P4 - Finney 28xx Currently..

[craigwelsh]

Before I fit the tumblers and the clutches I wheel it up to check brake shoe clearances, the only thing I had to hand were wheels with Exactoscale parallel axles however which have too much slop in without washers between the bearings and wheels. I'll find some pinpoint ones that centre properly before I finish this off. Total time on this about 2 hours including procrastination and photos..

 

Hmm, I think this one will be going in the bin! I never was very happy with it and hence didn't bother finishing it though the supplied levers weren't long enough to account for the bending anyway.

 

Note how the lever guard is correctly spaced from the solebar, its actually held on by a vertical piece of etch in a hole drilled through into the body and the solebar can still be removed from behind it.

 

Before they just had the P4 wheels, now I think i've given them a P4 underframe to match .

[Adam]

Very nice, especially the lever guides, but I notice that the tie bars seem to be mounted behind rather than in front of the W-irons.

 

http://www.gallery6801.fotopic.net/p21160026.html

 

Adam

[craigwelsh]

Very nice, especially the lever guides, but I notice that the tie bars seem to be mounted behind rather than in front of the W-irons.

http://www.gallery6801.fotopic.net/p21160026.html

Adam

Yeah i'd have to pin them if I put them in front to get the rivet detail.. I suppose I should move them really and chop off the superglued Bill Bedford bit.

 

I need to remove those axleboxes too, the more I look at them the more i'm convinced they are definitely too big!

 

Once i've got around to drawing the BR open iron I can finish the full underframes with the built in tie bars.

 

[edit] Fixed it now.

 

 

[Adam]

Ah, much better

 

Adam

[iak]

Extraordinarily impressive Craig.

One has well and truly raised the bar with these etches.

The brake levers/guides are especially horny B)

[Captain Kernow]

Yeah i'd have to pin them if I put them in front to get the rivet detail.. I suppose I should move them really and chop off the superglued Bill Bedford bit

It is possible, with careful cutting and filing and even more careful soldering, to attach a tie bar to either end of the BB W iron, with only a very unobtrusive join...

 

These are just lovely, Craig, so I'll definitely have some as well, please!

[craigwelsh]

It is possible, with careful cutting and filing and even more careful soldering, to attach a tie bar to either end of the BB W iron, with only a very unobtrusive join...

 

These are just lovely, Craig, so I'll definitely have some as well, please!

Unfortunately Bill's bits aren't to scale, it'd be very obvious. The w-irons themselves are a bit out actually but I haven't got drawings yet of a BR cutout one to draw one exactly accurate. May have to go find one to take a rubbing of.

 

I'm hoping people will be able to get them at Scaleforum but I need to work out costings first.

[craigwelsh]

Lever guard folding instructions, let me know if they make sense, i've not subtracted the holes from the intermediate steps just in case anyone is confused!

 

I've ordered some sheets of bits now though they probably wont arrive for Railwells but before Scaleforum.

 

 

[Kempenfelt]

Hi Craig,

 

The diagrams look good to me! It's the same way that I folded up some of your test etches but I must admit it was quite hard to picture your written notes, these diagrams however are a vast improvement, no excuses for going wrong now!

[Tim Lewis]

Lever guard folding instructions, let me know if they make sense, i've not subtracted the holes from the intermediate steps just in case anyone is confused!

 

 

I don't understand how you get from picture 2 to picture 3, although it might become clearer if I had the etch in front of me. Maybe you need a couple more pictures (showing each fold rather than the result of several?)

[jwealleans]

I think it is only one fold... just below the top of picture 2 there's a half etched line visible.... fold through 180 degrees on that line.

[Tim Lewis]

I think it is only one fold... just below the top of picture 2 there's a half etched line visible.... fold through 180 degrees on that line.

 

A-ha! Now I see: it's obvious once you know. Thanks. (I think this shows the need for a few words to go with the pictures though).

[Kempenfelt]

I hope Craig doesn't mind me posting construction notes mk1 so here goes!

 

Don't clean up the tabs until after folded and soldered, try not to file off the cotter pin protrusion! Try not to bend anything more than twice to avoid it snapping.

 

Folds 1 and 2 make a u shape and then you can carefully fold 3 past 90deg before moving tweezer position to crimp the 2 halves together (hold the small bit when undertaking fold 1). You can tack solder this section together now if you wish.

 

Fold 4 has to be done before 5 where you have the 2nd 180deg. Fold 6&7 need to be done before 8 when you have a complete folded unit.

 

Hope that help's, its been a while since I made up some of the lever guards now and I can't remember if I had any additional comment's. If I can think of anything i'll post i here first!

[craigwelsh]

A-ha! Now I see: it's obvious once you know. Thanks. (I think this shows the need for a few words to go with the pictures though).

