS look, but maybe I should reconsider? The landscape I want to model will be grass, stonewalls, hedges, and plenty of trees in the background. I draw much of my inspiration from the original "All creatures great and small" TV-series.

 

With that in mind, what would be most likely; LMS or LNER?

 

In real life , James Herriott (a pseudonym) was a vet at Thirsk , which is on the East Coast Main Line, and the A1 - LNER territory . (I recall in the books that he makes reference to picking up Tristan at the A1 outside the town on one occasion) 

 

From Northallerton (the next town on the ECML) an NER line (later LNER) wound its way through the Dales to make an end on junction with the MR at Hawes - that line led back to the Settle & Carlisle at Hawes Junction, later renamed Garsdale. This survives in large part as the  Wensleydale Railway  , military traffic to Redmire having kept it in existance

 

To the north, the ex NER Stainmore route made it to Kirkby Stephen (where the station was nearer the town than the surviving station on the Settle & Carlisle) . There it split - one arm went to Tebay on the West Coast Main Line, and the other ran up to the WCML just south of Penrith via Appleby , with trains running into Penrith. 

 

To the north again , the pioneer Newcastle & Carlisle Railway was merged into the NER quite early.

 

The MR and NER approached Ilkley from two different directions and had a joint station there. And at Leeds , the MR's Leeds Wellington and the NER's Leeds City formed a single complex, and is the basis of today's Leeds City station.

 

So clearly the MR and NER co-operated in Yorkshire, and some kind of joint line or connection in the Dales, set in the 1930s under joint LMS/LNER control is entirely plausible for the area. I think such a scenario might suit you

 

Just off the top of my head - the NER & MR didn't connect at Appleby , the connection off the S&C down to Warcop quarry is wartime or later. But you could rearrange history by assuming that they did and reimagine Appleby as an important traffic junction between the NER Stainmore Route and the MR Settle & Carlisle . (That would probably have been much more convenient in terms of transport connections than what actually happened - two lines crossing but not connecting)

 

The books are actually set in the late 30s /early 40s , so James Herriot clearly backdated events a couple of years

 

 

Edited by Ravenser
Corrected to Thirsk from Northallerton - whoops
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40 minutes ago, RichardT said:

I also believe that C5’s “Darrowby” is Grassington in Wharfedale - served by the MR/LMS in reality to be sure, but too far south to be in Herriot country. 

 

Aye up!

 

Richard T

 

 

 

Yes, the production company have used Grassington as Darrowby.

 

 

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Go LMS if you want an easier time.

 

Far more suitable stock readily available. Just off the top of my head and restricted to locomotives found in Yorkshire from about 1920 to 1950 and avoiding the large tender locomotives.

 

L&YR Radial Tank 2-4-2T

L&YR Pug 0-4-0ST (Dock tank, but they did move about a lot)

LNWR Coal Tank 0-6-2T

LNWR Super D 0-8-0

MR 1F 0-6-0T

MR1P 0-4-4T

MR 3F 0-6-0

MR 4F 0-6-0

MR 4P 4-4-0

LMS Jinty 3F 0-6-0T

LMS 4F 0-6-0

LMS Ivatt 2-6-2T

LMS 4P 2-6-4T (Fowler/Stanier/Fairbairn)

LMS 2P 4-4-0

LMS Crab 2-6-0

LMS Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0

LMS Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0

 

Modelling the LNER you are struggling with the smaller locomotives, certainly when it comes to quaint engines running through countryside. Loads of big Pacifics though.

 

NER J72 0-6-0T

LNER J50 0-6-0T

LNER J39 0-6-0

LNER K1 2-6-0

LNER K3 2-6-0

LNER V1/V3 2-6-2T

NER Q6 0-8-0

NER J26/J27 0-6-0 (Not yet released)

NER G5 0-4-4T (Not yet released)

 

 

Maybe mix and match. LNER locomotives would be found in LMS territory especially after nationalisation.

 

 

Jason

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4 hours ago, Ben B said:

One thing with "All Creatures Great and Small", the newer series certainly (and I think the older series too?) had the railway scenes filmed on the KWVR, so firmly Midland... but just to complicate things, the Worth Valley also had a Great Northern (later LNER) line running in it too at the northern end :)

 

If I recall correctly, the first episode of the original (BBC) series has Herriot walking out of Leyburn station (back when it was a BR goods only route), then climbing onto a bus to Richmond, where he alights, before walking around a corner to find himself in the main square at Askrigg (standing in as Darrowby).  Those venues used in that series would have been LNER territory.

