mikemeg Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 I do have more. Forgive me if this is overload, but here goes..... Hope you do not mind me posting these Mike - but it is sometimes an interesting spot to watch trains. Platform 1A can also be clearly seen on most of the shots running in front of the 'box. Cheers, Chris. Chris, No problem and no overload. These pictures are worthy of any thread and make this one far more interesting. So far from minding you posting these pictures I'll encourage you to post more, for this place is now almost unique, certainly on what was the old LNER and, in terms of these McKenzie & Holland structures, then anywhere. Don't these pictures serve as a wonderful reminder of a railway almost completely changed? And this place will join that change later this year. Cheers and many thanks Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Sean, No a very fair question. Hessle Haven is my own layout and will, hopefully, remain so; therefore I have to build models of the prototype signals circa mid 1950. The Scarborough models are for a model of Scarborough now being planned, though I would have built that monster by the roundhouse, and will - which will be the first to be built - just for fun or perhaps to keep Horsetan quiet - just joking Horsetan, though you won't be satisfied (or probably quiet) until I've built that thing at Rugby. All of this is to be background to those B1's and, initially a couple of D20's. So I'll be updating a different section of this topic area for a week or three! Cheers Mike Scarborough model? Wow, thats going to bo one to look out for in the future. I hope it is planned to go out on the circuit, I'd love to see it...... Hello John, If I recall the spectacle plate on the calling on arm is missing altogether! Is that still the case Mike? It's been like that for years, and I supoose if it is not fixed now it never will be. Cheers, Chris. Hi Chris. I think I'm right in saying, (although Mick Nicholson, (or Mike), will be quick to correct me if I'm wrong), but as I recall, calling on signals all had a clear lens as the "Go ahead" aspect. There was one at Bridlington South to bring trains "on top" in platform 6 and I'm sure this one also had its lens missing. The mists of time may have clouded my mind though, (it's 10 years since I left the railway for pastures new). Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Yes, Calling On Arms do have a white light for the "ON" aspect, see attached photo taken at Springbank North Hull, there is no glass and the lamp can be seen, By the way the Scarbrough signals are miniature Shunting Signals not "Calling On", the later have Horizontal stripes. Incorrect statement, there is one "Calling On" arm, see later corrections. Best Wishes, Mick. Hi Chris. I think I'm right in saying, (although Mick Nicholson, (or Mike), will be quick to correct me if I'm wrong), but as I recall, calling on signals all had a clear lens as the "Go ahead" aspect. There was one at Bridlington South to bring trains "on top" in platform 6 and I'm sure this one also had its lens missing. The mists of time may have clouded my mind though, (it's 10 years since I left the railway for pastures new). Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Yes, Calling On Arms do have a white light for the Proceded aspect, see attached photo taken at Springbank North Hull, there is no glass and the lamp can be seen, Thanks Mick. Nice to know my Grey matter is still, (fully?), functional!..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallows Close Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 By the way the Scarbrough signals are miniature Shunting Signals not "Calling On", the later have Horizontal stripes. Best Wishes, Mick. Hi Mick, I was referring to the arm on the doll with the theatre indicator. I always thought that this was a "calling on" signal - and I noticed that it has no lens for the Stop aspect (you can see from the photos earlier in the thread). This thread is both educational and inspirational - thanks for all the info Mick and Sean. Cheers, Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Dear Chris, you are indeed correct there is a "Calling On" arm, I should have looked more closerly. Please accept my apology. Best Wishers, Mick Hi Mick, I was referring to the arm on the doll with the theatre indicator. I always thought that this was a "calling on" signal - and I noticed that it has no lens for the Stop aspect (you can see from the photos earlier in the thread). This thread is both educational and inspirational - thanks for all the info Mick and Sean. Cheers, Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 16, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2010 Sorry to p** upon your parade fellahs but it would seem an inexactitude has crept in (although Chris has already got more than halfway to the correct answer). The Calling On arm at Falsgrave has no glass in the normal spectacle and glass in the spectacle which would be illuminated when the arm is 'off' - which means it will exhibit a white light when it is 'on' and a green light (of restricted size) when it is 'off'. The white light at 'on', green light at 'off' arrangement has been the standard for semaphore subsidiary signals (including Calling On signals) since the 1930s, if not the previous decade. (RCH standard 1930s/BR 1950 Book - Rule 35, BR 1972 Rule Book E Section C Clause 3.2.3.