They should have numbers and arrows indicating the folds before and after but I didn't get that far the other night.. I'm still trying to find a way to export a picture from AutoCAD without it optimising badly though! Kempenfelt's notes would replicate these numbers.. I think i've changed the order of 8 and 5 though, I was previously doing the 180deg fold before the final 90deg.

 

My method is pretty tried and tested now with a large box of these made up and soldered for my use. I'll try and perfect getting it into instructions for others though. Frets should be turning up next week now which will be nice .

 

Right here we go, now with added numbers!

 

 

• NOTE: Clean up the lever guard after soldering when it is stronger and easier to work with.
  
• First fold 1, holding the small section with your tweezers and folding the larger part over, then fold 2 to form a 'U' shape (fig.2).
  
• Now you can carefully fold over 3 by holding the small section as it gets past 90deg and then crimp it with the tweezers to the full 180deg (fig.3). Be careful it doesn't ping off at this point! You can solder up this section at this time if you wish so that it doesn't move later.
  
• The 90 degree folds 4,5,6,7 are now undertaken (fig.4).
  
• To complete the lever guard you fold 8 through 180deg to finish. Some bends may need tweaking before final soldering to get the guard parallel.
  
• The stay can be adjusted depending on the kit its fitted to. Pin to wooden solebars with the attached spigot or metal solebars can either have a vertical piece of metal attached up into the body or on metal kits the guard can be soldered to the solebar giving the prototypical gap behind it in the web of the solebar.
  

[Tim Lewis]

Exemplary : even my cat could understand that, and she's not really into railway modelling. Nice one!

[craigwelsh]

Exemplary : even my cat could understand that, and she's not really into railway modelling. Nice one!

Excellent, thanks Tim. If anyone else has had a look too i'd appreciate some feedback otherwise i'll put these in a pdf as the instructions with this fret.

 

Hopefully finalise everything next week for some official supply .

[Barry Rhys]

Excellent, thanks Tim. If anyone else has had a look too i'd appreciate some feedback otherwise i'll put these in a pdf as the instructions with this fret.

 

Hopefully finalise everything next week for some official supply .

 

Hello Craig, I've been meaning to reply since you first posted the instructions, but I'm afraid instant responses are just not my line. Hope this isn't too late though.

 

Firstly I should say that I've been following this topic closely since you started it - yes, back on rmweb.co.uk/forum! - so I'm already very familiar with your etch designs. Very much looking forward to the final unveiling too.

 

However, I've been trying to look at your instructions from the point of view of someone who is not familiar with any of the forgoing, but who simply has the etch and the instructions (and, presumably, a wagon) before him. I don't mean someone who knows nothing of the prototype, but at least someone who may be uncertain of some of the prototype intricacies that you've included in your etch (for example the crimped brake lever retaining portion at point 3) which, in very many less detailed etched kits, are poorly represented or even left out.

 

So to fold the brake gear successfully, at least the first few times, I think the instructions are fairly essential. And to be honest, in spite of what Tim just said, I've got some reservations about those you've shown. Unfortunately, I don't have a cat to explain it all to me! (I could ask mi' wife, but...errr..) Actually I think Tim's initial response to Jonathan's explanation was very relevant: "A-ha! Now I see: it's obvious once you know." I fully agree - but the only source of 'obviousness' for most people are the instructions.

 

I think my biggest reservation arises from the nature of the source of the illustrations, which I assume is the same software program as you used to create the etch artwork? Am I correct in thinking that the red and blue 'layers' represent the 'front and back' surfaces for etching - so, for example, a half-etched groove in the red surface is evident by the blue base of the non-etched surface? I'm not sure how you intend to reproduce the instructions for the user, but even in colour and in the large format of the screen some of the grooves are barely evident (eg. grooves 1,2 & 5) because their narrowness means the blue bases are not visible in the isometric view. Also the contrast differences distinguishing between horizontal (eg. pale red) and vertical (darker red) surfaces will most likely not be apparent off-screen, so the folded surfaces themselves will not be so obvious.

 

When I first saw the illustrations, I did not at first realise that the blue and red were opposite surfaces of the same etch - some (most?) of you may see that as blindingly obvious! Still, that is fairly irrelevant in the first picture. But in the second picture, I could not see that the large blue vertical surface is simply the back of the part after folding around - to me the picture looks more like a red surface and a blue surface side by side - and the red horizontal groove (which later turns out to be the red base of groove 8) cutting through the blue surface actually appears to be part of the same plane as the main red surface, thereby "confirming" that the red and blue surfaces are side by side on the same plane! Then, the longer I looked at it, the more the red surface appeared to be a solid rectangular infill of the U-shaped blue structure (exactly as in the solid wooden infill between 2 adjacent brake pushrods). How could this be?? What was I on?! Exactly as with the many optical illusions you can find on the computer, you know it's not possible, but your brain won't let it go.

