Karhedron Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hello, I am trying to find pictures of 7804 Baydon Manor in the late 40s and early 50s. Apparently in 1948 Swindon turned out 7804 in unlined green for piloting the Cornish Riviera over the Devon banks. However the the loco seems to have been remarkably camera-shy during its time in the west country as I have only been able to find a few photos of it from that period and none show the livery clearly. By the mid-50s it had moved to Camarthen and photos from then show it in very grimy condition. I suspect that along with the rest of the class it received coat of unlined black when it went to Swindon for blastpipe modifications between 1952-1954. Does anyone know of any pictures of 7804 from its time as pilot for the CRE? In particular I would like to know what tender markings it carried. The painting date of 1948 suggests it pre-dates the early BR crest. Was it left blank and the crest applied later? Or did it carry "British Railways" on the side as many locos painted at this time did? If so, what style was the lettering? If anyone can help with this I would be very happy to hear from you. I have ordered a couple of photos from the kidderminster railway archive which are from the right period and might show the livery details but knowing how fickle such old photos can be I would like to cast my net as wide as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2012 Have you looked in the book 'Collett Granges and Manors' by Roy Hobbs page 68 .I've modelled mine on 7804 but with GWR on tender when she was a west country engine.Like you say she's camera shy and I'd like to see photos on the South Devon banks too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Thanks, I will take a look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi Karhedron, Sorry for coming in a bit late on this one, but like yourself the whole 7804 livery enigma has vexed me over the years as well. From the available data and published photo's that I have seen, we can piece together the following. Much of this stems from the personnal observations of Eric Youlden and the caveat that the dates on photographs are accurate. Baydon Manor's stay at Laira was from July 1948 to June 1954. She arrived in Devon following a General at Swindon in unlined GW Green. This is confirmed by the photo in Peto's of her from June 1949 with no smokebox numberplate. The next photo I can find of her is dated September 1950 in British Railways Steaming on the Western Region Vol.4, where whilst definately still unlined, she appears to have red backed name and number plates. This would suggest black as the livery but I wouldn't discount the possibility of green with red plates if the story of her being Laira's pet engine are true. Just discernable on this photo is what appears to be a G on the tender, which would also back the green livery theory. Heavy General's followed at Swindon in August 1951 and again in January 1955, by which time plain black with the early crest would almost certainly have been applied. Hope this adds something to your own research and it would be great to be able to put this myth to bed once and for all. Regards, Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have received some photos from the Kidderminster Railway archive and sadly they do not help solve the mystery. Although both show Baydon Manor on CRE pilot duty in the early 50s, both are too indistinct to make out anyn livery details, not even the markings on the tender. Baydon Manor's stay at Laira was from July 1948 to June 1954. She arrived in Devon following a General at Swindon in unlined GW Green. This is confirmed by the photo in Peto's of her from June 1949 with no smokebox numberplate. I will see if I can get a look at Peto's from the library, sadly I don't have my own copy. Can you tell me if the photo shows any tender markings? The next photo I can find of her is dated September 1950 in British Railways Steaming on the Western Region Vol.4, where whilst definately still unlined, she appears to have red backed name and number plates. This would suggest black as the livery but I wouldn't discount the possibility of green with red plates if the story of her being Laira's pet engine are true. Just discernable on this photo is what appears to be a G on the tender, which would also back the green livery theory. I would also agree that green with red plates is a possibilty, I have seen a suprising number of ex-GWR engines with red number plates. The mention of a 'G' on the tender is interesting. I wonder if it was painted in post-war "GWR" style? This would be a simple answer although I thought most locos stopped receiving GWR lettering in 1948. Heavy General's followed at Swindon in August 1951 and again in January 1955, by which time plain black with the early crest would almost certainly have been applied. Most likely. As far as I have been able to determine, the entire class received unlined black with the early crest when they passed through Swindon for blastpipe modifications in the early 50s. Just had a look at a photo in Haresnape's book and there is a picture of 7804 at OOC in August 1950 (well away from its usual stomping grounds). While the tender markings are not shown, it appears as though the loco has black number and nameplates (as far as one can tell from a B&W photo). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I will see if I can get a look at Peto's from the library, sadly I don't have my own copy. Can you tell me if the photo shows any tender markings? There are not that many photo's of 7804 in Peto's (funny old thing). Those that are show: p21. Ealing Broadway circa 1939 - Unlined Green (GWR Monogram) p35. Exeter-Plymouth exchange working 20 June 1949 - Unlined Green (tender marking not identifiable) p74. Tigley 27 June 1951 - Unlined Green/Black (tender marking not identifiable) That's your lot I'm afraid. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 I have just got hold of a nice clear photo of Baydon Manor taken at Oakhampton in 1949. To my suprise the tender has no markings at all. The loco is still in near-GWR condition with the number painted on the bufferbeam and no smokebox plate. It looks like the reason I could not make out tender markings on the earlier photos was that there are none to make out. I have been toying with the idea of modelling this loco, it looks like starting with a shirtbutton model would be easiest as there is the least to remove from the tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Norman Lockett Archive -Western Region Steam 1950-1965 Page 52. As Andy M points out 7804 was transferred to Plymouth Laira from Bristol May 1948. There were two manors allocated to Newton Abbot at various times including 7813/4. All were sent to replace the last of the Bulldogs which, at nearly 50 years old, were past there best, and only survived that long due to WWII. the latter two Manors are less camera shy, with several published shots. It was common for Hall's, Granges & prairie tanks to share the pilot duties during this time and continued to do so long after all the Manors had been moved. During the 50's, there was a period where the King would come off the CRE at Newton abbot and be replace by two fresh engines that would continue into Cornwall non stop. A published shot (30/6/57) shows 7820/6845 on the CRE whilst the King was attached to the following Plymouth express, also King hauled giving the rare sight of 6013/28 double heading. On summer Saturdays, the CRE was often run in several sections. The main Penzance train was restricted to 10 coaches and the King was permitted to run unassisted up the Devon banks. One gem for the 4mm brigade, if you happen to own the Bachamn model, on 12/9/57 3440 City of Truro was used as a pilot for 6015 on the Devon banks to get it to Plymouth for use on a special the following day. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted April 4, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 4, 2019 I have also been searching for a 1947 photo of this loco, without success. Could one of you with the 1949 photo confirm a detail please? id like to know what type of buffers it was fitted with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 22 hours ago, The Fatadder said: I have also been searching for a 1947 photo of this loco, without success. Could one of you with the 1949 photo confirm a detail please? id like to know what type of buffers it was fitted with. Although built with tapered buffers, 7804 appears to be one of the early class members to receive the parallel replacements, probably during its General at Swindon in June 1948. In the 1949 image of it in Peto's, they certainly look like the later design of buffers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted April 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 5, 2019 42 minutes ago, Andy M said: Although built with tapered buffers, 7804 appears to be one of the early class members to receive the parallel replacements, probably during its General at Swindon in June 1948. In the 1949 image of it in Peto's, they certainly look like the later design of buffers. Thanks for that, it certainly sounds likely that they were fitted during that heavy overhaul (in which case my model in 1947 condition is correctly fitted with taper buffers. I don't suppose anyone has a record as to when 7804 last went to the works for a major overhaul prior to 1948? The loco is not listed in GWRJ no7 as one of the Manors which received wartime black, but I would be interested to hear if it received major work in 42/43/44 which would have most likely resulted in a coat of black paint. Certainly there were a fair few locos which received unbranded GWR Green / British Railways in GW script in 1948 that were changed from black.... My Mitchell / Comet kit is getting very close to entering the paint shop and I will soon need to make the final decision as to green or black... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 2 hours ago, The Fatadder said: I don't suppose anyone has a record as to when 7804 last went to the works for a major overhaul prior to 1948? The loco is not listed in GWRJ no7 as one of the Manors which received wartime black, but I would be interested to hear if it received major work in 42/43/44 which would have most likely resulted in a coat of black paint. Certainly there were a fair few locos which received unbranded GWR Green / British Railways in GW script in 1948 that were changed from black.... The Register quotes: 20/12/39 Swindon Intermediate 04/04/42 Swindon Light 30/07/42 Swindon Intermediate 10/12/42 Swindon Light 23/02/44 Swindon Light 19/01/46 Swindon Intermediate 16/06/48 Swindon General 06/06/50 Swindon Light Casual Its first Heavy General overhaul did not occur until 22/08/51, obviously again at Swindon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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