Hornby 2011 Announcements

[JZ]

One odd thing: the "Brighton Belle" driving cars are supposed to be run with three trailers, available as separate coaches only. There are many "new" Pullmans announced this year but none are specified as the suitable trailer cars for the BB. One Pullman expert has given details of their use on another internet site and none are shown as "Brighton Belle" cars.

 

The BB trailers were:

 

First class: Hazel, Doris, Gwen, Mona, Vera, Audrey.

Third class: Car numbers 85-87.

 

Does this mean that, despite the hype, the BB is not a fully accurate model?

 

JE

I think you will find these are covered in the section at the top about the BB. The cars further down the list are unconnected with the BB announcement.

[dibber25]

I would hazard a guess that Tornado's super detail and railroad models will only share the chassis and tender frames. (quote)

 

I've no need to hazard guesses. MR staff have seen and handled the model and we were told quite clearly at Broadstairs that the model we were shown - and which we photographed for the next issue of MR - is the RAILROAD model. It is exceptionally well detailed for a RAILROAD model but the 'standard' range version will have superior lining and decoration. Our understanding is that will be the only difference, but do read the report in MR as Ben took a lot more notes about what was said, and he has written the report.

 

was there any inkling of support for the A1 Trust from the sale of the models? (quote)

The A1 Trust is a business and I would strongly suspect there is a licensing agreement involved - just as there would be with NRM for Flying Scotsman products - but that will be confidential business information.

 

CHRIS LEIGH

[7013]

All that froth and no coffee, I have trawled through the announcements to find some positives but for me there is nothing for me to really get excited about, looking at the pictures of Tornado I hope they are not of the actual model as the tender appears to be trailing two wagons behind! Is there going to be any other Skaledale? again a lost opportunity. My summary to date would be that there is precious little for the serious modeller and a huge shift to the trainset market, Hornby appear to have taken a conscious decision to leave the serious stuff to Bachmann, Dapol and the small retailers who can all profit from this apparent shift in market strategy. I know Hornby are not only railways and perhaps in these economically uncertain times they have aligned their railway products with the rest of their products. Will Hornby regret this? have they made a mistake? only their financial figures will tell in the coming quarters. If I were Bachmann et al. I would be rubbing my hands together, Bachmann have already got a head start in the market with Tornado with most of those who were going to buy it having done so, it will be interesting to see if Bachmann rush through re-liveried models to take the sting out of the Hornby version ( what will the pricing differences be?). Bachmann I suspect will not mind losing the B1 they have lots of other Splitters that they can work on..It adds spice to the forthcoming Dapol and Bachmann announcements.

[trisonic]

Wouldn't "serious modellers" be making their own stuff?

No, I'm not putting my hand up as one either......................my wife gave me a SD60M (with sound and all the gizmos) for Christmas. It is exquisite in BNSF though BN livery but the handrails were so delicate that I destroyed two by just looking at them but these HO models are a great antidote to OO and its' inbuilt limitations of scale.

 

In good humo(u)r, Pete.

[stewartingram]

Well I looked in yesterday morning, I admit I was a little surprised at the A! & B1 initially, though upon reflection I feel it is a VERY GOOD year for Hornby and for us. I think a lot of us are overlooking the fact that Hornby, though a well-known brand name, taken at face value in the same way as Hoover is to vacuum cleaners, is not a massive company. And it isn't really Hornby I suppose, having swapped names from Traing after taking over Hornby-Dublo! Yes a big name but they have bought up other (failing) companies at an astonishing rate in recent times. Hence the shareholders do want returns on their investment, only right, Hornby are there to make a profit. Just think for a moment, where are their outlets? (They don't sell to modellers remember, just to the retail outlets...). Their customers are either High St. toyshops or "proper" modelshops. Look at the ratio of one to the other - how often do we RMWebbers complain about lack of modelshops? So the bulk of sales must go to the toy end of the market, and I think you will find also most modelshops rely om mass turnover to support specialist items? The proportion of "railway modellers" who are "rtr buyers" in reality must be high, so "finescale buyers" are a niche market. Hence I feel the 2011 mix of A1/B1/4-4-0's etc are a very wise commercial move on Horny's part. Good luck to them & be thankful for what we have.