 

The recent Channel 5 series was largely filmed in Wharfedale, which was LMS territory.

 

Adrian

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5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

So clearly the MR and NER co-operated in Yorkshire,

Yes, the Midland and NER were historically allies, or at least friendly neutrals, both originating in George Hudson-controlled companies which involved similar networks of regional elites.

 

The 1921 Railways Act rammed companies together based on crude geography, not on any previous affinity between them: the MR & LNWR in particular were at daggers drawn for decades.  If you wanted to model a joint LNER/LMS branch line in Herriot country then depicting it as ex-MR/NER would be the way to go - avoid any hint of LNWR or L&YR. (Oh, and avoid J72s - they were built for yard shunting, station pilot work and trip workings, not for branch line use, and never on local passenger trains. A J71 would be a much more useful rtr model to have, but manufacturers seem obsessed with the “J72s were built by the NER, LNER and BR over fifty years” story. And of course Joem survives to be measured.)

 

That said, the significant historical fact about the NER  was that uniquely (?) in England it successfully prevented any foreign infrastructure incursions into its territory, limiting even the Midland to end-on connections and the MR and everyone else to through running to York.

 

RT

Edited by RichardT
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5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Just off the top of my head - the NER & MR didn't connect at Appleby

The NER & MR *did* connect at Appleby Ravenser. (Fine username!)

 

But I’m not sure how important exchange traffic there was. You have to bear in mind that, to paraphrase David Jenkinson, no railway line in England was built with less regard to serving the local population than the Settle-Carlisle.  
 

The Stainmore Lines - the 1861 South Durham & Lancashire Union & the Eden Valley railways, later merged into the NER via the S&DR - were built both as key trans-Pennine routes *and* to tap local traffic.  The 1875 Settle-Carlisle was a Johnny-come-lately unnecessary additional main line to Scotland, built because the MR was forced to by inept railway politics. It was engineered for high speed through traffic, and if that meant local stations that were wholly inconvenient for the communities they “served” then so be it.  There was no commercial or geographic incentive for a great exchange of traffic at Appleby.

 

Going OT, I’d prefer that both routes had remained open, but if a choice had to be made it would have been far better for the flexibility of present-day cross-country rail communications and community accessibility in the Pennines if the S&C had closed and the Stainmore route stayed open.  As it is, like the loss of the magnificent Penn Station in New York prompting the outcry that saved the still-splendid-but-not-as-great Grand Central Terminal, anger at the gerrymandered closure of the Stainmore route (pre-Beeching) probably helped save the S&C, which has now been retrofitted as a community railway - despite many of its small stations being miles from any communities!

 

Returning to modelling, if you pick the Stainmore route, you not only can run ex-NER locos, but also ex-GNR D3s & ex-GER E4s, which were both used on the route in the 1930s-early 1940s. An E4 is preserved and is a very pretty little engine: how about it manufacturers?

 

RT
 

 

Edited by RichardT
Couldn’t resist adding provocative OT opinion
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 A final PS. Two excellent books if you’re interested in the railway history of the high Pennines (NOT Herriot country!):

 

“Rails in the Fells” by David Jenkinson (Peco Publications)

 

”The Stainmore & Eden Valley Railways” by Peter Walton (Oxford Publishing Company)


Both now long out of print, but secondhand copies keep popping up if you check with bookfinder.com

 

(The Walton volume can get pricy though.)

 

RT

Edited by RichardT
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5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Go LMS if you want an easier time.

 

Far more suitable stock readily available. Just off the top of my head and restricted to locomotives found in Yorkshire from about 1920 to 1950 and avoiding the large tender locomotives.

