Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I'm getting the impression that home charging is practical in a strictly limited number of settings .

Just because you have an unusual or difficult situation, doesn’t mean the whole world is like that.

The overwhelming majority of properties with a garage, drive or other off-road parking, should easily accommodate a charging point.

There will always be relatively rare exceptions.

You may, or may not be one of them.

Until you get someone in to look at the situation and assess your requirements, you don’t really know where you stand as far as cost and feasibility are concerned.

 

 

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[admiles]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

While that is true for many people, the generally accepted estimate is that 60% of all households do have off road/drive and/or garage facilities.

 

While the remaining 40% without sounds like a lot, households with a drive or garage on average have more cars, therefore it'll be less than 40% of cars.

It is a big issue though and it isn't being ignored, with various solutions being proposed.

 

 

.

 

I have both a drive and a garage but no electricity to either.  So with no charging possible at home or at work that currently makes an EV a non-starter.

[30801]

7 minutes ago, admiles said:

I have both a drive and a garage but no electricity to either.  So with no charging possible at home or at work that currently makes an EV a non-starter.

 

That's not in itself a deal breaker depending on your layout.

I know someone who has someone else's house between his house and garage so that one is quite difficult.

I don't know what you'd do there other than have an independent supply from the street. 

[shady]

On 07/09/2021 at 23:43, AndyID said:

 

I particularly enjoyed the "sudo-science" 

 

What we need to do is separate the science from the politics. Of course that is extremely difficult but if we fail to do that I think we are in for far greater problems.

 

BTW, solid-state batteries are in development that might help a lot but the technology is still quite immature.

 Oh yes so I had a brain fart , (I was switching back and forward from typing in terminal windows). I notice that you continue to  attack the person , because you cant attack the argument, but given all you can contribute is one line putdowns and links to reports that you clearly don't understand (even if you ignore the fact they are hopelessly out of date) , I suppose I should not expect anything else.  If you actually read ALL of the 2nd report (not just the conclusion) you would have seen that the author stated that for Both PV and wind farms Lithium Batteries are the better option for electrical energy storage. You would also have understood that his entire premise was based on the amount of energy required to manufacture the storage medium V the amount of energy stored and returned over its life cycle (which have since vastly improved for lithium batteries), perhaps you could remind us all how much energy is required to make a Lithium battery pack that has already been made ? (clue its a very round number).

 

I know you seem to thing the energy that is presently curtailed due a lack of end user is free , but as soon as you have more than one customer prepared to pay for that energy it will cease to be free , if the customer using batteries can afford to outbid the customer using hydrogen , because the battery customer can return 3 times the amount of electricity for every unit initially stored, which one do you think will survive long term ? (to say nothing of the fact that the battery customer can have a smaller initial capital outlay in the first place).

 

You then seem to think that just because you can use Hydrogen to make other fuels that makes everything alright, yet you accuse me of being dogmatic !!!!!!

I have no reason to be fixated on any particular form of renewable/alternative energy generation or storage method (either electrical or other), I will use what is the best available/cost effective at the time. 30 Years ago I only used Lead Acid Batteries or Nicad , currently I use a mix of Lead Acid and Lithium , if I am still alive in 30 years time who knows what I will be using, but I seriously doubt it will be Hydrogen.  I suspect I will go back to producing Bio-diesel at some point in the next few years , but will use a more suitable feedstock.

 

If people are clinging to the hope that some how Hydrogen is going to save cheap long distance aviation , they are going to be disappointed.

 

here is a couple of more recent links,

 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210401-the-worlds-first-commercial-hydrogen-plane

https://singularityhub.com/2021/01/03/scientists-just-created-a-catalyst-that-turns-co2-into-jet-fuel/

 

It would be decades away at best before we would even have anything like sufficient "free" energy to produce "Green wash hydrogen".

If you divert electrical energy (that with a little thought can actually be used ) from the power grid to produce "green wash hydrogen" , but in doing so force the

grid to burn Gas/Oil/Coal to meet its needs , just how green is the hydrogen?

 

Sadly the UK, like other countries suffers from politicians liking sexy sounding solutions that they do not personally understand, so various plants get built for "local jobs" Et Cetera , They never seem to ask the question "if the idea is so viable , why does it need government money or tax breaks before it can be made to work?"

 

There are a few battery chemistries in development that might have great  promise IF ALL the claims can be met , but I will wait until someone can show me a real world working example that is economically viable to be used at scale before basing any plans on using them.

 

But, best ignore me as I don't know what I am talking about, have no actual real world experience and obviously never speak face to face (pre covid) with either scientists or others that have practical experience either.

[PenrithBeacon]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Just because you have an unusual or difficult situation, doesn’t mean the whole world is like that.