[Matt]

Notice in this thread a couple of references to the unannounced 67 in EWS, DB Schenker and Wrexham & Shropshire being listed on ehattons. Just noticed this morning that this is also listed at Kernow's website in the Hornby 2011 range. Listed in three liveries at RRPs well over £100 and due in 4Q. At this price (and with three liveries - I can't think of many relieveries running to three versions this year), surely this must be an all new tooling?? So why not in Hornby's announcement? Was this a cunning plan to keep us talking about 2011 releases for longer :-)

 

M

[Coombe Barton]

http://www.Hornby.co...le,117,HIN.html

 

I'm a church musician so I have every church Hornby has made so far, and will get this one, but just wondering why there are no regular side windows on the Baptist Church.

SWMBO and I have been looking at the architectural styles associated with nonconformist buildings. Whilst in the various persuasions of Methodism (Wesleyan, Primitive, Bible Christian, Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion, Teetotal and many others) there seems to have been some commonality of architectural style within regions, with Baptists the style seems to be more independent. With all nonconformist communities it really did depend on the wealth of that community the style of building that they could afford. What is common, across all self-funded religions developments, is the use of gifted land. Some of these were on extensive plots, but commonly for the smaller buildings the gift was of land that could not be used for other purposes, which we have termed "The unwanted piece of land". This could be the corner of a field, the junction of two trackways, the wasteland, the exposed site where no one wanted to live. In addition , in towns and villages there is the re-use of the small residential site, maybe a cottage had fallen down, that sort of thing. For this type of site it looks to have been 'build the biggest building you can'

 

If there were neighbouring buildings then you built up close, so you wouldn’t have gone to the expense of putting windows that only saw another wall and did not admit any light. We don’t consider that there’s any justification, from any religious reason, for not putting light gathering opening (i.e. windows) where you could.

 

If we knew the provenance of this building it would help. It may be that they’ve taken an extant building and based the model on that, even if the neighbouring building against the blind wall had disappeared. This is the only explanation we can offer.

[Gwiwer]

(They don't sell to modellers remember, just to the retail outlets...).

 

I read this as "Hornby don't sell .....".

 

Yes they do. Though you will pay full price plus shipping for your direct-ordered items rather than taking advantage of retailer discounts. Here --> http://www.Hornby.com/brands/

[edcayton]

OK, here we go!

Firstly, on prices. Kernow announced price rises of around 10% for Bachmann and Hornby in addition to the VAT rise. Do the prices in this thread reflect this?

 

I wonder how many people are like me and have rather Catholic tastes ie buy what they like/remember? I don't consider myself a collector, but I'm not a "serious" modeller either. I'd like to be, and keep telling myself I will be one day. I'm fairly strict on period, and yes it is BR circa 1960 which does seem to be flavour of the month with the manufacturers at the moment.

 

What I am suggesting is that people (not me) will buy the Belle because they like or remember it or both. It makes lots of sense to sell the trailers separately because (and say this quietly) people may run only 4 or even 3 car rakes! I've got room for 4 coaches and a loco, so would probably only run 4 coaches as a unit.

 

I agree with most of what's been said about Tornado, and can understand that Hornby probably couldn't afford NOT to do it. I don't agree with those who say Hornby only do big and glamorous-look at the L1, T9, M7 and indeed the B1. I'd rather have seen a K1 though.

 

Wagons-they heve been slated for their wagons,and now they are going to produce better ones they ara being slated again! In the same way they respond to the call for LNER suburban coaches, and are told thay've done the wrong ones!

 

I would very much like some BR mk1 non-corridor to replace my ancient Tri-ang ones, but both Bachmann and Replica seem to have the bits to produce them, so why would Hornby risk it?

 

I have other thoughts, but enough is sufficient fo now.

 

All the best to those going "cold turkey"

 

Ed

[Gwiwer]

Kernow announced price rises of around 10% for Bachmann and Hornby in addition to the VAT rise. Do the prices in this thread reflect this?

 

The prices I quoted are taken from Kernow's site, so I would expect that this is indeed the case, except where clearly indicated in one case that it is a Hattons price.

[CUTLER2579]

Wagons-they heve been slated for their wagons,and now they are going to produce better ones they ara being slated again! In the same way they respond to the call for LNER suburban coaches, and are told thay've done the wrong ones!

 

It was a no win situation for them as if they had of announced Thompsons then the other half would have been clammering for Gresleys.

 

As for the B1 there were over 400 of these and the Bachmann/Replica one is seriously out of date.Should sell well and good luck to them as the V2 Should be next from someone.

 

Tornado. I AM SPEECHLESS.

[dibber25]

Bachmann have already got a head start in the market with Tornado with most of those who were going to buy it having done so, (quote)

 

Not in Hornby's market, they haven't already done so, and that's the whole point. As for price - we were told £70.