 

L&YR Radial Tank 2-4-2T

L&YR Pug 0-4-0ST (Dock tank, but they did move about a lot)

LNWR Coal Tank 0-6-2T

LNWR Super D 0-8-0

MR 1F 0-6-0T

MR1P 0-4-4T

MR 3F 0-6-0

MR 4F 0-6-0

MR 4P 4-4-0

LMS Jinty 3F 0-6-0T

LMS 4F 0-6-0

LMS Ivatt 2-6-2T

LMS 4P 2-6-4T (Fowler/Stanier/Fairbairn)

LMS 2P 4-4-0

LMS Crab 2-6-0

LMS Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0

LMS Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0

 

Modelling the LNER you are struggling with the smaller locomotives, certainly when it comes to quaint engines running through countryside. Loads of big Pacifics though.

 

NER J72 0-6-0T

LNER J50 0-6-0T

LNER J39 0-6-0

LNER K1 2-6-0

LNER K3 2-6-0

LNER V1/V3 2-6-2T

NER Q6 0-8-0

NER J26/J27 0-6-0 (Not yet released)

NER G5 0-4-4T (Not yet released)

 

 

Maybe mix and match. LNER locomotives would be found in LMS territory especially after nationalisation.

 

 

Jason

 

And the BR standards began to make an impact from the early 50s, dmus from the mid to late 50s, and diesel locomotives from about 1960. 

 

No argument with the LMS list, and I believe some Ivatt 4MT moguls were built at Darlington in early BR days and were used on the NE Region.  But the LNER list includes NER locos that were really more at home in the industrial conurbations, like the J26/7 and Q6.  You've omitted the D49 'Hunt' 4-4-0s.  The BR Standard 3MT Mogul, 77xxx, were used on the Stainmore line but that's a bit more Co. Durham than Yorkshire.  Suitable dmus; 101, 108, 110, Cravens. 

 

Returning to Lizard Cat's original post, much depends on the sort of layout we are talking about; is it a main line sort of thing, secondary cross country route, or branch terminus?  Yorkshire has a pretty low concentration of the latter, Keighley and Grassington being all I can come up with off the top of my head...

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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... is it a main line sort of thing, secondary cross country route, or branch terminus?  Yorkshire has a pretty low concentration of the latter, Keighley and Grassington being all I can come up with off the top of my head...


I presume that’s Oxenhope and Grassington.

 

There are a lot more, for example:

- Richmond

- Masham

- Pateley Bridge

- Hornsea

- Withernsea

- Cawood

- Middleton-in-Teesdale ( the station was in North Yorkshire)

 

and that’s before you get into southern  Yorkshire, with the network of lines from Leeds and Bradford south to Sheffield and Doncaster which contains quite a few branches.


I think you could split “branch line terminus” into “rural branch line terminus” and “urban branch line terminus” to give the OP even more choice.

Edited by pH
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Did the OP mention Terminus's, Termini, Terminals watever?   Thing is there weren't any LMS or LNER lines in the way there were Great Western lines.   There were North Easern, Great Northern, bit of Great Central, all LNER)  and Lancashire & Yorkshire, Midland, bit of LNWR possibly etc (LMS)  lines which essentially retained their smaller locos well into the BR era.     There were a number of urban termini in the area, especially what is now South Yorksire, Bradford seems to have a pair for no apparent reason. 

Edited by DavidCBroad
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The other station used in the original tv series was Finghall on the Wensleydale line. For the shows it was renamed Rainby Halt. So again NER land. But just apply rule 1 ok I don’t think you could get away with GWR or SR but using LMS in my mind would not be a problem.

 

Keith

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8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

And the BR standards began to make an impact from the early 50s, dmus from the mid to late 50s, and diesel locomotives from about 1960. 

 

No argument with the LMS list, and I believe some Ivatt 4MT moguls were built at Darlington in early BR days and were used on the NE Region.  But the LNER list includes NER locos that were really more at home in the industrial conurbations, like the J26/7 and Q6.  You've omitted the D49 'Hunt' 4-4-0s.  The BR Standard 3MT Mogul, 77xxx, were used on the Stainmore line but that's a bit more Co. Durham than Yorkshire.  Suitable dmus; 101, 108, 110, Cravens. 

 

Returning to Lizard Cat's original post, much depends on the sort of layout we are talking about; is it a main line sort of thing, secondary cross country route, or branch terminus?  Yorkshire has a pretty low concentration of the latter, Keighley and Grassington being all I can come up with off the top of my head...