The overwhelming majority of properties with a garage, drive or other off-road parking, should easily accommodate a charging point.

There will always be relatively rare exceptions.

You may, or may not be one of them.

Until you get someone in to look at the situation and assess your requirements, you don’t really know where you stand as far as cost and feasibility are concerned.

 

 

.

 

Yeah,  right!

If it is necessary to run a separate high capacity cable from the distribution panel for fast charging then that seems me to rule out a lot  of domestic housing from the fast charger market unless the householders are willing to spend a lot of money and put up with a lot of inconvenience while the work is being done. 

The glossy websites are not telling the whole truth!

[30801]

11 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Yeah,  right!

If it is necessary to run a separate high capacity cable from the distribution panel for fast charging then that seems me to rule out a lot  of domestic housing from the fast charger market unless the householders are willing to spend a lot of money and put up with a lot of inconvenience while the work is being done. 

The glossy websites are not telling the whole truth!

 

You’re having a laugh.

See all the houses with satellite dishes?

A charger is barely more work than that (unless you have a 70’ trench to dig).

Our install took a couple of hours to do.

[PenrithBeacon]

6 hours ago, idd15 said:

Yes, but for a 7kw charger I would guess the installer  would want to run a new dedicated feed from your distribution board to the garage. It could be cheaper just to mount the charger on an exterior wall of the house and charge outside on the drive. 

 

An EV driver around here has a PodPoint charger mounted half way down their quite long front drive on a post. I thought it a bit odd but then saw they had a couple of EV’s so it makes a lot of sense with a single width drive.
 

 

Hth 

idd

 

47 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

You’re having a laugh.

See all the houses with satellite dishes?

A charger is barely more work than that (unless you have a 70’ trench to dig).

Our install took a couple of hours to do.

No I'm not having a laugh, I was taking a cue from idd15's post quoted above. This post hasn't been contradicted.

If, as you infer, the power supply can be a fused spur off the ring main then I don't see an issue. 

And it won't be necessary to dig a 70ft trench, an armoured cable down to the garage would be all that's needed. There is already a fused spur (actually with a circuit breaker) to power the water feature that has worked quite satisfactorily for the last 20 years, another for charging an EV shouldn't be a problem. Assuming, of course, that this is a viable solution, I'm not an electrician. 

[30801]

40 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

If, as you infer, the power supply can be a fused spur off the ring main then I don't see an issue. 

And it won't be necessary to dig a 70ft trench, an armoured cable down to the garage would be all that's needed. 

 

No you can't just spur off the ring main. Even if you were only putting in a 13A socket it would not be the best idea. In fact the manual for the Leaf's granny charger strongly recommended the socket be on a 16A circuit with its own breaker (like you get to your garage)

The feed needs to come from the consumer unit on its own 16 or 32A circuit. This isn't a big deal though.

 

I'm hazy on the regulations for outdoor wiring but I don't think you can just leave the cable running along the ground. 

[idd15]

OK, you can't run a 7Kw charger off a ring main fused spur. The wiring regs would not allow it and the installer would get into serious trouble if they did do that. It is essentially the same rules as if you wanted to fit a new electric shower or a new oven circuit in the house. 

 

I think most charger installs are quoted as a fixed price with the charger being a maximum of so many meters from  the dwelling distribution board. Usually they take a new feed directly from the meter to a new small consumer unit/circuit breaker they fit, and from there to the charger. They prefer to do it this way as they don't have to mess around with an existing consumer unit/wiring  that may have been installed many years ago to a lower standard. So it all makes for a nice "clean" and quicker install.

 

So here at IDD towers we boast FOUR consumer units. Number 1 installed when we moved in and rewired the place 31 years ago. Number 2 was installed when we built the West wing 10 years later. Number 3 was installed when we built the East wing 8 years later. Finally Number 4 arrived with the Podpoint charger.

 

You are right you would require a 70 ft armoured cable, but I think the wiring regs may well require you to bury it. Again it is the same as if you were installing power into a new shed in the garden.

 

So yes you would undoubtedly incur extra cost in your particular case if you wanted to install it 70ft away. Hence my suggestion you stick it on a house wall nearer the consumer unit, but this may not suit. Certainly all the houses round here have their chargers on the house wall save for the one I mentioned above. 

 

Its been a long time since I have had to deep dive into the wiring regs, so again the advice is as always get a qualified installer to look at it and quote. There are a few electricians who do YouTube videos of their installs, Artisan Electrics for example, which may help you.

 

Can't help you with the floor I'm afraid, it all sounds a lot posher than our under stairs cupboard.

 

idd

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Yeah,  right!

