Building an N gauge coach kit

[Etched Pixels]

I suspected that some of the Ultima LMS kits had an extruded roof but I could not find this in Alan's catalog as a separately available item. Maybe I missed it or maybe he is conserving his stocks to sell with complete kits.

 

You are correct on both points. It's basically not commercially viable in the UK to redo the extruded roofs any more and trying to do it via China is a whole barrel of laughs I don't want to get involved in. Actually it's not clear it was *ever* commercially viable given I believe that Cav'n'dish did the original extrusions and went under As it needs a new tool making you would basically have to buy it by the kilometre and a kilometre of aluminium roof profile is a lot of N gauge coaches !

 

Right now its tricky. 3D print is almost good enough for a lot more things, and that means its simply not commercially sensible to do things like refresh or automate old moulds, instead there's a certain amount of sitting on hands and trying not to run out of stuff involved before we get the next generation of 3D print off Shapeways and friends.

 

I am doing some 3D roof profiles and the polished ones are acceptable I think. Not quite as nice as moulded plastic but on the other hand you can put all those pesky vent-holes in the roof and save a ton of pain. A few folks will have seen and handled the upcoming Ultima LNER suburban roofs and I think the consensus is they are fine.

 

The old aluminium siphon roof profile however I have lots of so is listed likewise the old (no longer used in kits) aluminium floor.

 

Alan

[D869]

Thanks Alan - it's good to know what the situation is, even if it isn't exactly what we would want it to be.

 

I haven't used any 3D printed stuff as yet but no doubt I will do in the not too distant future... and I won't miss having to mark and drill vent holes.

 

Regards, Andy

[DavidK71]

It's taken quile a while, but the Hawksworth J18 sleeper is finally done:

 

 

The model has been finished in its original British Railways livery that these coaches wore when new, as number 9083. The real 9083 is at Didcot where it is slowly being restored, and has fairly recently been repainted and lined out, and very impressive it looks too.

 

This would have been done rather sooner, if I hadn't, after painting and lining it, discovered a problem with the compartment etched side: the attendant's window (on the far right) was missing, and the toilet window was where the attendant's window should have been. Alan at Ultima very helpfully redrew the side based on current photographs and had a new side etched, which I have used. Quality service!

 

While I think the six wheel bogies look great, I'm not sure I'll be making any more coaches that ride on such monsters. The coach is, it has to be said, quite curve shy. It will go round a Peco number 4 radius curve (which is about a 13" radius) but there is noticeably more resistance than on a straight, due to the wheels rubbing against the solebar. This is partly because I've tried to get my coaches to sit as low as is practical on the bogies, as it looks much more prototypical, but I guess is also partly a reflection of the truth that the real coaches wouldn't have been much use on tight curves anyway. Does anyone know what the rules were for minimum curves that twelve wheel coaches were allowed on? I haven't found much on anyone running twelve wheel coaches in N or 2mm, so I'd be interested to hear if anyone does. The only other such coaches I'm come across on RMWeb are wermy's thread (at http://www.rmweb.co....posite-sleeper/) on building an LMS sleeper, and Nigel Hunt's exquisite image of a scratchbuilt clerestory diner (http://www.rmweb.co....x-gswr-car-no3/). Has anyone else got a twelve wheeler?

[Etched Pixels]

If the bogies have the washers on them then the wheels clear the solebar and they do trainset curves reasonably happily. Gently opening out the middle axle a tiny bit also helps. However if you set them to prototypical clearances you get prototypical curvature 8)

[Karhedron]

It's taken quile a while, but the Hawksworth J18 sleeper is finally done:

 

Wow, that is some more really nice work you have done there. I keep holding off on the Ultima Hawksworths in the hope that Dapol may do some but you work is really tempting me to have a go at some.

 

Unless you are interested in some comission work?

Edited August 24, 2012 by Karhedron

[DavidK71]

On 24/08/2012 at 22:16, Karhedron said:

Unless you are interested in some comission work?

 

Thank you, but I think that the painfully slow speed at which I manage to complete these makes commision work unlikely ☹️. I think I started the sleeper back in November - in that time Coachman could produce an entire coach fleet!

