Hornby model shop Tiers system

[Pre Grouping fan]

19 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

 If Hormby started manufacturing in the UK again they could getthe lads to do a bit of overtime if they had a few extra orders, or stop making them when they had a warehouse full of Yellow class 31s no one wants.

 

And prices would more than likely double at a minimum. But that argument has been done to death.

 

Production lines don't work on doing overtime "if they had a few extra orders". Quantities would be set in advanced and stuck to, maybe the odd few extra but not hundreds. 

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But did they order Rocket train packs from the factory after they received retailer orders or did they know a year or two in advance how many they would be getting?

Quite. The time to start advising dealers by how much their orders will be cut back should be at the conclusion of the ordering period. Then dealers can, in turn, stop accepting customer pre-orders once their limit is reached. 

 

There is a question over the morality, if not the legality, of accepting orders for goods if one knows at the time that it will be impossible to fulfil them.  

 

John

Edited May 27, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Pre Grouping fan]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But did they order Rocket train packs from the factory after they received retailer orders or did they know a year or two in advance how many they would be getting?

Weren't the rocket packs pretty much already delivered by the time they were announced? Or was it planned for early delivery but then delayed for some reason? 

 

The quantity would be set months or years in advance as discussed somewhere on the last few pages I've just read. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Zunnan said:

 

I agree entirely. Its a prickly subject my local wants to have out with the rep too, because there are items for sale on Amazon which he cannot get for the shop.

 

Which is lunacy on Hornby's part because I am reasonably sure that they are selling them to Mr Bezos more cheaply than they would be selling them to you.

 

More and more, this looks as though Hornby have serious cashflow issues and are doing what ever they can to bale out the sinking ship. In this context, the increased sales volumes that the Chairman reported (+33%) due to Covid may actually be making the balance sheet situation worse.

 

I did some study into this once. Most companies that fail are actually profitable. It's the negative cashflow that kills them off.

[spamcan61]

A good deal of this pre-order shenanigans could be avoided if Hornby announced new products and took dealer orders before production quantities are fixed. 

 

Of course that doesn't suit their showbiz way of doing announcements late in the day, which conveniently for Hornby makes life more difficult for the smaller "manufacturers".

Edited May 27, 2021 by spamcan61
sentence re-arranged for clarity

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

They even have boxes of pre-owned tat on the floor like other model shops.

 

Ah! Untidy.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, PeterStiles said:

 

Oliver Cromwell is begging to be purchased...

Warts and all...

 

20 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

There is a question over the morality, if not the legality, of accepting orders for goods if one knows at the time that it will be impossible to fulfil them.  

What he said, in spades!

[AY Mod]

33 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

they are in breach of those contracts now.

 

No they're not. No consideration having been exchanged.

[Legend]

21 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Actually, where have you been working, that is what usually happens. If Ford wants to make more cars they put in an extra shift. That argument about the price doubling is not necessarily true. It probably would be more expensive. Most of the bodies and tenders are injection moulded, probably made by a German machine, similarly with the chassis. The final assembly is probably where most of the cost is involved. I am sure Hornby will have done their sums, but considering the quantities they make, the transportation, it may be closer than you think. Things have moved on a lot in manufacturing in the UK since they moved production to China.

 Probably the big thing is that they don't have the cash to set it up anyway.

 

Its difficult to do a direct comparison because of local conditions (some employees in China get lodgings paid for instance) but in general labour rates in China are about 1/5th  of UK.  So manufacturing isn't coming back any time soon.

 

If you want somewhere more local then Poland , Slovakia, Turkey  are better bets but still more expensive than China 

 

The major issue at the moment is not Covid but Storm Uri that hit the US in January , remember when Texas had snow . Although it lasted 6 days , refineries and production facilities shut down and couldn't deal with the frozen temperatures . As a result Frozen pipes developed and knocked out a swathe of manufacturing capacity , which only now is coming back on line . Polypropylene and Polystyrene prices are through the roof worldwide because of the lack of supply .   I'm kind of waiting for the we must increase prices excuse . However going the other way the £ is now worth $1.39 , much different from last years $1.21 rate , so it should be cheaper to buy from China as most contracts are in USD

Edited May 27, 2021 by Legend

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

What they need are dealers with staff who have advanced bodging skills who can fix models in house without returning them to HQ. 

 

Yup, they're often the untidy shop without an online presence (Tier 3?). I know of shops who do this to satisfy customers where they can rather than let their customers down as replacement stock hasn't been available. Working for their margin and the manufacturer doesn't suffer the full consequences of poor QC but I bet that doesn't get taken into account.

[DCB]

34 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

More and more, this looks as though Hornby have serious cashflow issues and are doing what ever they can to bale out the sinking ship. In this context, the increased sales volumes that the Chairman reported (+33%) due to Covid may actually be making the balance sheet situation worse.

 

I did some study into this once. Most companies that fail are actually profitable. It's the negative cashflow that kills them off.

Absolutely right.   Companies often fail through cash flow, it's made worse by bulk buying from  countries which cannot delver product swiftly such as China and worse still by increasing sales.  They need to be paid up front and pay for the product some time after delivery to be successful, that way a failing company can survive for years with gradually decreasing sales.   Its all detailed in "Arthur Daley's book of doing it right" my personal bible.  Sell before you buy.  A container full of product which won't sell for as much as it cost for two or three months is going to put a huge strain on cash flow.  I know Hornby probably trousered a big wadge of cash when they abandoned manufacture in Margate but premises prop up the balance sheet. Loads of companies rely on the value of their sites (as brownfield housing land)  to remain in business, sites mortgaged to the hilt.   I am not suggesting Hornby isn't financially sound but if it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck .... (while beig a model of an A 2/1 its probably not of merchantable quality)

[JohnR]

45 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

I have just looked, if I didn't have one, I would definitely be going for it. That is one I preordered off TMC. I paid a lot more than that for it.