If it is necessary to run a separate high capacity cable from the distribution panel for fast charging then that seems me to rule out a lot  of domestic housing from the fast charger market unless the householders are willing to spend a lot of money and put up with a lot of inconvenience while the work is being done. 

 

 

Lots of households are having exactly that sort of work done.

The installation usually takes anything from a couple of hours, up to a working day, depending on the job..

However, digging a 70ft trench to lay a cable to the bottom of the garden would be a fairly rare occurrence and obviously will involve extra time and expense.

 

 

47 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

......If, as you infer, the power supply can be a fused spur off the ring main then I don't see an issue. 

And it won't be necessary to dig a 70ft trench, an armoured cable down to the garage would be all that's needed. ......

 

An armoured cable would still need to be properly laid...the same 70ft trench...same difference.

 

Very slow charging can be done off a regular 3-pin plug, but it takes far too long and not usually recommended for your normal home charging arrangements.

A proper charging point requires its own dedicated supply, properly protected and with safe protection for the whole household supply.

There aren't any major issues in this. It just requires suitable work and additions in your meter cupboard and to your consumer unit.

 

If your objections or concerns are really about the cost, then say so.

Please don't try and dress it up with spurious arguments and trying to find excuses why your particular installation circumstances can't be addressed.

If you have no desire to switch to an EV, or you think you won't be able to afford it, then just be honest and say so. 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

8 minutes ago, idd15 said:

.......There are a few electricians who do YouTube videos of their installs, Artisan Electrics for example, which may help you.

 

 

A good shout out for Artisan Electrics, as the young folk say.

Well worth a watch to get an idea of what's involved in some awkward and challenging situations, as well as the much more common, fairly straightforward installations.

 

I would also recommend Fully Charged, which is the channel with the largest following and which covers all sorts of aspects of electric energy and electric (and hydrogen fuel-cell) vehicles.

They are at the forefront of dismissing a lot of the myths and misinformation that surround these subjects.

 

.

 

[StuAllen]

Is there an etiquette to charging at hotels? Can you leave your car plugged in overnight as an example, does this mean that hotels will need to add a lot more charging points as surely it will get to a point where most of the cars in the car park will need charging.

 

[30801]

4 minutes ago, StuAllen said:

Is there an etiquette to charging at hotels? Can you leave your car plugged in overnight as an example,

Depends.

If it’s a rapid charger charge and then go away.

If it’s a slow charger that takes some hours overnight is fine.

 

I once came across a BMW PHEV that can only charge at 3kW plugged in to a 50kW hotel rapid and it had been there twelve hours. Funny thing was it was a Polar unit and after 90 minutes there’s a £10 per hour overstay fee.

[idd15]

29 minutes ago, StuAllen said:

Is there an etiquette to charging at hotels? Can you leave your car plugged in overnight as an example, does this mean that hotels will need to add a lot more charging points as surely it will get to a point where most of the cars in the car park will need charging.

 

Think it varies from hotel to hotel tbh. Previously when I 've stayed somewhere with a rapid charger it has been operated by Polar as a "public" charger and as 30801 says they have an overstay fee.

 

At a smaller hotel we stayed in this summer it had a single 7kw fast charger (free!) and was on a first come first served basis. However I used to do a car park check every night to ensure I was not blocking any other users from using it, and move off it if there was a free space in the car park. Fortunately for me I was the only person with an EV staying there so not really a problem.

 

So I don't think an "etiquette" has developed yet that I am aware of. Really the hotel should have a WhatsApp group for guests with an EV so that they can share the charger easily...

 

idd

 

 

[idd15]

11 hours ago, shady said:

 

But, best ignore me as I don't know what I am talking about, have no actual real world experience and obviously never speak face to face (pre covid) with either scientists or others that have practical experience either.

But I'd rather not as I agree with much you say, despite your preference for driving old polluting cars! 

 

I always remember a particular lecture as a first year undergraduate were one of our esteemed doctors and CEGB (remember them?) consultant dismissed wind turbines as a viable generating method with a very simple formula showing their energy conversion can be no greater than 30%. The following year I went to a guest lecture hosted by the IEE were another esteemed doctor updated us on the research he was doing into building wind turbines as wind farms "because we are going to need lots of them". 

 

Yes I suppose I do cling to the "hope" that we'll be able to decarbonise aviation and other industries. Quite how I don't know, but I gain comfort from the fact that an awful lot of people are actively working on the problem from all sides.

 

Cheers

idd

 

 

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, StuAllen said:

Is there an etiquette to charging at hotels? Can you leave your car plugged in overnight as an example, does this mean that hotels will need to add a lot more charging points as surely it will get to a point where most of the cars in the car park will need charging.