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D.J.K. Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 This link has pictures of signals at Llandudno.... http://www.roscalen....dudno/index.htm The seventh picture down shows a calling on arm with the "red" spectacle plated over. A close up would reveal a small hole drilled in the plating allowing the white from the signal lamp to shine through.... I only mention this because having recently installed a signal gantry, I realise I've completely forgotten to do this with the calling on arms.... Oh B***** Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallows Close Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 The Calling On arm at Falsgrave has no glass in the normal spectacle and glass in the spectacle which would be illuminated when the arm is 'off' - which means it will exhibit a white light when it is 'on' and a green light (of restricted size) when it is 'off'. Thanks for the explaination Mike, although I will not accept any credit for being half right. I was wrong. I thought that the lack of lens for the red was a fault - which having stood just by the gantry on innumerable occasions I should hve realised would hve been fixed if was indeed a fault! The thing is so rickerty now that any work must be done with a cherry-picker, and one can only guess as to whether it will fall down before it is removed in the autumn. Dear Chris, you are indeed correct there is a "Calling On" arm, I should have looked more closerly. Please accept my apology. No apology needed Mick - I did not explain myself properly - and I am not 100% on the correct terminology so it should be me who apologises. Cheers, Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Sorry to p** upon your parade fellahs but it would seem an inexactitude has crept in (although Chris has already got more than halfway to the correct answer). The Calling On arm at Falsgrave has no glass in the normal spectacle and glass in the spectacle which would be illuminated when the arm is 'off' - which means it will exhibit a white light when it is 'on' and a green light (of restricted size) when it is 'off'. The white light at 'on', green light at 'off' arrangement has been the standard for semaphore subsidiary signals (including Calling On signals) since the 1930s, if not the previous decade. (RCH standard 1930s/BR 1950 Book - Rule 35, BR 1972 Rule Book E Section C Clause 3.2.3.) Dear Mike, thanks for bring the error of my ways to every one's attention, yesterday must have been a bad day. My excuse is it is 42 years turned since I last saw the Springbank North signal (MAS from May 1968) and working with nothing but colour light signals for almost the last twenty years as "Puddled my Brain". I have amended my original message accordingly. It is most important these details are correctly recorded, ours is probably the last generation to see things first hand, the next wont be able to. Best Wishes, Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Hi Mick, This thread is both educational and inspirational - thanks for all the info Mick and Sean. Cheers, Chris. Well no-one can say fairer than that. It's a bit of a 'hobby horse' with me but I do believe that this site should be inspirational and educational. Certainly I read some of the loco builders threads, assiduously, especially some of the 7mm builders; they are true craftsmen in their own right and so much can be learned from them. It's probably also worth remembering that we saw this railway of the 1950's and 60's day in and day out, yet we never thought to measure or photograph much of what we saw - it would be there forever. Of course it wasn't there forever and has almost completely gone, so now we really should record, as comprehensively as possible, these last few vestiges of that railway. Here endeth this mornings ........... Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted June 17, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 17, 2010 It's probably also worth remembering that we saw this railway of the 1950's and 60's day in and day out, yet we never thought to measure or photograph much of what we saw - it would be there forever. Of course it wasn't there forever and has almost completely gone, so now we really should record, as comprehensively as possible, these last few vestiges of that railway. We should record all the railway scene, today is tomorrows history and things vanish - doesn't matter if its a colour light or a semaphore gantry, here today, gone tomorrow and in 30 years time there will no doubt be people asking "Anyone got any pictures of the colour lights which were installed at Scarborough in 2010, I remember when we used to have fixed signals instead of this new fangled moving block" Here endeth my 0.02p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Hmmmn. Seems my Grey matter might not be as sharp as I first thought then..