RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted March 31, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2011 What I really really need to do is get some extruded poly and confirm how rigid it is. Regards I just went out to the garage and found a couple of bits of Knauf Space Board (pink foam) These were offcuts1200mm long x 150mm x 50mm. By using the two bits of foam (not even glued together) I made a "bridge" 1200 x 150 x 100 on a couple of bricks. With the bricks at the end my weight caused it to bend. With the bricks 600mm apart I could stand on the middle. I'm about 90kg. I started off using a plywood base and sides and filling the "case" with styrofoam. When one of these survived some bad parking in the garage I have moved on to plywood-less boards. If I had to transport them I'd probably add some thin ply to the edges or corners though. I use Evo Stik "solvent free" grab adhesive. Hope this helps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 PS Thanks, Kelly. I'm an unrepentant Macophile because I'm a musician and all the best recording software is for the Mac without any right clicks required.......... Best, Pete. You're welcome Pete always happy to help with techy computer things (its what I do most of the time anyhow). My use of Macs is also for musical needs, but I've yet to get anywhere/start with anything cos of health. You get used to the trackpad/single button over time I find though. Kelly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 You're welcome Pete always happy to help with techy computer things (its what I do most of the time anyhow). My use of Macs is also for musical needs, but I've yet to get anywhere/start with anything cos of health. You get used to the trackpad/single button over time I find though. Kelly I love the Macbooks track pad, mines set for 2 finger tap for right click and two finger drag to scroll. Works a treat, however I NEVER use the magic mice, Mac's will accept any mice and recognise the right click just fine. So IMO best solution for mac's with mice is to replace the silly Mac 'thing' with a decent proper USB rodent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_bear Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 My entire layout is built from 50 mm Space board (knaufboard) and 25mm Jablite polystyrene. The only wooden bits are trestles from IKEA. I have five Spaceboards glued together. I have cut some batons out of spaceboard and stuck them underneath for support (and to hold the cables) but it does not really need it. I had to keep things light so I can lift the layout on its side (it is in the garage). This I can do (even with the scenery in place) although I have not yet secured the buildings. Anything delicate, I have made removable. Rounding the corners of the boards helps against knocks. I have some images on this thread (Modern image terminus) of the work in progress. I only recently found out about using cocktail sticks to help the glueing process (use No More Nails and Copydex). As I have said in the thread, it is more of a fun layout than anything ultra realistic. http://www.rmweb.co....us/page__st__25 P.S. Love the built in track pad on the Mac - always needed to use mice on PCs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 Thanks for the further thoughts. Very interesting load testing info Tony S and since I would have no requirement to support anything like 90kg over 60cm or even 20kg over 1.2m it becomes very clear that this stuff possesses some almost ideal qualities. I am gradually forming up a structure in my minds eye. I'll sketch it and post it here some time but for now words will have to do : - thinking of using 50mm foam partly to assist with gradient/clearance issues and partly because I suspect 100mm is over-engineering. - 3 or 6mm ply to protect and reinforce the sides - 12mm ply on the ends to provide rigid panel for abutting to next section - in terms of joining sections the end pieces will be flush to the top (obviously) but oversize to the sides and bottom edge. This will enable bolts to run through end panels from abutting sections thereby clamping the sections together - thinking of rebating a slot in the 12mm end sections so that the 3mm sides slot in - might, but probably won't, put timber into nothces in the corners of the foam to further rinfoce and to give something the 3mm sides could be tacked to - might oversize the 3mm sides to conceal wiring beneath but will vary approach here depending on whether one level is above another and consequent access issues - pre-fixed bus bars for dropper wiring for each section - will experiment with cork for trackbed - whole idea is that everything can be pre-assembled in the workshop rather than worked on in situ. That said the cork layer and actual track would be done in situ Finally a question for Black Bear - IKEA trestles look like a big time saver but don't you find the 70cm height is too low? rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_bear Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I am a shortie so don't really find the height of the trestles a problem. They are quite cheap (£6) so I can put up with a bit of discomfort when working underneath the board.! I have also used cork (1/8 inch sheets from Charles Cantrill) glued with Copydex - which I have found to be the best glue as it is much quicker drying than no more nails or PVA (although I used No more nails and Copydex for gluing the five boards together) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian335 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Hi Kallaroonian, I'm a newbie here but have used foam encased in 3" x 1" timber framing. The plan was to make a 2 board shunting layout possibly for exhibition. It stalled after the first board but I found laying track direct on foam underlay stuck down with PVA to be a good way to go. PVA seems to stick the foam together quite happily, given adequate time. Cutting holes for point motors is a piece of cake with a scalpel and a knitting needle or similar is useful for dropper wires to the main power bus. Underneath I've used cool hot glue for gluing down the wiring. Legs will be bolted to the timber frame. This was inspired by a visit to Ormesby Hall up north - have a look at http://www.ormesbyhallmrg.co.uk/Skaledale/Skaledale.php . Hope this helps. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Well I finally have a couple of styrofoam boards to experiment with. I'll post up the results in due course rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Your recipe from the post before last looks really sensible to me! One structural point is that the side pieces not only protect the edges, but are also a part of the board's resistance to flexing - 50mm Styrofoam etc. will flex if unsupported over ~2-4 feet, maybe not under its own weight, but definitely if you lean on it a little. The side pieces should counteract this just like they do on a more traditional "plywood box" board, and they can be quite thin and still provide this benefit. By the way I always equate the term "Styrofoam" with "Expanded Polystyrene" - neither of these are the same as the rigid "Pink Foam" insulation boards. Styrofoam is the trade name of the blue extruded polystyrene board produced by Dow Corning. I think there's more confusion about this in the US and Canada because you have "styrofoam cups" which are, oddly enough, not made from Styrofoam Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted July 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2011 Here's the method used to fix point motors (Conrad). Your recipe from the post before last looks really sensible to me! One structural point is that the side pieces not only protect the edges, but are also a part of the board's resistance to flexing - 50mm Styrofoam etc. will flex if unsupported over ~2-4 feet, maybe not under its own weight, but definitely if you lean on it a little. The side pieces should counteract this just like they do on a more traditional "plywood box" board, and they can be quite thin and still provide this benefit. Further to this, we've found that the addition of diagonal bracing is well worth the extra effort. The boards that we've made so far that have it, it's almost impossible to twist the them. 4mm ply is quite adequate for edge framing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 A couple of pictures of the prototype board during construction. I'm waiting for the glue to cure so I can test the rigidity ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Styrofoam is the trade name of the blue extruded polystyrene board produced by Dow Corning. And the pink extruded is a DuPont product. Same stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Still waiting on the glue............ ..........but does anyone have a view on what thickness of foam board would resist flexing without any side reinforcement? The board also comes in 60, 75 and 100mm thicknesses rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 You can reduce the need for side reinforcement if you laminate something on the top and bottom instead - so the foam ends up a bit like a middle ply in plywood. I've seen small boards made with the white expanded polystyrene laminated between two pieces of cardboard that were pretty strong, for mine I used thin MDF track bed on the top and an 18mm timber frame underneath - it's very solid. I have fascia boards as well but they're quite shallow as you can see: If you're using PVA to glue (my guess from the long curing time) then foam-to-foam joints are tricky since there's nowhere for the moisture to go. I found when laminating foam for scenery that roughing up the surfaces and running a zig-zag bead of glue gave enough of an air gap that at least some of the glue would go off, although from anecdotal evidence it might still be wet inside the joint. Foam-to-timber should be fine if the timber isn't sealed. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Will Thanks for the info. I'm using No More Nails Fast which is like No More Nails but water based and foam compatible whereas the original product has a turps solvent and is not foam compatible. This glue partly cures relatively quickly but the final cure seems to take quite a long time. The real delay for me is that I was doing one side of each trial board at a time so that I could use weights to keep the side reinforcement in place. My other two issues are weight and carpentry time. The weight issue is probably not critical but I'd rather keep it as low as possible given the whole layout is sat up in the loft where some areas are boarded more sturdily than others. I'm also very aware that the support structure is likely to weight a bit (more below). The carpentry time issue is simply related to trying to keep things as simple as possible - the layout I have in mind is big and the construction is daunting. In terms of the supports I'm feeling quite pleased that I've come across a way to make lightweight baseboards relatively easily but I'm still apprehensive re the support structures both in terms of their weight and the work required. I was looking at using aluminium profile parts as sold for workshops etc but it works out quite expensive. It is still tempting though. Eg like this