Edited September 5, 2022 by DavidK71

[DavidK71]

One more post, this time of a coach I finished a little while back while waiting for the replacement side for the Hawksworth sleeper. Much earlier in this thread I posted about a Stanier 50' full brake that I'd done, but I was never completely happy with it - allthough it wasn't bad, there wasn't enough tumblehome on the sides, which detracted from the look of it, and the sides could have been more detailed. My original plan was to dismantle and strip it, but then I had the happy idea of selling it on eBay and building this as a replacement:

 

Nearly all my stock is Western region, so I'm not sure quite what this and the LMS CCT will do on the layout, once it gets built. Perhaps it'll be a small Midland region parcel train passing through ... 🙂

 

As usual, bogies are from the 2mm Association, with N gauge profile wheels. These close-up photographs emphasize that the roof rain-strips are too wide (1mm tape) but it doesn't look so obvious at normal viewing distances. I still wish I could find some thiner tape, though ...

 

That pretty much clears my workbench aside from the K22 full brake, on which painting is about to start.

Edited October 15, 2023 by DavidK71
Replace lost photograph

[queensquare]

More fabulous and inspiring work. I'm hoping it will spur me on to getting my numerous bare metal coaches finished.

 

Jerry

[Karhedron]

Nearly all my stock is Western region, so I'm not sure quite what this and the LMS CCT will do on the layout, once it gets built. Perhaps it'll be a small Midland region parcel train passing through ...

More super work there, especially considering that the original was not to shabby either.

 

Ex-LMS brakes were not unheard of on the western region. There are some shots of a class 22 at Instow with a very similar vehicle on a milk train somwehere. I will post a link if I can find it.

 

EDIT - Here we go.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5572041140/in/set-72157626256309045

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5572040854/in/set-72157626256309045/

Edited August 26, 2012 by Karhedron

[richbrummitt]

More fabulous and inspiring work. I'm hoping it will spur me on to getting my numerous bare metal coaches finished.

 

It's good to know that I'm not the only person with this affliction.

[DavidK71]

Ex-LMS brakes were not unheard of on the western region. There are some shots of a class 22 at Instow with a very similar vehicle on a milk train somwehere. I will post a link if I can find it.

 

Thank you, very interesting photographs. That is an impressively unloved class 22 ...

[Nig H]

I'm impressed by the very neat work you've produced with these coaches. In the past I have used an airbrush and Railmatch/ Phoenix paint over Comet 2-part primer, but I was never entirely happy with the resulting finish. The GSWR diner you mentioned above was a case in point, although one of the better ones. The other problem area is lining, and I was not happy with the results I got from transfers. I tried with bow pens but again the results weren't great. Now I get Ian Rathbone to paint and line my coaches, and he does a great job.

 

For the ribs on Stanier coaches, I cut thin strips of 5 thou plasticard and glue them in place. You should be able to get nearer 0.5mm or less- just cut a few and use the best ones. You need to be careful to get them square but its possible to move them around before the Mek pak dries. I start each rib against one side of the roof and get the strip square, then work over to the other side, and cut the strip to length with a good sharp knife. Leave the Mek pak to dry overnight then clean up with needle files or wet and dry paper. I'll put a picture of one of my coaches in my gallery to show the result, although having just looked at it, I'm not sure its that different to your BG roof.

 

For curved or straight rainstrips, I use 10 by 20 thou plastic strip, attached along the thin side. For LMS period 1 and 2 type coaches, I work out and mark the position of the strip in the middle of the roof and at the ends. Then hold the strip (cut over long)in position in the middle of the coach, and glue with a small amount of Mek pak, just at the centre. Allow the glue to dry a bit, then force one free end of the rainstrip down in position at the end of the roof and glue in place, then do the same for the other. Then carefully add Mek pak from the centre to the end, being careful not to move the trip. You may need to remove one or two slight kinks but should be easy enough as long as you add Mek pak sparingly. Once tack glued in position you can add more glue, the leave to dry overnight before thinning down the height and possibly thickness, with files and wet and dry. You may want to consider this technique for you GWR coaches.

 

One final point - you don't seem to gave added door knobs and grab handles in all cases, or have I missed them? Maybe you will consider doing this, but get the holes drilled before you attach the sides to the body, and allow for glazing too.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Nigel Hunt

[DavidK71]

Nigel, thank you for the explanation of your roof rainstrip technique, I will definitely give this a try.

 

On 28/08/2012 at 13:30, Nig H said:

One final point - you don't seem to gave added door knobs and grab handles in all cases, or have I missed them? Maybe you will consider doing this, but get the holes drilled before you attach the sides to the body, and allow for glazing too.

 

You are right, I haven't added knobs or grab handles to most of these coaches. When I first started building these coaches I wasn't confident that I could successfully attach them to the painted sides, so left them off. I try not to go back and rebuild kits once they're done - they're a record of my ability at the time, and if I started trying to correct every flaw I can see I'd never get anything new built. 🙂

 

Anyway, I think that I'm now ready to try tackling grab handles etc., so the next coach I build I will have a go. The next likely to be out of the pile to be built is a 70' toplight 3rd from Masterclass - that's a lot of grab handles!