 

I hope I'm not over dramatising this. Christ, this is a brake lever guide we're discussing!

 

For me, I think nearly all of my difficulties are created by two key characteristics of the software 3D visualisation:

 

1. The red and blue 'front and back' surface representation necessary for the etching toolwork gives the impression of a layered structure, and sometimes of adjacent parts of separate pieces.

 

2. Most critically, the software represents only solid blocks of material, and does not represent edges (eg. edges of grooves and concave folds) as lines (as would be used in conventional drawing), but as borders of blocks of colour. So, for example, in picture 1 grooves 1 & 2 are only visible by the nick at the far end of the groove; in picture 2 the main red surface has become totally indistinguishable from groove 8; and in picture 4 the folds at grooves 2, 4 & 5 are distinguishable from a flat plane only by the pale/dark contrast of horizontal and vertical surfaces. Just imagine how this would be if printed in black and white!

 

For me, the solution would be very simple. By getting rid of the colour differentiation and layer representation, and by distinguishing all edges as lines (exactly as in a conventional black and white drawing), I think the confusions would disappear. The current views, numbering and notes should otherwise remain exactly as they are. The instructions would also be very easy to reproduce, either by printing out or by photocopying, also at a much reduced size. I realise that the software program probably cannot change its representation 'concept' like this - but actually you could do the work by hand on a tracing of a printout, without much effort.

 

Sorry to have gone on so long. I hope you won't see this as criticism, only as some feedback from an interested party. I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of others too, to see whether it's just me suffering from delusions, and whether I'm perhaps in the wrong hobby!

 

Thanks, Neil

[djparkins]

For me, the solution would be very simple. By getting rid of the colour differentiation and layer representation, and by distinguishing all edges as lines (exactly as in a conventional black and white drawing), I think the confusions would disappear. The current views, numbering and notes should otherwise remain exactly as they are. The instructions would also be very easy to reproduce, either by printing out or by photocopying, also at a much reduced size. I realise that the software program probably cannot change its representation 'concept' like this - but actually you could do the work by hand on a tracing of a printout, without much effort.

 

Sorry to have gone on so long. I hope you won't see this as criticism, only as some feedback from an interested party. I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of others too, to see whether it's just me suffering from delusions, and whether I'm perhaps in the wrong hobby!

 

Thanks, Neil

 

Hello Craig,

 

I have to agree with Neil, as quoted above.

 

I have struggled to understand the forming of this part over a couple of evenings now - and I say that as an etched kit manufacturer. For a while I even began to wonder if the blue area represented some kind of machined or cast block that you supplied to form the etched part around!

 

I think the solution does lie in Neil's suggestion. If the edges of the etched part were simply represented by a single line, with two lines slightly appart & side by side, where two faces of metal run together - and linked by a 'U' or an inverted 'U' [as appropriate] to signify a 180degree fold, things would be much much clearer. Obviously the drawing would need to be shown in large enough format for the separate lines to be visible.

 

Also showing the part in the flat is actually more confusing to my eye than showing it fully formed and with all the edgesclearly defined by a single line [as stated above].

 

Only a suggestion - but excellent work on the etchings though and a great article in MRJ.

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins,

Modern Motive Power

[Kempenfelt]

As I've had the pleasure of folding up one of these lever guards I hope I can offer some impartial feedback!

 

First of all I can understand that the diagrams and instructions alone may be a bit confusing however in my opinion it all becomes a lot clearer when you've got the etch in front of you. Interesting thoughts re the colouration and yes a single colour is probably a preferable option. My suggestion would be to go for a single lighter colour and perhaps a bright/contrasting colour showing the etch lines?

 

I’m afraid I have to disagree with the comment that the view of the prefolded etch is confusing. I feel it is necessary to have this view as a basis to compare with the etch. Also if the fold lines are made more pronounced then it helps to identify the correct way to hold the job and to ensure you make the fold in the right direction. I’m sure I must have tried folding an etch the wrong way in the past and with something as delicate as Craig’s brake lever etch you start to make life very difficult for yourself once you’ve weakened the fold.

 

One suggestion that has come to my mind is the possibility of having bendy arrow’s on the diagrams to show the direction of the fold, however would this be helpful or would it just crowd the diagram? Craig is it worth giving this a go and putting it up for people to comment on?

[Captain Kernow]

I've also done a few of these (the earlier batch), and I find the illustrations very helpful.

 

The earlier batch also had a spigot etched which could go through a hole drilled in the solebar to anchor the lever guard in place - well nigh essential in my view, but this appears to be absent in these later versions. I suppose one could solder something in place, but it would be a pity if that option was missing from the finished product?

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately Bill's bits aren't to scale, it'd be very obvious. The w-irons themselves are a bit out actually but I haven't got drawings yet of a BR cutout one to draw one exactly accurate. May have to go find one to take a rubbing of.