 

I was keeping the list to what is available RTR and trying to point out there is hardly anything suitable RTR if the OP decided to model the LNER or BR NE Region using just RTR models. I'm afraid the Hornby D49 is very poor and I don't think it's been available for years. Didn't it get converted to something in the Thomas Range? Edward i think.

 

 

The LNER really is poorly catered for if you aren't modelling the ECML or GER area, I'm afraid. I also omitted the GNR 4-4-2 as I think they were more at home on the lightweight expresses. Likewise the N2s were very much suburban tank engines.

 

 

Jason

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I cheated and created The Great Dales Railway.  An independent concern but operated as a joint line with some LMS services. Really a pretext to have different coloured engines/r.stock. GDR are blue, the odd crimson LMS plus lots of weathered black things. Also I can, as the fattish controller, import locos from anywhere on the basis that GDR picked them up 2nd hand from elsewhere. 

 

Scenery etc based on DerbyDales (hence my newfound knowledge of cows & sheep from elsewhere here).  A BLT at Dinsdale connecting to junction at Barnestoneworth.*

 

So, as many on here have said, if it looks ok to you then it's ok. And if your mates come round with a few cans so they can be a signalman for an hour all the better. As long as you've got the area "feel" right, eeeeeee Bob's yer mum's brother.

 

*and yes B'worth United played in the Yorkshire Combination. I do know.

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20 hours ago, RichardT said:

The NER & MR *did* connect at Appleby Ravenser. (Fine username!)

 

But I’m not sure how important exchange traffic there was. You have to bear in mind that, to paraphrase David Jenkinson, no railway line in England was built with less regard to serving the local population than the Settle-Carlisle.  
 

The Stainmore Lines - the 1861 South Durham & Lancashire Union & the Eden Valley railways, later merged into the NER via the S&DR - were built both as key trans-Pennine routes *and* to tap local traffic.  The 1875 Settle-Carlisle was a Johnny-come-lately unnecessary additional main line to Scotland, built because the MR was forced to by inept railway politics. It was engineered for high speed through traffic, and if that meant local stations that were wholly inconvenient for the communities they “served” then so be it.  There was no commercial or geographic incentive for a great exchange of traffic at Appleby.

 

Going OT, I’d prefer that both routes had remained open, but if a choice had to be made it would have been far better for the flexibility of present-day cross-country rail communications and community accessibility in the Pennines if the S&C had closed and the Stainmore route stayed open.  As it is, like the loss of the magnificent Penn Station in New York prompting the outcry that saved the still-splendid-but-not-as-great Grand Central Terminal, anger at the gerrymandered closure of the Stainmore route (pre-Beeching) probably helped save the S&C, which has now been retrofitted as a community railway - despite many of its small stations being miles from any communities!

 

Returning to modelling, if you pick the Stainmore route, you not only can run ex-NER locos, but also ex-GNR D3s & ex-GER E4s, which were both used on the route in the 1930s-early 1940s. An E4 is preserved and is a very pretty little engine: how about it manufacturers?

 

RT
 

 

 

 

There's a fundamental problem here - one of the principal features of the Stainmore Route  was two huge but very spidery cast iron viaducts designed by Sir Thomas Bouch (of Tay Bridge disaster infamy) 

 

These imposed severe axle loading restrictions on the route, meaning that most of the list of RTR LNER locos were banned from it. In the 1950s 2MT 2-6-0s were used (the name "Mickey Mouse" was associated with the Ivatt 2MTs for a reason) - before that it was J25, E4 and other small fry, often double-headed. You might get away with a G5 - but a long steeply graded line wasn't natural territory for an 0-4-4T

 

I'm not aware of such severe restrictions on the Wensleydale line to Hawes

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48 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

These imposed severe axle loading restrictions on the route, meaning that most of the list of RTR LNER locos were banned from it. In the 1950s 2MT 2-6-0s were used (the name "Mickey Mouse" was associated with the Ivatt 2MTs for a reason) - before that it was J25, E4 and other small fry, often double-headed. You might get away with a G5 - but a long steeply graded line wasn't natural territory for an 0-4-4T

 

Larger types were eventually allowed on the Stainmore line - Ivatt 4MT moguls and Standard 3MT and 4MT moguls:

 

http://www.stainmore150.co.uk/stainmore_story/BR_standards.html

 

Edited by pH
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