CHRIS LEIGH

[papagolfjuliet]

Having now had a chance to look at the Kernow site, to see pricing, the Tornado could be a shrewd move on Hornby's part.

 

The special edition R3070 is, I take it the fully detailed, all singing all dancing model - at an RRP of £92.99 its a steal. They dont show the Railroad model, but if its at a similar price to the evening star 9F, its RRP will be £64.99, or maybe a little higher at £69.99 - excellent value when compared to the Bachmann A1 at £129.

 

But then the question has to be asked, if they can produce an all-singing Tornade for £92.99 - why do they charge £20 or £30 more for similar quality other steam models? Unless R3070 is the Railroad model, in which case its over priced by at least £20. And if the details arent as good as expected, to meet the £92.99 price point, whats the point of duplicating?

 

I can understand duplicating something in a different way, eg creating a Railroad Tornado at a bargain price - its a different market. Likewise the B1 isnt a duplicate - the existing Bachmann model IS quite dated, its not like they've announced an LMS 7F or something is it?

 

The one thing I cant understand from a marketing point of view, is the duplicate sup-detailed Tornado, going against the Bachmann model. I dont think theres even the excuse that they had been planning it for some time when Bachmann announced their model?

 

Hattons are now listing the Railroad version at £62; less than half the price of Bachmann's. I know of at least one nagged parent who would have been very grateful of a sixty quid 'Tornado' last year.

 

The bells and whistles version in the train pack makes sense to me as it will undoubtedly be sold in catalogue shops and department stores to sectors of the market which Bachmann does not reach. Like the Tri-ang 'Rocket', many will probably end up in display cabinets rather than on layouts.

 

So long as Hornby only make 'Tornado' and do not start to produce other A1s then I think it hard to accuse them of playing dirty pool against Bachmann and, as far as the B1 is concerned, you could argue that Hornby are only doing to Bachmann what Bachmann have just done to Dapol in N. In any case, it's swings and roundabouts: people who don't want to spend £120 on the Hornby B1 can have the Bachmann one for sixty.

 

Why Hornby have bothered with the Lima 'Warship' or that new BR brake van, on the other hand, is a complete mystery to me.

[S.A.C Martin]

I would hazard a guess that Tornado's super detail and railroad models will only share the chassis and tender frames. (quote)

 

I've no need to hazard guesses. MR staff have seen and handled the model and we were told quite clearly at Broadstairs that the model we were shown - and which we photographed for the next issue of MR - is the RAILROAD model. It is exceptionally well detailed for a RAILROAD model but the 'standard' range version will have superior lining and decoration. Our understanding is that will be the only difference, but do read the report in MR as Ben took a lot more notes about what was said, and he has written the report.

 

Fair enough. I stand corrected. So where exactly does the Tornado model stand in the detail stakes against the super detail A3 and A4? It sounds (and looks in the pics) too detailed for the railroad range if we consider the vast majority of models in there are older toolings with less separate detail.

 

was there any inkling of support for the A1 Trust from the sale of the models? (quote)

The A1 Trust is a business and I would strongly suspect there is a licensing agreement involved - just as there would be with NRM for Flying Scotsman products - but that will be confidential business information.

 

CHRIS LEIGH

 

Fair enough again. Thank you for your prompt responses, Mr Leigh. Much appreciated.

[Pennine MC]

The Brighton Belle ... The two motors (one of which is a dummy) at an RRP £184.48 or £202.00 DCC-fitted ... [plus] ... three trailers separately at a currently-undisclosed price but probably in the region of £40 each RRP.

 

We stand to have a superb and oft-requested unit but at an RRP of around £300.

 

 

 

I quoted £41.75 RRP for the existing Pullmans in the 'speculation' thread, I doubt they'll be less than that. That would make the DCC variant weigh in at £327.25 - the ball park figure I floated in a pub conversation on Christmas Eve was £325. Even the non-DCC is appreciably over £300, which again I predicted. Sorry, I'm just being a clever git here

 

From the more serious modeller's viewpoint, this is a model which is a cut above most of the railroad range and will be offered in the standard range also, with superior decoration. That, in itself is an interesting insight - it's clearly the decoration which adds to the cost of a model - perhaps more than we'd imagined.

 

 

I sincerely would love to find out why that extra couple of stripes of lining or similar makes such a difference.