Edited September 7, 2022 by DavidK71

[richbrummitt]

For curved or straight rainstrips, I use 10 by 20 thou plastic strip, attached along the thin side.

 

Is this because 0.010" square is not available? I use Slaters Microrod, which is available as 0.010", and employ a very similar technique. It requires much less filing and cleaning up, however if you get it too wet with solvent and pull it it can break apart.

 

I try not to go back and rebuild kits once they're done - they're a record of my ability at the time, and if I started trying to correct every flaw I can see I'd never get anything new built.

 

This sounds familiar too.

[Nig H]

 

 

Is this because 0.010" square is not available? I use Slaters Microrod, which is available as 0.010", and employ a very similar technique. It requires much less filing and cleaning up, however if you get it too wet with solvent and pull it it can break apart.

 

 

 

This sounds familiar too.

Yes that's right, so I end up having to do more filing to get the height down to c. 0.01". Maybe I will check my packets of microrod to see if I have any square 0.01" for the next coaches (3 BR Mk1 SKs).

 

Nigel

 

 

[richbrummitt]

Yes that's right, so I end up having to do more filing to get the height down to c. 0.01". Maybe I will check my packets of microrod to see if I have any square 0.01" for the next coaches (3 BR Mk1 SKs).

 

Microrod is round, but at that size it's tough to tell round from square after a couple of coats of paint.

[DavidK71]

After a few hiccups and problems, the K.22 full brake has escaped from the workbench:

 

As I had expected, painting proved to be a challenge, as the sides and floor formed one piece that was folded up to form the body shell. As a result, I couldn't use my usual approach of painting the sides and then attaching them as the final step. Instead, a lot of masking tape and touching up was needed.

 

The worst moment was removing the masking tape after spraying the top carmine line, which revealed a very obvious run. There was nothing for it but to strip the coach and try again. As it is glued rather than soldered, just dunking it in paint stripper would effectively take me back to the start, so I ended up carefully cleaning the sides with paint stripper and a large number of my other half's cotton wool buds. (Let's hope she never notices how many are now missing.) At least I've learnt that it is possible to strip the sides of such a coach without destroying the whole thing.

 

Lining and applying decals also revealed a rather awkward mistake. The running numbers should really be above the hand-rails, not below, just below the lining. Unfortunately I think I set the boundary between carmine and cream just a fraction of a millimetre too low. Combined with the fact that 2mm/N lining is, by it's nature, overscale, there wasn't room for the running number in it's proper place. Gah! I couldn't face stripping the coach (again) and trying to move the handrail, so I've settled for having the running number sit below the handrail. At least it's one thing I'll be ready for with any future toplight coaches.

 

After the saga of painting and lining, getting the roof to sit exactly right was also not entirely stress free. This roof is rolled brass, and in the end I resorted to gluing it to hidden supports in the coach, then putting weights on the roof to hold it in place for 24 hours. Thankfully it has stayed in place so far!

 

Despite all the above, I'm very pleased with the result - my first toplight coach. More to follow ...

Edited September 6, 2022 by DavidK71

[queensquare]

As usual, a really nice job. I find painting and lining much more of a challenge than building the coach - hence the large number I have still 'in the metal'!

 

Jerry

[D869]

A neat job as usual David. Painting and lining the top of the sides looks like a (ahem) fun job.

 

Regards, Andy

[Karhedron]

Another superb model there David. May I ask how you do the lining? I use ModelMaster transfers but I am always on the lookout for new ideas.

[DavidK71]

Painting and lining the top of the sides looks like a (ahem) fun job.

 

Oh yes, much fun was had!

 

Actually, the top of the sides posed an interesting question. Looking at pictures in Russell shows that the top crimson line was very thin indeed, and I had wondered about leaving it and the top lining off altogether. (The Great Western livery for toplights without lining above the windows was much more sensible.) In the end I added the crimon line and lining, partly because, relative to photographs, the strip above the windows is a bit too thick in this kit. It's noticeable that the unbuilt Masterclass toplights I have have a somewhat thinner strip above the windows, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do for those.

 

May I ask how you do the lining? I use ModelMaster transfers but I am always on the lookout for new ideas.

 

This was lined with the ModelMaster / NGS lining transfers. I have considerable respect for the people on here who manage to line with a bow-pen - I can't imagine ever being able to get that to work, especially on the uneven join between the crimson and cream paint.