http://www.linearbearings.com.au/Products/AluminiumBuildingSystem/tabid/92/Default.aspx If there are any smart ideas about support structures please let mew know ! Otherwise it's back to the dressed pine section..... rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancess Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Hi, I've used pink styrofoam from B&Q and used a sub-base of Gorm shelving from Ikea, shelves are 51cm wide, just right for 50cm foam panels. My layout is N Gauge and U-shaped, 11 feet with sides of 7 and 4 feet. Good luck with yours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Thanks for the IKEA tip. That might actually be a great idea. How did you set it up to provide height adjustability (or at least fine tuning thereof)? My layout is a vast undertaking in 00 although I will complete it in sections over time. So I have numerous support issues and definitely a requirement to adjust the board levels. But still, a sound basic structure ready to go in kit form would be a great start. An old post about the layout is here : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/22986-hatfield-part-the-second/page__p__230390__fromsearch__1#entry230390 Unless I return to my senses that is the plan. rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Hi, I've used pink styrofoam from B&Q and used a sub-base of Gorm shelving from Ikea, shelves are 51cm wide, just right for 50cm foam panels. My layout is N Gauge and U-shaped, 11 feet with sides of 7 and 4 feet. Good luck with yours. If they are free standing what support do you have for the shelving? Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancess Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Hi, Will post photos over the weekend so you can get some idea. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 Pete If you google ikea and check out their heavy duty secondary storage product menu option you'll see an enormous number of allegedly related items. but you can quickly figure out the basic "systems" they have. Three options when looking at the Perth Australia store - Gorm, Lilleby and Omar. Gorm is a pre-assembled wooden racking system that is free standing and has pre-drilled holes to allow the user to select shelf heights. Additional shelves and accessories are available. Typical unit weights 13kg or something (from memory) and can support 50kg Lilleby is a simple trestle which might suit some folks Omar is akin to a metal version of Gorm. Might be worth considering. I imagine that it is more rigid. Also it only weighs 6kg but can support 65.Not bothered about the support capacity but the lighter weight might be good. m There's still an issue with height adjustability but I think a basic structure from a kit is a big time saver. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancess Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Hi again, A couple of photos - baseboard height with foam is 45 inches.The whole lot including 2 shelves per span cost just over £100 and is very sturdy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Interesting photos thanks. It looks like you've cut down the gorm units at the front but retained the full length at the back? The primary difference compared with what I'm doing is that you have timber most or all of the way around (can't quite figure out what is happening in the corner) and then the foam is sitting on top. I presume the timber is adding to the structural strength of the whole assembly. In my case there is no underlying timber and the foam and plywood sides form a composite construction that has to be self supporting. The boards will then sit on appropriately sized supports using the power of gravity. Are the Gorm units fairly rigid when completely free-standing? I'm assuming they are at least OK. Really thinking of getting a couple at the weekend and experimenting - great tip thanks, could save me heaps of work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancess Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Interesting photos thanks. It looks like you've cut down the gorm units at the front but retained the full length at the back? The primary difference compared with what I'm doing is that you have timber most or all of the way around (can't quite figure out what is happening in the corner) and then the foam is sitting on top. I presume the timber is adding to the structural strength of the whole assembly. In my case there is no underlying timber and the foam and plywood sides form a composite construction that has to be self supporting. The boards will then sit on appropriately sized supports using the power of gravity. Are the Gorm units fairly rigid when completely free-standing? I'm assuming they are at least OK. Really thinking of getting a couple at the weekend and experimenting - great tip thanks, could save me heaps of work. Posts are available in 2 lengths here, longer ones at back for possible lighting. Whole structure is extremely stable especially if you use a miimum of 2 shelves per set of 4 posts. Corners come as a pair and will post photo in the hope you can see. Good luck if you decide to experiment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancess Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Just hoping photo is clear enough for you to get idea of corner assembly. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 Yes clear enough thanks, I get the gist. I went to Ikea this afternoon and the one thing they didn't have was Gorm in the size I wanted. Due in on Monday. Normal mode of operation for Ikea but still annoying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.