 

I think thats pretty close to what a retailer would have paid for it (£111+VAT). I use the Cameliser price tracker for Amazon, heres its record of whats happened to the price of Oliver Cromwell.

 

 

 

 

[JohnR]

16 minutes ago, dube said:

Didn’t Hattons loan Hornby 2 million a few years ago ? And know there only suppling Amazon with as much as they can sell !

 

Not as far as I know - it would have been recorded in the published accounts of both companies, and its not there.

 

I do recall Hattons buying a lot of slow moving stock from Hornby a few years ago to get them out of a hole? Or am i imagining that?

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Or am i imagining that?

 

No, there was a substantial amount of stock. I'm sure it was acceptable to both but it led to a period where many retailers couldn't get hold of bread and butter.

 

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

in the UK we use machines which are cheaper in the long run, but that needs investment which Hornby cannot afford.

 

And nor can anyone else - short production runs, fiddly models with lots of hand-fitted components, almost impossible to make a machine to do this, and if you could, it would cost far, far more than doing it by hand. For runs where numbers might not reach 3000, it's simply not financially viable either here or China.

[JohnR]

3 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

The thing is I bought that loco, it is not that modern compared to some of the other Britannias like Anzac, so £129 is actually what is what I would call a reasonable price.

 

Not sure why you would think that - it came out in 2021, and wasnt in the Railroad range. 

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

A good deal of this pre-order shenanigans could be avoided if Hornby announced new products and took dealer orders before production quantities are fixed. 

 

Of course that doesn't suit their showbiz way of doing announcements late in the day, which conveniently for Hornby makes life more difficult for the smaller "manufacturers".

 

They could announce things several years before starting production if you liked - just like Bachmann used to do, to the sound of regular tantrums on here about waiting for models and people demanding customers who hadn't paid for anything be "compensated" for delays.

 

The more I read of this thread, the more I'm convinced that all manufacturers should just jack it all in. It's certainly what I feel like right now.

[andyman7]

 

 

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

26 pages  Hattons Bashing, Hornby Bashing.  Hornby seem to be in a sort of twilight world, a manufacturer with no manufacturing capability, and no bricks and mortar retail infrastructure and limited control over suppliers quality control, just a brand name.

What they need are dealers with staff who have advanced bodging skills who can fix models in house without returning them to HQ.      I guess from my own experience Hattons, Heljan and Dapol side step the warranty problems by getting on top of the quality control issues, but  to be honest I just expect to have to spend a couple of hours feettling any new Hornby loco before it runs decently.  But it's a good feeling when you've fixed it. A sense of involvement you miss when you buy a Hattons or Heljan loco which just runs brilliantly straight out of the box.   If Hormby started manufacturing in the UK again they could getthe lads to do a bit of overtime if they had a few extra orders, or stop making them when they had a warehouse full of Yellow class 31s no one wants.

Did you ever read the Hattons Class 66 thread? Or buy a Heljan Clayton? Or a Dapol Class 121? (And no, this is not knocking them, just highlighting some of the inconsistencies in this argument).

20 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I do recall Hattons buying a lot of slow moving stock from Hornby a few years ago to get them out of a hole? Or am i imagining that?

 

8 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

No, there was a substantial amount of stock. I'm sure it was acceptable to both but it led to a period where many retailers couldn't get hold of bread and butter.

Oh yes - all those local model shops with Hornby stock they struggled to shift because 'Hattons are selling it cheaper'.....

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

all those local model shops with Hornby stock they struggled to shift because 'Hattons are selling it cheaper'.....

 

Apart from those who told me they just couldn't get X, y and z for a while - I'm thinking certain accessories.

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

 

Oliver Cromwell is begging to be purchased...

 

Unfortunately in a previous incarnation,many of us did,even though it was as rare as a hen’s tooth.Hence second time round probably not too many takers so I think this maybe reflected in the current price on the zone of Am. Often the case with Hornby when a second edition breaks cover ? Agree by today’s prices,somewhat of a bargain though 

 

 

 

 

[Islesy]

1 hour ago, dube said:

Didn’t Hattons loan Hornby 2 million a few years ago ?

No.

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, Islesy said:

No.

 

This is like when Harold Wilson resigned, and there were all those rumours about millions of pounds worth of Diamonds in a safe in Downing Street. 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

It'd be interesting to hear the thoughts of the likes of Rapido on the flexibility of factories to expand production on the basis of larger than expected pre-orders.  Rapido own their own factories and manufacture what's been pre-ordered with a few extras and spare parts on top.

 

 

 

 

 

As I understand it Rapido operate on a totally different business model in that customers have to pre-order and ONLY when a certain threshold has been reached does production happen. Even then there will be a cut off - if you haven't pre-ordered before such and such a date then you will find it hard to get hold of them as the exact amount Rapido order from the factory is basically the number of pre-orders they have received.

 

All very different from Hornbys model which basically involves placing an from the factory for a specific number of models before the customer even knows the model is going to be made.

[Islesy]

2 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

This is like when Harold Wilson resigned, and there were all those rumours about millions of pounds worth of Diamonds in a safe in Downing Street. 

All that was left in my draw were some old Extra Strong Mints, a couple of TTS Decoders and a list of potential new models…

[Waraqah]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

I think thats pretty close to what a retailer would have paid for it (£111+VAT). I use the Cameliser price tracker for Amazon, heres its record of whats happened to the price of Oliver Cromwell.

 

 

 

 

Funny-looking outline - are you sure that's a Britannia?