 

 

It's a very intersting point Simon, because for ever and a day we've been told that undecorated models aren't commercially practical because the decoration is such a small part of the total cost

 

- The BR Brake Van. Yes the Bachmann model is extremely good but for me it's not definitive - as well as the handrails the gaps between planking are a little bit too pronounced. It is possible the Hornby model will be an improvement, if so for me I have no problem with a better model of such an iconic and widespread vehicle.

 

The BR 20T brake van makes perfect sense to me. There were many minor variations on these and, regardless of Bachmann having a good model, Hornby need a standard brake van to include in their bread-and-butter train sets. Imagine the problems for train set buyers if they bought a Hornby goods set with no brake van then had to try to find a dealer who actually had the rival Bachmann version in stock. No. Hornby had to have a brake van and if the current moulds are getting beyond their use-by date, it makes sense to develop a new version of the same thing.

 

 

 

They did have to have one, I agree, but it didnt have to be a BR standard that's identical in almost every significant way to the Bachmann one. Yes, there are lots of variations - but what evidence do we have that Hornby will be interested in tackling them? I n fact I'd doubt they even know about them - the model pictured admittedly has plate axleboxes rather than split (although hidden behind the running boards of a brakevan, such distinctions are pretty academic even to folk such as me) - but I'd strongly suspect that's because their previous models have had such boxes and not because it's a conscious decision to model a different variation.

 

That said, I dont have a problem with them doing it per se, just that as I've already said, I dont think they'll sell boatloads at twice the price of the Bachy one

 

Wagons-they heve been slated for their wagons,and now they are going to produce better ones they ara being slated again!

 

 

The point that I've made Ed (I cant speak for others) is not just about improving the quality of individual models, but providing a more thought-out and useful range. What evidence do we have of the latter, other than a half-reported hint of something that somebody read in REx?

 

The root problem as I see it is a lack of real insight into the subject, leading to choices that are largely either bizarre or unimaginative - even the tippler, which I'm actually quite pleased about, is only an upgrade of a variant they already do. Contrast that with Bachmann, who have not one but three distinct variants of the steel bodied High Goods imminent

[edcayton]

Is it likely that the NRM, the A1 Trust or anyone else for that matter would be able to INSIST on a licensing deal for someone to produce a model of a real world prototype (as opposed to a character such as "Thomas") ?

 

Ed

[andyman7]

There's and interesting debate going on here between those who advocate that if a duplicate or near duplicate model is tooled it somehow means that another worthy investment decision has been missed, and those that recognise that we are dealing with sizeable commercial companies that have to stand or fall by their investment decisons, as well as being in competition with each other. Whilst we all recognise that, especially amongst the RMWeb community, there is wide product awareness and a high level of information (what economists would call Rational Customers), both Bachmann and Hornby have a much wider penetration, into a world where brand equity and perception make big impacts on sales. I'm pretty sure which Warship everyone using this site would buy if they have £50 in their pocket, but that won't neccessarily hold true in Hamleys.

 

In these tough times, if you have £100k available for R&D and your own market analysis and information suggests that making 'Tornado' will produce, say a 15% return whilst making an LNWR Claughton will manage 5%, then I'm afraid we have to accept market realities. If that means taking sales from a competitor, then that's capitalism. Bachmann may be more of a niche brand here, but look at the US and the positions are more than reversed - Hornby need to use their market power and brand equity where they have it.

 

We need to recognise that this economic model has delivered us more variety and quality then we have ever known before. This is not to say that everything is perfect, there are still plenty of 'opportunities' to meet the unsatisfied needs of enthusiasts - but I would suggest that the current competitive situation brings as many benefits as frustrations and would be wary of wishing for different without being aware of the consequences.

[papagolfjuliet]

I note incidentally that a potentially useful new freelance diesel shunter (which seems to be the 06 cab and running plate with a flat bonnet) has crept into the 'Thomas' range.

[S.A.C Martin]

Is it likely that the NRM, the A1 Trust or anyone else for that matter would be able to INSIST on a licensing deal for someone to produce a model of a real world prototype (as opposed to a character such as "Thomas") ?

 

Ed

 

Yes, definitely - go over to the class 70 thread and read up on Freightliner's (superb) handling of the Bachmann R&D and production.

 

I note incidentally that a potentially useful new freelance diesel shunter (which seems to be the 06 cab and running plate with a flat bonnet) has crept into the 'Thomas' range.

