david.hill64 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Network Rail were reported in yesterday's Sunday Times as saying that there is no business case for electrification. What a shambles. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted April 1, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2019 As usual..there is no business case to make use of Network Rail... Baz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 13 hours ago, jamie92208 said: With the new Northern units arriving they will need stabling and maintenance facilities for them as presumably Ardwick is only for Siemens stock. Jamie I suspect they will continue to stable at Longsight and Stockport plus Newton Heath for the diesels as they do now, Allerton is there for maintenance and there will also be stabling at Wigan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 8 hours ago, david.hill64 said: Network Rail were reported in yesterday's Sunday Times as saying that there is no business case for electrification. What a shambles. No business case for electrification full stop, or just for the unwired parts of the Transpennine route ? Either way, surely it is then up to the Government to ensure that electrification goes ahead on environmental and network efficiency grounds ? 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Based upon 300% or 500% (depending on how you assess) over-budget of the GWML scheme, I doubt if any electrification is viable 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 1, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2019 11 hours ago, david.hill64 said: Network Rail were reported in yesterday's Sunday Times as saying that there is no business case for electrification. What a shambles. That's not quite what Andrew Haines said according to one report yesterday as his words were quoted as 'I can't see that electrification happening'. (whereas the Govt keeps saying it is happening). What is clear - from what has already been sold for scrap plus what is lying alongside the GWML as 'leftovers' is that quite a lot of electrification material has been allowed to go to waste or has been formally disposed of instead of being held as stock for future use. Judging by what can be seen alongside Western routes there are still plenty of fields being rented by NR eb ven where electrification work is complete. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 1, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2019 11 hours ago, david.hill64 said: Network Rail were reported in yesterday's Sunday Times as saying that there is no business case for electrification. What a shambles. Which is not a particular surprise. Lets consider the facts:- (1) NR have made a pigs ear of schemes so far with costs going well over budget and significant delays in completing those schemes not shelved by the DfT. Also an electrified line will have many more assets which require maintenance / inspection / repair than a bog standard one which relies on diesel traction. With NR under severe scrutiny by HM Treasury and under pressure to make savings , big electrification schemes are a distraction it doesn't need - particularly as some ministers are itching to smash it up in the name of 'competition forcing efficiencies'. (2) NR struggled with trying to maintain what they had in cost terms - which is why the DfT (via the ORR) told NR to focus more on mundane renewal work for the next control period. Unfortunately due to much stricter H&S rules, a busier railway meaning less opportunities to get in to work on the infrastructure and a significant shortage of qualified engineers / technicians (made worse by the contracting out model which is very infective when it comes to training up and retaining staff) costs are not going down and thus leaving less room for non core projects. (3) The Government have recently awarded the TPE contract which includes the introduction of brand new diesel / bi-mode stock. At a stroke this removes a key benefit of any electrification scheme (i.e. the promise of new rolling stock) for decades. Although the use of loco hauled stock does provide an element of wiggle room you have to ask why go to all the bother of putting up wires if passengers won't notice. (4) Full benefit cannot be achieved because freight haulage is a private matter and the FOCs have resisted all attempts to move away from the 'go anywhere diesel' model. With Rail freight margins wafer thin already, any attempts to 'force' FOCs to use electric power (other than the inherited BR restrictions on diesel freights over the likes of Shap) will simply result in more traffic lost to the roads. (5) The Government have latched onto the term 'digital railway' as a way of providing more capacity without more infrastructure. The technology to implement the proper digital railway is however not cheap (particularly the all singing all dancing in cab variant with no lineside signals. Even though seasoned observers and experts in the field are doubtful that the 20% capacity uplift is there, for ministers it makes a far more worthwhile investment (even if thats only because of the 'Its digital and new so it must be superior in every way' mentality) Ultimately, railway electrification is both expensive and disruptive to carry out but has an extremely long payback period (particularly if you ignore the 'soft' / environmental benefits which are difficult to put an accurate price on). With Governments in this country generally unable to see beyond the next election and dominated by an obsession with money (high share price, competition to achieve lowest cost, free markets, low tax, not upsetting the City bankers / lawyers / accountants) anything which is a very long term investment struggles to make it through the seemingly endless financial calculations unscathed. Whilst NRs track record does not inspire confidence the saying practice makes perfect is still relevant and if large scale electrification is ever to return it is essential that there is a continuous trickle of small to medium sized schemes to keep the necessary expertise available. The worry is that MPs / ministers / civil servants still do not understand this.... 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 1, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said: That's not quite what Andrew Haines said according to one report yesterday as his words were quoted as 'I can't see that electrification happening'. (whereas the Govt keeps saying it is happening). What is clear - from what has already been sold for scrap plus what is lying alongside the GWML as 'leftovers' is that quite a lot of electrification material has been allowed to go to waste or has been formally disposed of instead of being held as stock for future use. Judging by what can be seen alongside Western routes there are still plenty of fields being rented by NR eb ven where electrification work is complete. [Sarcasm mode on - not a dig at you mike] Get with the programme - as any accountant knows having inventory sitting on the shelf (or in a field in this case) represents capital tied up in things that are not being used. To a true free market thinker (i.e. those in the Treasury calling the shots these days) its far better to sell it off and increase the cashflow for that year / 'getting maximum value for the taxpayer' nonsense. (The fact that you may have to buy it back at a much higher price down the line is irrelevant to such types - and they will say if you invest the monies made from the sale wisely then you can make quite a bit extra cash on he side too. The fact that OLE parts are not the same things as shares / stock options / currency speculation seems lost on such types unfortunately). As to things the 'Government says are happening' - after the debacle we have seen in Westminster over the past 6 months why on earth would anyone trust a thing this Government says? Edited April 1, 2019 by phil-b259 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 1, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2019 4 hours ago, caradoc said: No business case for electrification full stop, or just for the unwired parts of the Transpennine route ? Either way, surely it is then up to the Government to ensure that electrification goes ahead on environmental and network efficiency grounds ? Get real - HM Treasury does not do anything solely on environmental or efficiency grounds. Anything they do has to be seen to have a positive business case - and unfortunately 'efficient' / 'environmental factors' are not easy to quantify in monetary terms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted August 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 20, 2019 Resurrecting this thread as Network Rail has put out a press release today fleshing out a little more of the detail of the work to be carried out between Leeds and Huddersfield. The press release is here. There was a news piece on Look North this evening too for anyone wanting to see it on catch up. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted August 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 20, 2019 Around Stalybridge (towards Ashton and Guidebridge) many places have had a ~1m square box, with a large cross in it, painted in places like the Platforms and along the ballast. I have taken these to be the positions where the OH masts are going to go. They seem to have the right clearance and spacing but I'm just guessing really. Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 20 minutes ago, SHMD said: Around Stalybridge (towards Ashton and Guidebridge) many places have had a ~1m square box, with a large cross in it, painted in places like the Platforms and along the ballast. I have taken these to be the positions where the OH masts are going to go. They seem to have the right clearance and spacing but I'm just guessing really. Kev. Most likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted August 20, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Titan said: Most likely. I suspect that they mark where trial pits need to be dug to fi d out if there are any cables in the way before masts are erected. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted August 20, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 20, 2019 3 hours ago, 4630 said: Resurrecting this thread as Network Rail has put out a press release today fleshing out a little more of the detail of the work to be carried out between Leeds and Huddersfield. The press release is here. There was a news piece on Look North this evening too for anyone wanting to see it on catch up. With no mention of freight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted August 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ColinK said: With no mention of freight. Yes, that was disappointing. You’d have thought that Network Rail would at least have mentioned the increase in capacity for all rail users in the press release. The tracks between Heaton Lodge Junction west of Mirfield and Thornhill LNW Junction at Ravensthorpe are busier with freight now than at anytime in the last 25 years. Both in the number of freight trains that run regularly and also the tonnage over the route. Edited August 20, 2019 by 4630 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 58 minutes ago, ColinK said: With no mention of freight. 46 minutes ago, 4630 said: Yes, that was disappointing. You’d have thought that Network Rail would at least have mentioned the increase in capacity for all rail users in the press release. The tracks between Heaton Lodge Junction west of Mirfield and Thornhill LNW Junction at Ravensthorpe are busier with freight now than at anytime in the last 25 years. Both in the number of freight trains that run regularly and also the tonnage over the route. Press releases are for Joe Public who care about regularity of trains, punctuality and cleanliness. Four tracking, grade seperated junctions will all benefit freight users, even the wiring if it means faster stopping services. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 20, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 20, 2019 1 hour ago, ColinK said: With no mention of freight. Freight doesn't vote in elections - people do! NR has come under significant criticism from the politicians for not doing enough to keep passengers satisfied - witness blame for the big timetable fiasco dumped on NR despite the DfT having been complicit in letting it happen by their total inaction despite plenty of warning it was all goin to end in tears. Its clear to me from various internal communications that the route director for the Southern region - and indeed the CEO of NR are very much 'passenger focussed' 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Detailed TransPennine £2.9bn rail upgrade plans unveiled Under the plans, stations at Huddersfield, Deighton, Mirfield and Ravensthorpe will be revamped, with the latter having either a bridge or tunnel built to separate two sections of the track. Network Rail said the proposed major overhaul and electrification work would be carried out on an 8-mile (13km) section of the route, with the "first round" of consultations starting with those living closest to the railway. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-49404824 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 I wonder what this will do for TPE and whether this would be enough wires to use a class 93 on, say, Liverpool - Scarborough? Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted August 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2019 I welcome the announcement and hope that the eventual work gets done quickly. It' just a bit ironic that the whole route from Stalybridge to Leeds used to be effectively 4 tracks. During the time I lived at Gildersome (79 to 2018) much of the Leeds New Line was filled in or used for housing, though the major damage had been done before that. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted August 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2019 It will be interesting what they propose to do about Staylybridge to Huddersfield. I watched the 3rd and 4th tracks being removed in 71/72. Ironically this allowed easing of curves on the remaining lines and that reduced journey times. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Electrifying 8 miles in the middle of the route seems like an odd thing to do. I doubt that'd have any beneficial effect on the local services. Though it will make finishing the job a matter of a couple of small infill schemes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Zomboid said: Electrifying 8 miles in the middle of the route seems like an odd thing to do. I doubt that'd have any beneficial effect on the local services. Though it will make finishing the job a matter of a couple of small infill schemes. 8 miles on its own would be stupid, not least because it would need its own highly expensive feeder station or a 25kV cable from elsewhere. I believe the intention is to electrify from Huddersfield through to Leeds but not west of Huddersfield (where of course the gradients would give the greatest performance benefit...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Reading the press release I see you're right, it is Leeds to Huddersfield that'll be electrified. Which should allow some local trains to change to electric. That'll need a new feeder station, I'd have thought. But it is a sensible sized project. Huddersfield to Manchester and Leeds to the ECML would be logical follow ons, which no doubt won't get consideration until about 2044. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Does seem a strange way to go about it!. What sort of win could be had by electrifying from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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