 

Most of the hotels I’ve stayed at have 3rd party, public use rapid chargers (50kw+) that you pay to use. I’ve never seen them blocked due to the overstay charges 

 

some hotels have destination chargers (usually 7kw) which means it’s first up, best dressed as many will need to be plugged in for a while.

 

my colleagues stay at one such hotel who are now going to add extra chargers as they can see an increase in EV customers already and it’s becoming a selling point they can offer & publicise.

[PenrithBeacon]

9 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Lots of households are having exactly that sort of work done.

The installation usually takes anything from a couple of hours, up to a working day, depending on the job..

However, digging a 70ft trench to lay a cable to the bottom of the garden would be a fairly rare occurrence and obviously will involve extra time and expense.

 

 

 

An armoured cable would still need to be properly laid...the same 70ft trench...same difference.

 

Very slow charging can be done off a regular 3-pin plug, but it takes far too long and not usually recommended for your normal home charging arrangements.

A proper charging point requires its own dedicated supply, properly protected and with safe protection for the whole household supply.

There aren't any major issues in this. It just requires suitable work and additions in your meter cupboard and to your consumer unit.

 

If your objections or concerns are really about the cost, then say so.

Please don't try and dress it up with spurious arguments and trying to find excuses why your particular installation circumstances can't be addressed.

If you have no desire to switch to an EV, or you think you won't be able to afford it, then just be honest and say so. 

 

 

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I really do object most strongly to you imputing my honesty.  It isn't  my honesty which is at issue here but the honesty of those who gloss over the practical issues of home charging. 

Having a detached garage is not an unusual experience for the motoring public. In fact it is a very common experience for householders of a pre-1960s property. 

There's more to home charging than meets the  eye and I'm doubtful if it will be possible in our house, but it won't change the fact that EV are coming and that we are going to have to change from the traditional ICE vehicles. 

[30801]

11 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I'm doubtful if it will be possible in our house,

 

It's entirely possible. It's just if you want to hide the cables away and have long runs it's more work and expense.

The majority of installs really are like banging in a Sky dish. Quick in-out jobs.

[StuAllen]

Thanks for the real world feedback on hotels, I don’t have an EV at the moment but I suspect my next car in 3-4 year time will be. What made me ask the question was that I was reading an article saying Premier Inn saying they’re deploying 1,000 chargers to 300 hotels over the next 3 years, that only 3ish per hotel, I don’t think that’s a lot. 
 

 I think it’s going to need people to have a change in mindset on how they use them at hotels, I know when I get to the room the last thing I’ll be thinking of is moving the car especially if I’ve arrived late in the evening, and I don’t think I’m alone thinking that. 
 

I guess from the hotel point of view there is a cost to upgrading their sites, so it will be demand from their customers that will drive the speed that they change.

 

Maybe there are other business opportunities out there, I’m thinking long term airport parking, We’ll make sure your car is returned fully charged for an extra £30 as an example.

[Reorte]

How about where I park my car on my property but it's separated away from the house by a shared access for all the houses in the row? The practical barriers to installing a charger there won't be great (it's not that long a gap), but I've no idea what legal ones might be involved.

[APOLLO]

Just read this. Any other sources of info ?

 

Charging points for electric cars will be preset to turn off for nine hours a day amid fears they could cause blackouts with the government pushing the switch from diesel and petrol.

From May, every new charger will automatically not function at 'peak times' to ease the pressure on the national grid.

There is also set to be a 'randomised delay' of up to 30 minutes if there is high demand from motorists.  

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9982253/Charging-points-electric-cars-preset-turn-NINE-HOURS-day.html#comments

 

Brit15

[30801]

21 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Just read this. Any other sources of info ?

 

Can't find one. Difficult to extract actual facts from a Fail article.

A hardwired 8-11 & 4-10 limit seems not something any modern engineer would come up with. For example OVO's Drive Anytime tariff gives you a 5p/kWh daytime rate by monitoring grid conditions and charging when there's a surplus.

A timer is something the Victorians would put in.

[black and decker boy]

24 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

 

A timer is something the Victorians would put in.

So that aligns with our civil service who are firmly stuck in the dark ages.

 

Remember the Hot water temperature limits / limiters & mandatory council inspections from a few years ago?

[PenrithBeacon]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/12/road-pricing-may-be-the-best-option-as-number-of-electric-cars-rises

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/12/road-pricing-may-be-the-best-option-as-number-of-electric-cars-rises

A story that goes the rounds frequently  and in reality is the only way HM Treasury will continue to draw in the equivalent  tax as zero emissions vehicles become the majority.

 

it also supports any green agenda and to control congestion 

 

I’d say it’s inevitable.