 

My basic approach with the lining is to first give the side a coat of gloss varnish (actually Halfords lacquer spray) to get a good surface for it to sit on. To start with I brush MicroSet on the side, then put the transfer in warm water until it's ready to slide off. Sliding it off is the tricky bit - if I try to push it off the backing paper vertically I find I can never get it straight again, so I generally push the lining horizontally so a little bit is hanging off the left, get that lined up and on the side. Then I hold the left edge of the lining down against the side and draw the backing paper away to the right - if I do this in a smooth action generally the lining will rest on the side pretty nearly straight. I then use a cocktail stick and a brush to straighten any bumps in the lining. It's also sometimes necessary to run a thin brush coated in MicroSet underneath the lining if it won't move freely any more, which often happens to a section if it's left in place without being moved for more than a minute or two. Finally, run over it with a brush and then a piece of tissue paper to push out any final lumps.

 

One thing I've found that doesn't work well with the lining is MicroSol - that tends to make the lining curl up in the vertical direction. I generally just add a spot of MicroSol at the end on any recesses in the side (e.g. where the door edges are) but don't use it anywhere else.

 

I also take the view that lining transfers aren't that expensive, so if the first attempt doesn't work, take it off (with more MicroSet) and keep trying until the result is satisfactory.

Edited November 15, 2012 by DavidK71

[D869]

Actually, the top of the sides posed an interesting question. Looking at pictures in Russell shows that the top crimson line was very thin indeed, and I had wondered about leaving it and the top lining off altogether. (The Great Western livery for toplights without lining above the windows was much more sensible.) In the end I added the crimon line and lining, partly because, relative to photographs, the strip above the windows is a bit too thick in this kit. It's noticeable that the unbuilt Masterclass toplights I have have a somewhat thinner strip above the windows, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do for those.

 

This prompted me to go take a look in my books. Russell part 2 fig 106 is undated but shows a toplight FK that appears to be blood and custard. It still has its panelling and it seems that the top crimson band is confined to the raised panelling with the lining in the recessed part. I think this means that the crimson doesn't overlap the toplights at all but it's hard to be sure from this photo. 'GW Coaches in Colour' (Robertson) has a 1955 picture on page 26 which shows part of W3955W that has no panelling. On this one the crimson slightly overlaps the toplights and the top edge of the door.

 

The 1955 photo would suggest a nice weathering project too.

 

I think it's safe to say that this is not the livery that the GWR had in mind when they designed these coaches.

 

As an aside... Robertson's book also has a pic on page 32 showing a toplight panelled (possibly ex-camping) coach in BR chocolate and cream - this has the top brown band and lining in much the same manner as the panelled blood and custard coach in Russell.

 

Glad I'm not building any toplights in blood and custard

 

Regards, Andy

[DavidK71]

This prompted me to go take a look in my books. Russell part 2 fig 106 is undated but shows a toplight FK that appears to be blood and custard. It still has its panelling and it seems that the top crimson band is confined to the raised panelling with the lining in the recessed part. I think this means that the crimson doesn't overlap the toplights at all but it's hard to be sure from this photo. 'GW Coaches in Colour' (Robertson) has a 1955 picture on page 26 which shows part of W3955W that has no panelling. On this one the crimson slightly overlaps the toplights and the top edge of the door.

 

I hadn't noticed that that photo in "GW Coaches in Colour" before was of a toplight, thanks. Looking through Russell Appendix 1 it does seem that in general for steel no-panel toplights the crimson is slightly lower than the top of the toplights. Given the difficulties of representing such thin bands in 2mm / N I think an 'approximate representation' is the best we can hope for. A sneaky solution for at least one coach might be to put plasticard behind the toplights and fill them in with modelling putty, to represent the toplights being plated over.

 

Fortunately for me the Masterclass toplights I'm intending to do are steel without panelling, which should help a little. My intention is to build the coach with the sides attaching last, which would allow me to try leaving off the top crimson band to see how it looks - if the result is terrible the sides can be stripped and redone.

 

The 1955 photo would suggest a nice weathering project too.

 

It does look a bit unloved. Looking through Russell at all the photographs of somewhat tired first class toplight coaches, I'm struck that while the opporunity to ride in one today would be fabulous, if I'd paid for a first class ticket in 1955 or so I can't imagine I'd be too thrilled if a dirty old toplight pulled into the station. How times change ...

 

Glad I'm not building any toplights in blood and custard

 

If it was easy what would be the fun in that?

Edited November 15, 2012 by DavidK71

[Kris]

 

Glad I'm not building any toplights in blood and custard

 

 

I've got a few of them.

[DavidK71]

I've got a few of them.

 

How far have you got with them?