 

I'm hoping people will be able to get them at Scaleforum but I need to work out costings first.

Ah, not something that I would have considered a possibility if you hadn't said it. I'd just have trusted that someone with the experience and reputation of Mr Bedford would supply something that was correct?

[craigwelsh]

I've also done a few of these (the earlier batch), and I find the illustrations very helpful.

 

The earlier batch also had a spigot etched which could go through a hole drilled in the solebar to anchor the lever guard in place - well nigh essential in my view, but this appears to be absent in these later versions. I suppose one could solder something in place, but it would be a pity if that option was missing from the finished product?

 

No, the spigot is still there, I just didn't extrude it into the 3D model when I came up with these quickly to gauge feedback. Must admit I pin through the holes in the top as well as using that spigot on wooden underframes.

 

The ones you had really hadn't worked correctly whereas these and the ones Kempenfelt has fold up correctly with only a little tweaking at the end to make sure its all square.

 

Unfortunately Bill's bits aren't to scale, it'd be very obvious. The w-irons themselves are a bit out actually but I haven't got drawings yet of a BR cutout one to draw one exactly accurate. May have to go find one to take a rubbing of.

 

I'm hoping people will be able to get them at Scaleforum but I need to work out costings first.

Ah, not something that I would have considered a possibility if you hadn't said it. I'd just have trusted that someone with the experience and reputation of Mr Bedford would supply something that was correct?

The RCH w-iron is pretty much spot on, the BR one i'm not sure about but the fold over tie is in both cases too narrow compared to my scale tie bar and looks odd.

 

 

Thanks guys for the feedback, the pictures when zoomed in are a bit bigger but the clarity of them is an issue as AutoCAD exports/plots tend to show bad optimisation as soon as they are modified. I need to experiment a bit more to discover why that is. I can probably export the wireframe or a solid colour as well as change the angle or the projection to highlight the fold lines. Its all a learning curve for me and its worth trying to get it right to help people get the best chance at building these.

 

Thanks David for the comments on the article, i'm pleased how well its been received so far. Your range and kits are certainly inspiring examples of how good etched kits can be.

[iak]

As soon as you have the available Craig, expect an order for a few - top stuff!!B)

[craigwelsh]

As soon as you have the available Craig, expect an order for a few - top stuff!!B)

Shouldn't be long now, batch arrived yesterday and i've been bagging them. Once the invoice is sorted you'll be able to buy some.

 

Those with chassis needing levers pm me as I have a batch of those separate I can send out. Sadly I wont be at Wells this weekend and I don't know anyone in the area going there to deliver them either.

 

 

Is this any better for an instructional drawing?

[Colin parks]

Yeah i'd have to pin them if I put them in front to get the rivet detail.. I suppose I should move them really and chop off the superglued Bill Bedford bit.

 

I need to remove those axleboxes too, the more I look at them the more i'm convinced they are definitely too big!

 

Once i've got around to drawing the BR open iron I can finish the full underframes with the built in tie bars.

 

[edit] Fixed it now.

 

 

 

Hi Craig,

 

Just seen these pictures of the vanfit chassis.

 

The best compliment I can think of is: I would have thought this was an S7 model!

 

The refinements you have made to the chassis with your etches sets a new standard in 4mm modelling. Can working brakes be far behind?!

 

Colin

[craigwelsh]

Just seen these pictures of the vanfit chassis.

 

The best compliment I can think of is: I would have thought this was an S7 model!

 

The refinements you have made to the chassis with your etches sets a new standard in 4mm modelling. Can working brakes be far behind?!

Colin

Thanks Colin. Working brakes have actually been done before using the Masokits components http://clag.org.uk/wagonbrakes.html though the components then are a bit coarser than mine. It is possible for me to do an etch of separate parts for working brakes though they'd need to be insulated. Exactoscale do plastic brake blocks but they are a bit disappointing in detail considering what was possible with plastic. They look more layered than my etched ones rather than the flowing casting of the prototypes.

 

Making the morton clutches work would be possible but it'd certainly be a lot of fiddly cursing! I did work out how the vacuum linkage isn't actuated when using the handbrake while studying some detail at the Bluebell though. ITs not a detail anyone has done properly on a BR wagon before afaik.

 

On a related note i've just drawn up the remaining varieties of RCH door spring (they do act like 1/2 a leaf spring when the door is dropped). Only the LNER seems to have used the original 'wooden goods' type and it was actually crossed out with 'use wooden mineral' on my copies of the rch drawings. The steel ones are riveted closer together for the narrower 9" solebar and i've shown the two layers of the prototype on these drawings though it'd have to be etched in 6 thou to be accurate so i've compromised and just done the one layer on my 0.25mm etching.