 

It's based on the 06 chassis, but the body and cab are all new tooling. Look carefully at the side windows and door - they don't match. Dart's "prototype" in the upcoming special is based on an HNRC industrial 0-6-0. The Hornby model omits the wheel arrangement and rear bonnet in this case. Overall, mind - the possibility for a freelance diesel, as you say, very enticing.

[edcayton]

Someone said earlier that Bachmann are the bigger player in the international market and I'm sure that is so. However, I would imagine that the international market for funny scale (ie OO) models of quaint British prototypes outside these shores must be pretty limited. It would be interesting to know what sort of oversales sales are acheived by the likes of Hattons etc.

 

Ed

 

BTW on QI they said that there are so many exceptions to the "i before e" rule that it is not taught any more.

[gc4946]

I've also checked Hattons' forthcoming items part of their website and it seems high-windowed olive green liveried Maunsells are also listed, I deduced that from the fact they've been given new product codes (not suffixed):

R4506 SR Maunsell Corr. 3rd Class High Window

R4507 SR Maunsell Corr. 1st Class High Window

R4508 SR Maunsell Corr. Composite High Window

R4509 SR 4 Compartment 3rd Class High Window

R4510 SR 6 Compartment 3rd Class Brake High Window

R4511 SR 3rd Class Brake Composite

 

There are also gaps in the R3XXX series presumably for commissions and for future announcements. As with the 67s I think Hornby's held the Maunsells back from the 2011 catalogue because of production problems and may be announced later on this year if and when the production situation improves.

[frobisher]

Why Hornby have bothered with the Lima 'Warship' or that new BR brake van, on the other hand, is a complete mystery to me.

 

On the first it's simple - Hornby did not have a Warship in their range, now they do. I'd have thought the 31 would have been more mysterious as they already have one in their range..?

 

The second iis as simple. It's a bread and butter item, often previously duplicated and Hornby were already on the 4th or 5th iteration of theirs (at least!).

[The Stationmaster]

 

(regarding brakevans and wagons)

 

They did have to have one, I agree, but it didnt have to be a BR standard that's identical in almost every significant way to the Bachmann one. Yes, there are lots of variations - but what evidence do we have that Hornby will be interested in tackling them? I n fact I'd doubt they even know about them - the model pictured admittedly has plate axleboxes rather than split (although hidden behind the running boards of a brakevan, such distinctions are pretty academic even to folk such as me) - but I'd strongly suspect that's because their previous models have had such boxes and not because it's a conscious decision to model a different variation.

 

That said, I dont have a problem with them doing it per se, just that as I've already said, I dont think they'll sell boatloads at twice the price of the Bachy one

 

The point that I've made Ed (I cant speak for others) is not just about improving the quality of individual models, but providing a more thought-out and useful range. What evidence do we have of the latter, other than a half-reported hint of something that somebody read in REx?

 

The root problem as I see it is a lack of real insight into the subject, leading to choices that are largely either bizarre or unimaginative - even the tippler, which I'm actually quite pleased about, is only an upgrade of a variant they already do. Contrast that with Bachmann, who have not one but three distinct variants of the steel bodied High Goods imminent

 

 

I suppose it could be said that if they are going to improve their wagons they have to start somewhere - so a brakevan is logical (is the one chosen a consequence of some wish list poll type thing I wonder, the sort where folk seem to vote for stuff which is already in existence to quite a high standard?).

But having said that the tippler seems a very strange choice unless the old tool is knackered or is the most easily 'adjusted' one - in which case it makes some sort of sense as far as investment is concerned even if it is not the cleverest marketing idea. And definitely no considered approach to producing a range of improved wagons in the way that Hornby-Dublo did with the SD range, maybe they've decided they simply can't compete in that way? And overall there does seem to be an emphasis on curbing tooling costs - with a few exceptions - and limiting higher cost production work such as adding detail and lining etc (e.g no singleton 'Castles') which we know must push up costs, even if 'they' say it doesn't.

[tim-minay]

dont know if anyone could help,

 

but how do you know if the railroad stuff will be DCC ready???

 

thanks

[papagolfjuliet]

The second iis as simple. It's a bread and butter item, often previously duplicated and Hornby were already on the 4th or 5th iteration of theirs (at least!).

 

This is I think the third: there was the underlength Tri-ang one which is still available in the Railroad and 'Thomas' ranges, and the early 1980s one which was in the main range until last year and whose main failing was the overscale woodgrain effect. It was past its best, but I doubt whether the new tooling is a worthwhile investment given that Bachmann one is a superb model and will be cheaper. As has been said already, a replacement for the ex-Dapol LMS van would probably have been a better bet.