Fire at / under Elephant and Castle

[Kris]

Being reported in the arches under the station. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57642027

[steve1]

Hope all ok.

 

Just glad I don't work there anymore.

 

steve

[Simon Lee]

Garage business in a railway arch.

 

 

https://twitter.com/itvlondon/status/14 ... 6290637827

[Hroth]

Just spotted it on the BBC website.

 

Who owns the actual railway arches, Network Rail, I suppose, though it wouldn't surprise me if some long forgotten beancounter had monetised the property value and some property company has leases on them...

Anyhow, whoever is in charge is going to have to review what industrial processes can go on at such sites to prevent damage to the rail network infrastructure!

[Wickham Green too]

8 minutes ago, Hroth said:

...... Anyhow, whoever is in charge is going to have to review what industrial processes can go on at such sites to prevent damage to the rail network infrastructure!

BBC London news report stated that such a review is already underway ....... perhaps they should have started sooner.

[DIW]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

Just spotted it on the BBC website.

 

Who owns the actual railway arches, Network Rail, I suppose, though it wouldn't surprise me if some long forgotten beancounter had monetised the property value and some property company has leases on them...

Anyhow, whoever is in charge is going to have to review what industrial processes can go on at such sites to prevent damage to the rail network infrastructure!

 

Exactly that.

 

So many of the railway arches in London have been handed over that it is rather difficult to find any still in NR's possession, in which to propose installation of equipment for NR's benefit.

[Nearholmer]

10 hours ago, Hroth said:

Anyhow, whoever is in charge is going to have to review what industrial processes can go on at such sites to prevent damage to the rail network infrastructure

There may have been some “un-learning” going on here, or one may have ‘slipped through the net’, because this was certainly a well understood risk at one time, with activity ‘policed’ to some extent by BR, and LU (which owns a lot of arches) had (still has I think) a very active team on the case. The key method of persuasion was the lease, which restricted what could be done, and the willingness to evict if it was habitually breached in dangerous ways.

[2251]

11 hours ago, DIW said:

 

Exactly that.

 

So many of the railway arches in London have been handed over that it is rather difficult to find any still in NR's possession, in which to propose installation of equipment for NR's benefit.

 

"Monetising", to use the modern phrase, the space is not a new idea. In recent times these have been the ubiquitous lock-ups, garages, etc., but at a very early point, the London & Greenwich had the idea of building cheap houses in the space, although for obvious reasons that never took off:

 

[GoingUnderground]

The history of "monetising" bridges goes way way  back before the start of the railways. And monetising them is a way to raise funds for their maintenance, not the evil that some seem to think.

 

In the UK, one only has to think of "old" London Bridge which from its opening in 1209 had houses on it as a way to raise funds for its upkeep. The houses lasted until 1761 when the final houses on the bridge were demolished.

 

In Italy the Ponte Vecchio in Florence dates back to 1345, there were earlier bridges on the site, and is said to have had buildings on it from the start. It is unclear, at least from my sources, as to whether the earlier bridges also had shops on them. I doubt that the shopkeepers occupy the premises for free.

[Bucoops]

They are saying no structural damage to the arches and everything is running again. Got lucky there as it was an intense fire.

 

A couple* of years ago there was a big hoo-ha at NR or their agent trying to evict long standing leaseholders to replace with more upmarket (and higher rent) tenants. Not sure where that got to.

 

*could be more, it was definitely pre-covid and that's about all my little brain can cope with!

[phil-b259]

15 hours ago, Hroth said:

Just spotted it on the BBC website.

Who owns the actual railway arches...

 

Not Network Rail any more!

 

That beacon of sound financial management (HM Treasury) made NR sell them off - and in true HM Treasury tradition not only undervalued them before flogging off to their property developer mates, but has also managed to screw over tenants and increase the cost of infrastructure projects should NR find it needs to buy some of them back.

 

 

https://property.networkrail.co.uk/commercial-estate-sale/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/10/network-rail-sells-railway-arches-real-estate-investors-telereal-trillium-blackstone-property-partners

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/13/network-rail-failed-railway-arch-tenants-in-15bn-sale-say-mps

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by phil-b259

[Nearholmer]

You sure?

 

Im pretty sure NR sold a ‘right to exploit’, not the arches themselves.

 

If I’m correct, still for NR to exercise due diligence to see that the ‘exploiter’ is effectively managing the tennants so as not to imperil the structures. And, they may be doing so - it’s ruddy difficult to have a close eye on all the tenants, all the time. Fires in arches happened under the old regime too, occasionally fires in arches occupied by BR itself!

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Nearholmer

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 Fires in arches happened under the old regime too, occasionally fires in arches occupied by BR itself!

 

 

 

Indeed they did - and I'm not saying that the sell off has necessarily made them more likely.

 

However I'm fed up to the back teeth with this obsession with outsourcing stuff simply to make a quick buck which HM Treasury and the ruling party are / have been imposing on everything in the public sector. Public sector assets are there to be nurtured to generate profits for the country measured in terms of decades - they are not there to generate quick one off lump sum when flogged off to bankers / venture capitalists / mates of the Conservative party.

 

As far as I was aware NR was doing quite well looking after things (including doing deals with developers where it was beneficial for the business etc) without the need to have a massive sell off.

[jim.snowdon]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not Network Rail any more!

 

That beacon of sound financial management (HM Treasury) made NR sell them off - and in true HM Treasury tradition not only undervalued them before flogging off to their property developer mates, but has also managed to screw over tenants and increase the cost of infrastructure projects should NR find it needs to buy some of them back.

 

 

https://property.networkrail.co.uk/commercial-estate-sale/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/10/network-rail-sells-railway-arches-real-estate-investors-telereal-trillium-blackstone-property-partners

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/13/network-rail-failed-railway-arch-tenants-in-15bn-sale-say-mps

 

According to the Guardian's 2019 article, the arches were not sold out of NR ownership, but leased to the private consortium for 150 years. NR still owns them, and will still have the responsibility to ensure that they are structurally sound for the purposes of carrying the railway. The occupants of the arches do so under a sub-lease.