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 17, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 17, 2010 We should record all the railway scene, today is tomorrows history and things vanish - doesn't matter if its a colour light or a semaphore gantry, here today, gone tomorrow and in 30 years time there will no doubt be people asking "Anyone got any pictures of the colour lights which were installed at Scarborough in 2010, I remember when we used to have fixed signals instead of this new fangled moving block" Here endeth my 0.02p Exactly so. I have been recording the changes in the appearance of some local colour light signals over a period of 35 years. A few weeks ago while on hols in the vicinity I photographed as many detector boxes and rodding arrangements at Scarborough as I could (interesting mix there showing several decades of history in itself) and some poeople thought I was mad when I was taking pictures of semaphore signals etc in my own area back in the 1960s - they're all long gone of course. A local point machine has just been replaced - fortunately I have pictures of the one that has been there for almost 30 years, I've now also got pics of its replacement. Some things I just haven't bothered with over the years - and of course they have vanished too - just like everything will over time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 This is the lattice assembly jig (symmetric about the mid point) for the signal bridge shown in the drawing earlier in the thread. I've covered the building and use of these jigs before, so there's not a lot more to say other than this. I've read a few comments on here about accuracy 'what's the odd millimetre or two, here and there' or 'near enough is good enough'. Well when making these things then it isn't; it's nowhere near good enough; it's not even in the right parish! These jigs are made to within .2 mm (0.008"), they have to be otherwise the lattice girder sides simply don't line up and the sections themselves are all over the place. The dividers are cut from a single strip of card and, as they are almost square (8.25 mm x 8.00 mm) the longest dimension on each is marked to ensure uniformity. I cannot stress enough that this is all about accuracy; in my view the whole hobby is about accuracy, if we really are to achieve that realism of the prototype. The significance of the black paint is nothing more than aiding sighting. The posts are shown in their housings on the jig but not fully moved to their position, just to show how this all works. So on the top 'L' angle one leg faces out, on the bottom 'L' angle one leg faces in. All held in place by a few pieces of cardboard. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 I've covered the building and use of these jigs before, so there's not a lot more to say other than this. I've read a few comments on here about accuracy 'what's the odd millimetre or two, here and there' or 'near enough is good enough'. Well when making these things then it isn't; it's nowhere near good enough. "it'll do" just wont do Mike! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolland Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Ah! Scarborough Falsgrave. Perhaps you might find this rather old link to my layout interesting in relation to this thread. The layout is very much alive and still under development; see photo 2 in particular. http://www.rmweb.co....php?f=9&t=29012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulr1949 Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Earlier in this thread I saw a mention of the signals at Falsgrave being replaced. Wish I'd known that in May, when I stayed at Pickering for 2 nights to ride the NYMR! Never mind, I'm lucky enough to be a retired (early) railwayman, so I used my pass last week to go Kings Cross-York, bus to Pickering, train to Whitby, bus to Scarborough, wander round the station taking a few photos and admiring the signals. Had to see them before demolition. Sat on the longest seat in the sun - the train from Liverpool was replatformed into platform 1, all very nice. It was interesting to notice that Londesborough Road station platforms are still there - somewhat overgrown, even though unused for 20+ (?) years. Bought an excellent book from Bellcode publications whilst at Pickering - York to Scarborough, Whitby and Ryedale, which has lots of background and exudes atmosphere. Dolland - I admire your layout, what a fabulous area to model. Some updates would be great. Mind you, I can't talk - I've not touched my layout since the weekend (well its too hot in the shed anyway!) 2 photos attached Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted July 1, 2010 Author Share Posted July 1, 2010 Ah! Scarborough Falsgrave. Perhaps you might find this rather old link to my layout interesting in relation to this thread. The layout is very much alive and still under development; see photo 2 in particular. http://www.rmweb.co....php?f=9&t=29012 Oh I certainly do find this interesting. I note from one of your captions, that you haven't yet added the signal bridge at Falsgrave - in fact in the 1950's/60's there were several huge signal bridges, apart form falsgrave, in this area. I've just completed the 4mm drawing of the Falsgrave signal bridge, though as it appeared in 1950. That said, apart from the change to the route indicator, the removal of the up distants and one doll which was replaced with a tubular one and a few other sundry changes, the drawing pretty well represents the basic layout and dimensions of the thing as it is now. I wonder, do you have any track layout details of the prototype, ideally in the 1950's/60's before the rationalisations took place? Here's the completed drawing of the Falsgrave signal bridge as it was in 1950. The next ones to be tackled will be the bridges which stood at the down and up ends of Londesborough Road Station, followed by the one which stood at Washbeck. Some of these were well over seventy feet span and still carried slotted posts and lower quadrants, well into the 1960's or even beyond. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted July 7, 2010 Author Share Posted July 7, 2010 So after all of this measuring and drawing - and there are another five large signal bridges to do for Scarborough - it's time to make some progress on the last of the Hessle Haven signal bridges. This model is very much a background project to the building and converting of some locos, so progress is necessarily a little slow. Anyway, the first of the lattice girders is now out of the jig and ready for its diagonals to be fitted. Already, this structure is very strong and wll not bend at all under normal loadings. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolland Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 Hi Mikemeg My modelling skills do not allow me to create the gorgeous array of signals and signal gantries that festooned the approaches to Scarborough in the 50's and 60's. I must resign myself with bashing an assortment of Ratio and MSE kits. I have copies of the signal box diagrams for Falsgrave and Washbeck which I bought years ago at either York or Warley. These have been drawn up by someone initialled JJF in 1968 and are some of my prized possessions - along with the books by Robin Lidster; I hope the detail is of interest to you. You may also know of the following development, especially the section entitled 'associated documents'.: http://planning.scar...searchtype=SPEC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted July 8, 2010 Author Share Posted July 8, 2010 Hi Mikemeg My modelling skills do not allow me to create the gorgeous array of signals and signal gantries that festooned the approaches to Scarborough in the 50's and 60's. I must resign myself with bashing an assortment of Ratio and MSE kits. I have copies of the signal box diagrams for Falsgrave and Washbeck which I bought years ago at either York or Warley. These have been drawn up by someone initialled JJF in 1968 and are some of my prized possessions - along with the books by Robin Lidster; I hope the detail is of interest to you. You may also know of the following development, especially the section entitled 'associated documents'. Hi Dolland, Hey, my modelling skills didn't extend to building these either, at least not until I tried. Now, though they are not yet 'like falling off a log' they are relatively straightforward to build. After I've finished the last of the big signal installations for Hessle Haven, then I will build all of the signals which stood between Scarborough Gasworks and Scarborough Central, including the monster which stood by the roundhouse in Scarborough MPD. This is likely to be a two year project, given that I still want to continue to build models for Hessle Haven, not least more locomotives. I would love to see this Falsgrave signal bridge actually find a working home i.e. the NYMR, so that we can all see it in an environment where it belongs - actually signalling trains - even if it is reduced in span. For this one is very nearly the last one left; there will never be any more. PS. My sizing calculations (guesses!) came up with a total length, over the decking, of 64' 9" (259 mm in 4 mm). The submitted plan shows a total length, over the decking of 19.65 metres - 64' 6" (258 mm in 4mm) or 19.4 metres (63' 8") over the lattice work, including the end posts. So this sizing process can get pretty close! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallows Close Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I would love to see this Falsgrave signal bridge actually find a working home i.e. the NYMR, so that we can all see it in an environment where it belongs - actually signalling trains - even if it is reduced in span. Hi Mike and Dolland, I have mixed feelings about moving the bridge up to Grosmont. True, the bridge will be preserved - but the signalling arrangements carried upon it will bear no resemblence to how it is now. Is it not better to move it somewhere (say Scarborough Platform 1) where it can be seen and enjoyed exactly as it used to be? As long as it can be saved - and I believe it should be - then we should at least be grateful for that. Cheers, Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted July 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2010 Is it not better to move it somewhere (say Scarborough Platform 1) where it can be seen and enjoyed exactly as it used to be? Over a working railway ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Over a working railway ? Absolutely no way can it be used as an "Exhibit" over a working railway. I also have it on good authority it is little more then a "Rust Bucket", witness the "Not to be Climbed" notices etc. Mick Nicholson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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